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Old January 16, 2010, 04:56 PM   #1
SPUSCG
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What makes people shoot low with a double action trigger?

One friend got a DAO auto, another his first wheelgun. both shoot low with them when there good with single action guns. Is there a specific reason for this? The first pistol i shot was a DAK and i didnt have this.
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Old January 16, 2010, 04:58 PM   #2
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They might be overmuscling the trigger for the heavy and/or long pull and consequently influencing the gun, possibly dipping the muzzle. Too used to light triggers perhaps, your friends? Just one possibility I suppose.
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Old January 16, 2010, 05:22 PM   #3
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One shot mostly SA or DA/SA autos, one was a glock/xd guy.
I shoot mostly high and right in DA.
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Old January 16, 2010, 08:05 PM   #4
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Subconscious anticipation of the recoil. Longer trigger pull gives too much time to think about what's comin ...
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Old January 16, 2010, 11:22 PM   #5
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Probably several reasons depending on the person.

I've noticed with DA/SA autos that the backlash of the trigger after the sear let off tends, due to the now lack of resistance, for people to dip the barrel downwards.

That and the lack of practice with DA/SA shooting skills leads to those who can shoot well SA, but not well DA.

I think that's the main reason. DA revolver shooters don't have near the problems with that as a DA/SA shooter.
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Old January 16, 2010, 11:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
SPUSCG

What makes people shoot low with a double action trigger?
It may be a complex set of reasons. One is the long trigger pull of a double action compared to a single action semi like a 1911. The index finger is flexed by a muscle which can act with the other fingers holding the grip of the pistol. So that when the shooter contracts the index finger, he/she also to some extent flexes the other finger causing the pistol to move off target.

A shooter can overcome this tendency by repetitive training to address this issue. Placing an object (like a coin) on the barrel or slide of the gun, balance it there while maintaining the sight picture and dry firing the gun can help.
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Old January 16, 2010, 11:39 PM   #7
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My guess would be anticipation then compensation.
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Old January 17, 2010, 12:20 AM   #8
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There is a funny thread on here from a while back from a guy that shot a hole straight through the front of a brand new chronograph! Story was he has been shooting through his chrony with his DA revolver in single action and with his last shot of the day he decides to shoot one shot dual action. He pushed the barrel down in anticipation of the shot and blasted the chronograph!
If I find the old thread I will post a link.

VL
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Old January 17, 2010, 03:56 AM   #9
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"... both shoot low with them when there(SIC) good with single action..." DA isn't the same as SA.
There's a shot placement analyse .pdf here too. http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf.html
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Old January 17, 2010, 04:07 AM   #10
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Training?

I did have a guy on my team that would manually cock his Beretta 92F because his first shot was so god-awful on DA. He had little girly hands so maybe that contributed.

DOL
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Old January 17, 2010, 07:23 AM   #11
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I also feel its a combination of things either together or independent, heavy pull, gritty pull, still pulling after the sear has released, flinching ( can send them anywhere ) or jerking downward, all are especially worse the smaller the gun.
This is why so many people are much more accurate with a decent S/A type trigger or triggers like the XD and Glock.

Because I was shooting back in the day, I cut my teeth on revolvers because reliable semi's using hollow point ammo were not abundant outside of some 1911's or browning Hi-power's. I got used to and was conditioned to the D/A action due to the revolver being the gun of the time. Today many shooters rarely train on or even have a true D/A weapon.

I think in a true life and death situation most people might be better off with a XD type trigger as long as the pull isn't too light. Adrenaline has a way of lightening triggers up even more so. I feel it takes more focus to shoot a D/A accurately especially under stress, and many can't or don't dedicate the trigger time to be proficient.
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Old January 17, 2010, 09:51 AM   #12
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Another Shot Placement Analysis

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCrackShot.htm
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Old January 17, 2010, 09:56 AM   #13
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Well, sometimes it's a good idea anyway.
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Old January 17, 2010, 06:23 PM   #14
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They’ve been practicing for an invasion of midgets?

Seriously,

I was shooting low and discovered it was due to the harder trigger pull.

I was also shooting to the right and discovered it was finger placement on the trigger.

I was missing the bullseye and discovered many great excuses why it wasn’t my fault.

I practiced dry-fire with a Crimson Trace, where I could see the dot move and where it moved to, and steadied my aim. Then practiced with live ammo and got my act together.

After that I practiced draw and fire and got good enough to hit where it mattered.

At this time whenever I shoot into the ground I never miss.
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Old January 17, 2010, 06:46 PM   #15
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Lots of explanations that are saying essentially the same thing.

However, if the proper sight picture is on the target when the gun goes bang, you hit. Or if the shot goes somewhere else, it's a sight problem.


A friend was shooting low, as usual. He said, "jeez, the sight was right there when I shot." I explained that it was not. "Your sight was right there when your brain said shoot. By the time you shot, it was not because you gave up and quit. Keep the shot on target until the shot breaks. Do that by concentrating on it."

Then, when I'd shoot low, he tell me the same thing. And he was right. We all do it. Knowing what we did is what's important.
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Old January 17, 2010, 06:52 PM   #16
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Lots of explanations that are saying essentially the same thing.

However, if the proper sight picture is on the target when the gun goes bang, you hit. Or if the shot goes somewhere else, it's a sight problem.


A friend was shooting low, as usual. He said, "jeez, the sight was right there when I shot." I explained that it was not. "Your sight was right there when your brain said shoot. By the time you shot, it was not because you gave up and quit. Keep the sight on target until the shot breaks. Do that by CONCENTRATING on it. Like I've told you a hundred times (that kind of joking banter that goes on with friends)."

He'd shoot well for a while, especially quick multiple shots. Then he'd start going low again, especially when he took more time.

Then, when I'd shoot low, he'd tell me the same thing. And he was right, though I knew what happened. We all do it. Knowing what we did is what's important. Not easy to always concentrate on the front sight.
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Old January 17, 2010, 07:47 PM   #17
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Quote:
However, if the proper sight picture is on the target when the gun goes bang, you hit. Or if the shot goes somewhere else, it's a sight problem.
No, trigger control is very very important to shooting. Sights can be dead on but if trigger control is poor, the shots will not go where intended.

And that brings us back to DA/SA shooting and the difficulty of trigger control with DA shots in a simi-auto.
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Old January 17, 2010, 08:32 PM   #18
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Bane of my life with my Sigma .40S&W. Took forever to get rid of the flinch, but it rears it's head if I've been out of practice.

However, when I double-tap or rapid-fire, all the rounds after the first one are where they should be.
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Old January 17, 2010, 08:40 PM   #19
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No, trigger control is very very important to shooting. Sights can be dead on but if trigger control is poor, the shots will not go where intended.
Your statement defies the laws of physics. If your sights are on target when the gun fires, whether by luck or design, the bullets hit in the same place.

I don't think we really disagree, since trigger control is what makes the gun go bang when the sights are on target.

There's a co-ordination between the two. Because you can only concentrate on one thing at a time, the front sight focus prevents jerking the trigger or anticipating recoil. Jeff Cooper called it the surprise break, but call it what you want. I think that's an accepted doctrine in the world of pistolcraft.

Quote:
And that brings us back to DA/SA shooting and the difficulty of trigger control with DA shots in a simi-auto.
No, you brought us back to DA/SA

I have no trouble with the DA part of my Sigs. Similar enough to a revolver. If you shoot DA, de-cock, repeat, and keep shooting DA, you'll find you can shoot quite well, and your groups may be better than SA.

It's the transition from DA to SA that takes work. It's a mental thing. Firing the DA shot while anticipating subsequent SA follow up shots are what causes the first shot, DA, to miss, IMO. Based on my experience.

The cure? Focus on the FRONT SIGHT. Critical for DA/SA first shot hitability (I wonder if that's a real word) Absolutely crucial. Lose your front sight concentratio on SA, you may just shoot low. Do it on first DA shot---you miss.

Revolvers have similar long trigger pulls, and rather than cause flinching, many (including me) find that it settles them down and makes it harder to know when the shot will break (that's good)--especially if you're focusing on the front sight.

Last edited by Nnobby45; January 17, 2010 at 08:56 PM.
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Old January 17, 2010, 11:34 PM   #20
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I found using my support hand more helped since I ahd been using a real loose grip. Tightening up helped.
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Old January 18, 2010, 03:27 PM   #21
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Todd Jarrett sez: hold the gun 20% tighter.

In all seriousness, your friends are shooting low with a DA gun because they're not good at shoot with a DA gun. Functionally, there is no difference between shooting a DA gun or a single action gun in that it's the same thing: sight picture and trigger control.

The difference comes in the "trigger control" portion of the event, where people with sloppy trigger discipline get rough on a DA trigger because they're not used to the extra pull weight. Instead of pressing the trigger, they end up jerking or slapping the trigger resulting in poor accuracy.

Also, as an aside: that graph that shows "if you're hitting here you're doing this" is great...but was originally written for one handed shooting. It's not applicable when you're using a proper (emphasis on proper!) two handed grip.
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Old January 18, 2010, 07:11 PM   #22
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Your statement defies the laws of physics. If your sights are on target when the gun fires, whether by luck or design, the bullets hit in the same place.
Nnobby45,

It's called jirking the trigger. Happens very very often. And if the pressure is not strait back you tend to milk the rounds to one side also.

The handgun weighs maybe 2 lbs. The trigger can be anywhere from 3 to 10 or more pounds. Do the math.
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Old January 18, 2010, 07:30 PM   #23
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My shots fall somewhere between 7 and 8 on most of my guns (all semiauto and none of the revolvers) although I am spot on when dry firing.
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Old January 18, 2010, 08:03 PM   #24
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Here is a good site for all your shooting woes...

http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/grp-analysis.pdf

Massachusetts forces a ten pound pull on our pistols. So when I started with them, I shot low and to the left. Now I am getting used to the hard pull, I am okay again. But it took a few boxes of ammo to get it right.
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Old January 18, 2010, 08:34 PM   #25
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Low second shots

I only have the problem with my large frame target S/W .44 mag. Seems it pushes back more than upward and most of us are used to having to hold em down. I havnt gotten over it in almost 10 years of shooting my .44 mag.
BUT, with the long barrel I have developed a stance which puts me on target no matter what shot it is. ONLY WITH A LONG BARREL and a hot pad from the kitchen on my left arm. First time I tried it I set my denim shirt on fire....lol
I place the barrel on top of my left arm just above the elbow and bend my left arm and grab my right bicep. DONT SHOOT YUR FRIGGIN ARM OFF DOING THIS...I practiced for two months on and off with the gun unloaded before ever going in the field to try it out.
As they say, try it you will like it!! NOTHING SHORT OF AN 8" barrel PLEASE.
Just my two cents worth.
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