The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old December 20, 2009, 06:58 PM   #1
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,235
Why Chamber empty carry is such a bad idea

Yes I know it's the 'Israeli' method, but there are serious reasons not to:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712

1. As in the tape, if you short stroke the weapon, ops..... I understand the jeweler in the tape died, yes the one with the gun that didn't fire cause it looks like he failed to rack it fully.

2. Chamber empty requires two hands, especially if you have to do it fast. Failure to have that second hand free gives you a rather poor club for a gun.

3. If you choose to rack the slide one handed on the calf of your leg, you run the same short stroke risk as well as any 'melted' sights not snagging enough to even rack it (try it with a weapon like a Kel-Tec P3AT or LCP or Browning 1910, or... well any slick slide weapon or Novak sighted weapon.

4. The ONLY reasons I can even think of having a chamber empty weapon are those what are not drop safe (older Colt 1903, Browning 1910, striker fired Ravesn, Jenneings, etc... including Star BMs with longer fireing pins than the length of travel, or those with very poor safeties that are very slow to use.

So with modern drop safe pistols, chamber empty does not make the weapon any 'safer'. As long as your weapon is drop safe, I strongly suggest you carry it fully loaded. Or carry a revolver!
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 07:31 PM   #2
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Israel is basically not a pro gun society, but they carry guns for reasons that don't have to be enumerated. They're a bit paranoid of loaded pistols, however.

One can learn to draw and rack a pistol with practice. But as we saw, things can go wrong. Don't know how much he practiced, but obviously something went wrong. He was behind the curve facing long odds from the start, but brought his gun to bear after taking a bullet. Don't know if that first bullet was fatal or not. Looked like he had time to put some bullets in his assailants---if his gun had worked.

A few years back, on a similar video, a jewelry store owner was able to draw his pistol from his back pocket as he saw Bubba turn to draw his. The owner was quicker. Too bad he was too unfamiliar with his pistol to disengage the safety---Colt Mustang, if I recall.

He was then taken in the back room and shot. I think he survived and blamed the gun maker.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 08:22 PM   #3
Eagleks
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 574
There is a method to rack and load as you pull the gun from your holster. However, I don't do it... mine is chambered and ready, because too many bad things can happen, and quickly.
Eagleks is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 08:27 PM   #4
CWPinSC
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2009
Posts: 863
My CC is ready to rock 'n' roll by simply pulling the trigger which instantly disengages the trigger safety.
CWPinSC is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 09:48 PM   #5
NESHOOTER
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 16, 2009
Posts: 509
Keep one in the pipe (All the time).
NESHOOTER is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 09:54 PM   #6
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,319
When armed with the M1911A1, Military Police were required to keep the chamber empty, hammer down, and the magazine loaded. They were taught to load the pistol by pressing the muzzle against the edge of the holster. I don't know if they do the same with the M9 or not, or if they can carry the new pistol with the chamber loaded.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is online now  
Old December 20, 2009, 10:18 PM   #7
Balog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 259
I wonder how many people train in stress situations with an empty chamber? If you carry that way, have you tried it out under stress?
Balog is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 10:45 PM   #8
Lokpyrite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2009
Posts: 367
Condition 1, the only way to go.
Lokpyrite is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 11:10 PM   #9
SoberSunday01
Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2009
Location: Elk Grove Village, Illinois
Posts: 27
I stumbled into this site less than a week ago. Very informative. This thread is a perfect example of something i would not have even thought about but makes perfect sense when explained properly.
SoberSunday01 is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 05:14 AM   #10
mete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 5,333
And remember to be polite to the BG and say 'excuse me but give me a moment to load my gun '
mete is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 06:54 AM   #11
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
So how many think you can outdraw the bad guy, assuming of course that no bad guys ever read this forum?
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 07:30 AM   #12
45Gunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2009
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 1,727
Stress has a way of locking all brain functions. Most anything that occurs during a high stress situation is usually a result of rote memory (no thinking involved) whereby the training kicks in. If one carries an empty chamber gun, he must continually train and practice draw and racking the slide. There are too many variables for this to have a consistently good outcome, especially under high stress. If one is going to carry a gun, always carry it in Condition 1. And as a previous post suggests, if you are not carrying Condition 1, carry a revolver.
__________________
45Gunner
May the Schwartz Be With You.
NRA Instructor
NRA Life Member
45Gunner is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 07:31 AM   #13
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 850
Watch the Videos of inmates practice disarming techniques in prisons, then you will not be to happy with empty chamber carry. You need all the advantage you can get, no wasted time.

You were bored Deaf?
Brit is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 09:06 AM   #14
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,813
The thing that blows my mind every time one of these 'chamber empty or not for ccw' threads comes up is that there is even a discussion about it. Why anyone in their right mind would intentionally opt make themselves even LESS likely to prevail in a life and death struggle is beyond my ability to comprehend. If carrying a loaded gun makes a person uncomfortable then put it away and go buy some pepper spray, and if the design of the weapon is such that empty chamber carry is the only safe way, then save your pennies and go buy a decent weapon. Crikey.
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 09:18 AM   #15
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
Crikey, you say. How long would I need to save pennies. I'm not that young. A decent handgun goes for over $500, some, I'm told, even more. And then there is the crowd that believes no one makes a decent gun and they all need something more. Sorry, can't go there.

However, the basis of all this discussion is the assumption that all situations will involve a fast draw against, presumably, someone else also making a quick draw, or so it seems. Now you tell me you can make a really fast draw from concealment and I'll stop making comments.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 09:20 AM   #16
hoytinak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Keenan
I don't know if they do the same with the M9 or not, or if they can carry the new pistol with the chamber loaded.
They carry the M9 chamber loaded.

I work armed security...two of my co-workers carry chamber empty and another one's even worse off cause sometimes he has one in the chamber, sometimes he doesn't. If you ask him if he's got one in the chamber that day, he couldn't tell you off-hand and he'd have to check. I just don't understand some people's way of thinking....at least keep it consistent.
__________________
"Four wheels move the body. Two wheels move the soul."
hoytinak is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 11:01 AM   #17
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf Smith
2. Chamber empty requires two hands, especially if you have to do it fast.
I can't remember who said it, but "Why turn your handgun into a handsgun?" sums it up nicely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
However, the basis of all this discussion is the assumption that all situations will involve a fast draw against, presumably, someone else also making a quick draw, or so it seems.
I don't know about "quick draw", but out of the three times I have had to access a pistol under duress, only once did I have the luxury of much of a warning ahead of time. For that matter, given how many DGU's begin with the good guy surprised, or even knocked to the ground out of the blue, making one's weapon even harder to bring into play seems counterproductive.
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 11:34 AM   #18
KenpoTex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2009
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara
making one's weapon even harder to bring into play seems counterproductive.
That's putting it more nicely than I would have
__________________
"Either you are the weapon and your gun is a tool, or your gun is the weapon and you are a tool."

Matt K.
KenpoTex is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 11:36 AM   #19
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...the basis of all this discussion is the assumption that all situations will involve a fast draw against, presumably, someone else also making a quick draw, or so it seems.....
I think the basis of these discussions is that you have no way of knowing in advance whether or not you will need to put your weapon to use quickly. Therefore one really can't assume that he will have time to get it out from deep concealment or that he will have time to chamber a round or he will have two hands available to chamber a round.

If you can't know for sure that you will have time and both hands available, it just doesn't seem very wise to count on having the time and both hands available. Too much can be at stake.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 12:41 PM   #20
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
I'm not part of the in crowd. What does DGU mean?

The tenor of the previous few posts leads one to wonder whatever happened to situational awareness that some here speak of and seem to think so important. Again, I've mentioned in a different thread that other assumptions are overstressing the difficulty of chambering a round (under stress) versus the ease of flicking off a safety (under stress) for automatics so equipped.

In my own experiences a smooth draw is more important than an attempted fast draw (easy to say, though) but doing so from concealment, especially in this season, becomes problematic, though not an impossibility. Practice helps whether or not it makes perfect.

There are many variables in all of this, mostly in the way any given handgun happens to work. I only have a few handguns myself, but only two automatics. Though they are both "traditional double actions," they still work differently. Observe that in spite of my arguments above (or perhaps because of it), the 9mm that I have has no safety, just a hammer drop. Oddly enough, it also happens to be the easier of the two to quickly chamber a round, mainly because it is the larger of the two. But I am also fond of my old S&W Model 13 revolver, too, which is more of a woods gun.

I've tried just about every variation of action over the years but kept on trading because there's still more things to learn about guns, even though I read that Jeff Cooper said you only need one personal gun (Elmer Keith sure never said that). Naturally the action is not the only thing to like or dislike about a handgun and by no means would it necessarily be the factor that makes you take one and leave the other behind (Did you ever have to make up your mind?). I have gravitated over the years to double action automatics, though I still find myself with a single action now and then but my ownership of them becomes shorter and shorter. I have also tended to pick lighter guns, though not necessarily smaller ones.

If I were to do it all over again (Ah, to be 60 again!), well, no doubt I do it all over again. At the moment, if I could, I think I'd spend the money on a Kahr. I've fired one and it was a toss up with a Glock but the Kahr is, I think, a true double action. Mox nix. I have no money.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 01:34 PM   #21
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...What does DGU mean?...
Defensive Gun Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...The tenor of the previous few posts leads one to wonder whatever happened to situational awareness that some here speak of and seem to think so important....
I don't see that at all. Situational awareness is of course important. But it's not perfect, and it's not clairvoyance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...I've mentioned in a different thread that other assumptions are overstressing the difficulty of chambering a round (under stress) versus the ease of flicking off a safety (under stress) for automatics so equipped...
I'm not sure what you mean by "overstressing", but in general, I think chambering a round quickly under stress is indeed more difficult than disengaging the safety. First, chambering the round quickly requires two hands (or a difficult and problematic maneuver like catching the rear sight on one's belt or holster to rack the slide). Second, it's possible to short stroke racking the slide.

Disengaging the safety, at least on many guns suitable for defensive use, is a far simpler act. Certainly disengaging the safety on one of my 1911s is an easy and natural motion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...In my own experiences a smooth draw is more important than an attempted fast draw ...
Yes, smoothness is important. In fact being smooth is the key to being fast.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 02:03 PM   #22
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,950
Quote:
However, the basis of all this discussion is the assumption that all situations will involve a fast draw against, presumably, someone else also making a quick draw, or so it seems.
In most jurisdictions, unless you are in your domicile or in some cases, place of business or employment, you may not produce the weapon unless and until you are in imminent danger. If the attacker has contact weapon, that probably gives you about a second and a half to draw from concealment and, if still necessary, fire, according to studies made by Dennis Tueller. Whether someone else is drawing is another question entirely.

Quote:
Now you tell me you can make a really fast draw from concealment and I'll stop making comments.
Well, 1.5 seconds is not cowboy action speed, but it does require practice.

In my opinion, it is far easier to do so if one does not have to chamber a round.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 02:25 PM   #23
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
I conclude we have different opinions about things. But I suspect we have different experiences and different abilities. Different abilities is one of those things that are rarely mentioned and not so easy to talk about. I would still say that your situational awareness will become an overriding aspect of the situation. One and a half seconds is pretty good (provided you can hit the target, too). Does that include reaction time?

No, I still don't think that chamber empty carry is so bad, which is not the same as saying that other alternatives aren't good, maybe better. True, it takes a lot of practice but so does everything else and some pistols, like I keep saying, lend themselves to that more than others. Does anyone here, by the way, use a S&W/Walther type safety (with the upward movement)?
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 02:27 PM   #24
cycleguru
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: Orygun USA
Posts: 184
It wouldn't matter how much training I had. I would never carry w/o one in the pipe. I carry a sub-compact DA only 9mm. No safety or anything to worry about. It's point and shoot, baby!
cycleguru is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 03:05 PM   #25
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,950
Quote:
One and a half seconds is pretty good (provided you can hit the target, too). Does that include reaction time?
Yep. Clock starts when the attacker starts rushing.

You then go for your gun, draw, and fire.

It's not an absolute--just the result of a study performed some time ago. The purpose was to establish the danger radius based on an assumed capability of a 1.5 second draw and fire time. The answer was 21 ft.--also not an absolute.

The point is, unlike the soldier in the field or a law enforcement officer on duty, the civilian carrying concealed may not draw just because he senses potential danger. He may draw only when it is immediately necessary--and in most jurisdictions, when deadly force is immediately necessary. The old A, O, J triad comes into play. Situational awareness can help you stay out of trouble, but it does not permit you to draw sooner.

Regardless of the "exact" distance (actually, there isn't such a thing), which will depend on circumstance, the time allowed is very short indeed. If the guy can move more quickly than average, you'll have less time.

You do not want to choose any weapon or method of carry that will not give you a high probability of success. The stakes are just too high.

DA revolvers and DAO or striker fired semi-autos with rounds chambered can meet that requirement with a practiced shooter, with the right holster and clothing, provided that nothing snags.

So can a 1911, cocked and locked.

Add the step of cambering a round under duress and it becomes more questionable, notwithstanding the bravado and claims of some shooters. Personally, I cannot think of any good reason to chance it.

If you are sooting at center mass at someone who has closed to a distance of five feet, accuracy will not be an issue. However, that may not describe the encounter.
OldMarksman is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14279 seconds with 9 queries