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Old January 14, 2010, 06:22 PM   #26
bigJ
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I'll be prepared to keep fighting until my opponent is out of the fight, regardless of whether I think he should have quit with the first hit.
I strongly agree with Pax. If we have reached the point where force is required we can't depend on the human body to obey what research claims to be unassailable fact. Every human being is different and the will to live, to fight on, is as different as snowflakes. Just because I carry enough stopping power by the book doesn't mean the criminal has read the book! Shot placement is critical and remains so until the fight is over.
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Old January 14, 2010, 06:24 PM   #27
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Tourist - you bring up a great point. Because I spend most of my time showing folks how to shoot straight, I pre-suppose that the situation dictates lethal force.

I don't currently spend much time discussing methods to de-escalate or pacify an encounter. I also didn't intend the post to be interpreted as keeping someone safe.

I hoped that folks could take an objective look at the handgun/round they use for self-defense from the perspective of performance and accuracy versus macho testosterone. I know I'm guilty of it... I still call a 1911 a "man's gun" and carry a .45 ACP as often as I can because I like the idea of having those big beer kegs loaded in the magazine.

If you've made the decision to carry (and defend yourself if the situation dictates), be prepared for the fight to continue even after you've inflicted lethal damage to your attacker unless you severely damage the central nervous system.

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Old January 14, 2010, 07:22 PM   #28
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To the Turist, I'm not sure where you are from, but here in NY if you kick in someone's door your going to be greeted with lead flying. I'd say that goes for most of the country as well.
Shot placement is key. So is practice. So is knowing the laws of the state you are in as to when they think "deadly force" is allowed.
I pray to God that I never have to use any weapon to protect myself, my family or others from harm, but I gauren-damn-tee you I'll be prepared when that time comes.
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Old January 14, 2010, 09:22 PM   #29
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With all due respect, how do you "know" this?
How indeed? Observation.
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Old January 15, 2010, 07:57 PM   #30
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It's easy, from the comfort of an easy chair, to have an opinion about what humans will or won't do under stress. But human reactions are a little more varied than our expectations generally allow.
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I'll be prepared to keep fighting until my opponent is out of the fight, regardless of whether I think he should have quit with the first hit.
Well said Pax.
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Old January 16, 2010, 08:00 AM   #31
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Fact is its been documented many mortally wounded have lived long enough to take out their adversary. The Miami shootout was a good example of the will to fight on on both sides. Drugs can have a tremendous impact on the body and mind to do keep going through seemingly impossible wounds, a problem in current day Afghanistan and Iraq. Adrenaline can act in a similar fashion, enabling the human body to endure or perform what seems to be incapable feats.

I think the term 1 shot stop is a misnomer, I believe many of these are do the fact the person WANTS or WILLS to give up or stop. Defeat can be as much psychological as it is physical, or both. All we can really do is attempt to prevent ourselves from being put in a situation to use lethal force. Then if we find ourselves in this situation pick the caliber and gun we are most proficient with and train/practice until we are satisfied with our ability.

Some shootouts are a matter of luck or fate, but through our actions we can try to minimize this. An ambush is likely the most difficult to defend and your fate depends largely on the ability and determination of the perp in the initial act, but what you do after can be the difference between life or death.
I put as much if not more effort in the act of prevention as I do defense. Avoiding the fight if at all possible is paramount.
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Old January 16, 2010, 08:31 AM   #32
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I think the term 1 shot stop is a misnomer, I believe many of these are do the fact the person WANTS or WILLS to give up or stop. Defeat can be as much psychological as it is physical, or both.
Absolutely. All else equal a highly motivated, a well trained policewoman or soldier will fight on while 3rd rate gang member-terrorist wannabe will crumple like a house of cards from the same wounds. Drugs and other factors are game changers as they distort the person's sense of reality.

Of course just because the soldier did not get up and fight on does not mean he was not motivated. The body can only take so much.
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Old January 16, 2010, 10:32 AM   #33
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Defeat can be as much psychological as it is physical, or both.
Excellent point. Some people would take a .22 skimming their leg and immediately give up. Others won't stop until they can go no longer. In my humble opinion this is why the more familiar one is with a given firearm, the more time spent using firearm, the higher the survivability rate climbs. Nothing beats sheer will and determination but you can help it along.
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Old January 16, 2010, 11:12 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Jedburgh
great point...Because I spend most of my time showing folks how to shoot straight, I pre-suppose that the situation dictates lethal force.
One of the things we don't ponder enough is that owning a firearm also means "not to shoot it." There are numerous 'Shoot/Don't Shoot' training videos available to sworn LEOs to uncover this very concern.

Besides, this "when in doubt, kill" mindset...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanJ[/quote
To the Turist, I'm not sure where you are from, but here in NY if you kick in someone's door your going to be greeted with lead flying.
Like any free man, I choose for me, you choose for you. Is that the person you want to be? Is that the world you wish to build?

We should consider drawing a firearm the most serious and life changing choice we make, not a knee-jerk reaction. About +/-two weeks ago a few "professional" athletes pulled out pistols in a locker-room to impress and dramatize a point of discussion. My first inclination was that their mommies didn't love them enough.

Frankly, I don't need the kharma or the PTSD. My SD pistol is a last-ditch option. Truth be told, we both know what to do in that situation, and I do not wish to live under that dark cloud.
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Old January 16, 2010, 11:52 AM   #35
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I believe many of these are do the fact the person WANTS or WILLS to give up or stop. Defeat can be as much psychological as it is physical, or both.
This was part of the core message in my post. As you defend yourself, you won't be in control of when your attacker decides to give up (if ever). You won't have control over any your attacker's decisions.

You will have control over the caliber weapon in your hands, and you will have control over shot placement. The issue is training. You have to bring enough gun and then employ it in such a manner to quickly incapacitate your attacker. If you are unable to achieve effects against the CNS, be prepared for the fight to continue long after you think it ought to.

My hope is that with good info, we can all train better and train smarter to survive a lethal encounter.

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Old January 16, 2010, 11:57 AM   #36
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I do think we are over MATHING (or phyics; call it what you wish) the CCW thing and over looking reality.

We all know in any shooting, be it SD, Combat, or Hunting, The biggest bullet going as fast as possible hitting the right spot is BEST. We also know that no two identical bullets from identical guns hitting an identical targets are going to react the same way.

All the above are GIVENS. Now I like a 1911a1. I've used them in combat. They work. They are big, they are heavy, and for the normal person, uncomfortable to conceal. If I was to carry a pistol in combat, I'd want the 1911.

I also like the 357, I carried one for most of my 20 years in LE. (Model 28 Smith). Its big, its heavy and for the normal person, hard to conceal. If I was go to go back into LE I would pick the Model 28.

But I'm old, I'm retired, I wont do either. I wont be putting on LBEs or a Pistol basket weave gear anymore. If you have been in my situation you would know the ache of the hips from carrying a heavy revolver day in and day out. I wont do that now.

But I do carry a revolver, a 642 in my pocket, I've tried the heavy revolver and the M1911 but found it was left on the mantle or in the truck. WE have to comformise. We dont (or shouldnt) design our lives around our pistol/revolver, we adjust the carry to match our lives. Reality forces us to comformise. Something we carry without thought. I dont try to match my holster or revolver with my wardrobe. I dont grab my gun when I leave the house, I dont have pistols stragity placed around the house not kwowing where I will be if a revolver is needed. Its in my pocket. I dont switch guns to match my activity. I dont carry one gun for keeping rattlers out of the yard where my grandkids are playing. I dont carry a seperate gun for camp meat when camping, I dont carry a seperate revolver to dispatch wounded game when hunting. I carry my pocket pistol.

I want a gun that I dont know is there unless I need it, and then its always in the same spot, with my pocket knife, keys, etc. yet as big as possibe.

I think we should stick to reality. Pick a pistol/revolver that we can carry without knowing we are carrying. We need to get away from the ideal that we have to walk around like swat or spc ops, when we go about our daily non military, non LE lives. You've seen it in these fourms, tactical guns, tactical knives, tactical watches, how much ammo should I carry etc etc.

The question should be what is practical, what is reality. Seriouly if some people carried what they say they carried, and fell in the creek while fishing, its over.

Get the biggest bullet you can reasonable carry, practice as much and humanly possible and get real.

JMHO
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Old January 16, 2010, 06:28 PM   #37
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WE have to comformise.
I LIKE that word, Kraig. I comformised by going to a 3 inch 1911. Seems everything I tried, I kept coming back to good ol 1911. So I just got a smaller and lighter one. Lucky me, it's what I shoot best, including the full size.
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Old January 16, 2010, 08:13 PM   #38
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Wow this is heavy when you actualy have 10 seconds and the range with-in 10 ft. which most confrontations occur.
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Old January 16, 2010, 10:46 PM   #39
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All else equal a highly motivated, a well trained policewoman or soldier will fight on while 3rd rate gang member-terrorist wannabe will crumple like a house of cards from the same wounds.
It works the other way around too, as Platt and Matix (well, Platt anyway) demonstrated all too clearly -- and as, on another day, officers Linda Lawrence and Steve Chaney so tragically discovered.

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Old January 16, 2010, 11:03 PM   #40
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This thread brings up an often over-looked aspect of what will likely occur during a gunfight. That aspect is: the time frame in which well placed shots to the center of mass from a relatively powerful defensive cartridge will incapacitate a human threat when those bullets do not strike the spinal cord or the brain. Ten (10) seconds sound like a good average that a fatally wounded human threat can continue to act against you with life threatening actions assuming that the threat is armed.

Most of my training was on either standing still and engaging a target right there in front of me from 3 yards to 25 yards, or some movement out doors or in house clearing. None of the training was about moving to cover or even concealment.

Unfortunately, I suspect that most of us have unconsciously internalized to some extent the thousands of fictional shootings portrayed before our eyes on TV and the movies. Even though we know that it is not real, we still have it effect our expectations. This is a bad thing.

We must not expect a human threat (that we decide must be engaged with deadly force) will stop at the sight of a gun, or even when we deliver two well placed shots to the center of mass to become immediately incapacitated.

I believe it is prudent to train with the expectation that even if you do your part by choosing the most powerful defensive handgun you can competently handle and deliver well placed shots to the center of mass; the threat will continue for many seconds more.

Another reason to avoid the use of deadly force if at all possible.
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Old January 17, 2010, 07:27 PM   #41
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From a physiological/anatomical basis it seems to be true that a person will not go into syncope (loss of consciousness) for quite a few seconds even if the heart effectively ceases to act as a viable pump and cerebral blood flow is abruptly stopped. My specialty is not cardiology but I seem to remember from my days in medical school and early residency that given an arrhythmia that stops effective cardiac output, such as with a 3rd degree heart block or with Ventricular Fibrillation for example, a person will go into syncope in around 6-8 seconds.

With a combatant in a violent encounter you would have to also take into account their activated sympathetic nervous system (fight or flight, plus or minus the effects of a simpathomimetic agent such as cocaine, meth-amphetamine, or even epinephrine (apparently some terrorists medicate themselves with epinephrine before fire fights)) and the resultant vasoconstriction that would sustain their blood pressure for quite a few more seconds beyond that.

I think it is hard to predict exactly how many seconds an aggressor will continue to function effectively after having his cardiovascular pump destroyed, in some part due to some of the variables listed above, but interestingly, I think back in the civil war they used to call it "the dead man's 10 seconds".

Furthermore, even a hit to the spinal cord will not ensure that an aggressor will be incapacitated enough not to return fire. It depends on where the spinal cord is hit. In simple terms a hit below the cervico-thoracic junction (lowest part of the neck, where the thorax begins) will still enable upper extremity function, and while the aggressor will fall down in a paraplegic state, they will still be able to use their upper extremities and therefore will still retain the potential to activate a firearm/weapon.

This is of course assuming that bullet placement and penetration even allows for hitting these vital structures.

Oh and I forgot: As far as "knock down" power, here's The Myth Busters.
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Old January 17, 2010, 10:21 PM   #42
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Jedburgh -

Ive been on your website and its obvious that you have done a good bit of home work and know a thing or two.

One thing that you left out of your comprehensive information (on your site) is the fact that a lot of people (about 50%) who take a bullet immediately fall to the ground. The reason for this has little if anything to do with stopping power but alot to do with how people think and what they think a person is suppose to do if they get hit by a bullet. The reality is many BG's could continue the bad fight if they were smart enough to know that a hit didn't have to equate with halting the confrontation, some do continue even when fatally hit (as you pointed out about heart shots).

Some BG's are determined enough or smart enough or maybe dumb enough to not drop to the floor the instant they get hit. This can be because they didn't realize they were hit because the adrenaline blocked the reception of pain, the hit was non vital and they shrugged it off or drugs or any other number of factors.

I would agree with you that aim and precision far and away trumps bullet size but I still think you need a reasonable size round.

A lot of people have never been in close quarter combat and dont realize that at times even highly trained people can loose fine motor control during a gun fight and that they need to train to fight without the level or refinement they would typically have at a range. You need a high level or training and thinking and a good amount of muscle memory and spatial and situational awareness to maximize your odds.

Good solid web site .
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Old January 18, 2010, 04:10 PM   #43
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BGutzman - Thanks for feedback. I totally agree with you about having "enough gun" during a gunfight.

I actually haven't seen any data about how often someone falls to the ground after being shot. If you've seen anything that looks credible, please shoot me a PM or email. I'd love to incorporate it into my training programs.

The reason I'm so motivated to discuss these types of issues is that I'm worried that most firearms programs train for single or maybe double shot engagements with general COM points of aim.

If you've made the decision to carry, you're preparing yourself for a worst case scenario (having to employ lethal force). During your training, you should likewise prepare for worst case. Your attacker will be motivated and you'll need precision shooting to go with your handgun.

Thanks.

DOL
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Old January 18, 2010, 05:17 PM   #44
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I've been through a fair amount of training for civilians and none of them emphasized a single or double tap and stop. It's usually shoot them till they stop doing whatever bad thing is a problem. Steve Moses said it succinctly - Shoot 'em into the ground.

Failure to stop drills are drilled into you. The only one shot mantra is when you have multiple opponents and then a shot into each is suggested.

So who teaches just a one shot only approach?
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Old January 18, 2010, 05:31 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
So who teaches just a one shot only approach?
I'm unaware of a professional shooting school that teaches it, but considering where I live, I might try to limit the number of times I fired.

Might sound silly, but if I put 13 shots into a guy going ballistic on drugs, then I reloaded and fired another 13 times to finally put him down, my guess is that I might have some explaining to do to the DA.

We all know better. One gun rag told a story about a guy who was drug free--just very angry--and he took 33 hollowpoints and one 12 gauge slug, survived and stood trial.
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Old January 18, 2010, 07:18 PM   #46
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Long time ago Jeff Cooper, who advocated the SA .45 1911, posed the question. Which is harder to do, hit someone once or hit someone several times?

He believed in shooting doubles but not 'machine-gunning' ones opponent due to time and ammo constraints (not to mention wondering where all those missed rounds landed.)

And thus he felt one should use the most powerful handgun you could shoot and still control. The key word is control.

Clout .vs. control always has been a dilemma.

But yes, I'd tend to shoot only a few rounds and 'assess', as such teachers as Chuck Taylor teaches.
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Old January 18, 2010, 08:40 PM   #47
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I want a gun that I dont know is there unless I need it, and then its always in the same spot
+1
the hospital i work in in has a no guns policy. alot of folks here know i carry, but as long as the don't actually see a gun, they mind their own business. this forces me to carry as small as possible and spend alot of time working on shooting skills. i carry a sig .380 now. i would rather be carrying my defender, but the gun i'm wearing is much better than the one i have to leave in the car!
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Old January 18, 2010, 11:50 PM   #48
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Jedburgh -

It may take me a day or two but I will find the data again (I do believe it was FBI data) Let me get back to you.
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Old January 19, 2010, 05:57 AM   #49
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Thank you sir.

DOL
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Old January 19, 2010, 07:50 AM   #50
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Rehashing the Stopping Power

This thread is a continuation of the old Stopping Power whizzing contest. Now would be a good time to close it. IMO
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