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Old January 2, 2010, 04:30 PM   #1
oldman1946
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CCW shooting distances

I have had a CCW for as long as this state has offered them, in addition to POST Certification as LEO.

But this time for the renewal, they are testing differently according to state law. Maybe it has always been the law and I have not checked on it before now.

I will have to shoot at a B-27 target with 12 rounds each at distances of 6 feet, 10 feet and 20 feet. All of the 36 rounds fired must hit the silhoutte portion of the target. Not that it is a problem but a reload is required at each distance as well.

This appears to me to be too close of a distance when shooting at 6 feet. Aiming would not be required to hit at that range.

What distances do you have to shoot in your state?
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Old January 2, 2010, 04:57 PM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
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Those seem to be right at the distances that are typical of SD situations, from what I read. In excess of touching, but just barely, seems to be VERY typical.


In my state (NY) the required distance is zero. There is not even a requirement to fire a gun in many counties. In those places where shooting is required, the standard is typically "not dangerous to unintended targets" and that's it. In my county, we actually had to take a class and we fired 20 rounds IIRC, 5 slow fire, five more after a reload, slow fire, and the 10 rounds at whatever speed we choose. The only purpose was to demonstrate safe gun handling and the distance was maybe 10 feet, but was arbitrary.
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Old January 2, 2010, 05:00 PM   #3
Dragon55
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In Tennessee

It's 3 and 7 and 15 yds.

Yes I did say 3 yards.
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Old January 2, 2010, 05:54 PM   #4
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So, you've had a carry permit in Louisiana since sometime before 1986, but only just now learned what the training requirements are?

Interesting.

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Old January 2, 2010, 06:09 PM   #5
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It was 3, 5 & 7 yds here in NC, although it's up to the individual instructor to determine the increments from the 1' to 7 yds stated in the ccw manual.
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Old January 2, 2010, 07:00 PM   #6
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In Missouri the "test" is 20 rounds at 7 yards on a b-27 target. 15 out of 20 rounds must be on the target.
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Old January 2, 2010, 07:29 PM   #7
JohnKSa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman1946
Maybe it has always been the law and I have not checked on it before now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
So, you've had a carry permit in Louisiana since sometime before 1986, but only just now learned what the training requirements are?
Worse than that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman1946
I have 38 yrs in LE.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...&postcount=105
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman1946
I was one of the advisory panel when the CCW law was being revised here 20 years ago...
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...&postcount=107
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Old January 2, 2010, 07:42 PM   #8
Don P
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Quote:
So, you've had a carry permit in Louisiana since sometime before 1986, but only just now learned what the training requirements are?

Interesting.
Boy is this statement RIGHT on the money. I could not have said it better myself.
If memory serves right isn't the OP the same person who has NEVER had a magazine failure because of buying quality top notch equipment.
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Old January 2, 2010, 08:08 PM   #9
StiveC2007
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thats what happens when people stop caring, if it is true that he was on the advisory board then he did a **** poor job. And it makes you wonder why people don't trust what some police officers say. Not to rank on cops, only this supposed one
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Old January 2, 2010, 08:09 PM   #10
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At 10 yards, 30 rounds, 200 points
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Old January 2, 2010, 08:15 PM   #11
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Dispite the anachronisms and such, there is some useful info here.

PA is simple. Can you accurately sign your name on the line of the form? No shooting requirement, just an application, reference and background checks.
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Old January 2, 2010, 08:42 PM   #12
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How does one advise without knowing the current/proposed laws on which he is supposedly advising?
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Old January 2, 2010, 09:12 PM   #13
orionengnr
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In Texas, it's 20 rounds at 3 yards, 20 rounds at 7 yards and 10 rounds at 15 yards.

IIRC, using a B-27 target, anything in the 8-ring is 5 points. In the 7-ring is 4 points. Anything outside the 7-ring, but on the silhouette is 3 points.

It is not a terribly challenging standard. Very few people fail the course of fire (IIRC, 200 is required to pass). If you can hit within the 8-ring with every one of the 3 and 7 yard shots, you could miss every one of the 15 yard shots and still pass.

That said, it seems to be fairly realistic. Few SD shootings occur at 7 yards, far fewer at 15 yards or greater.

Of course, being able to hit what one aims at an any distance can hardly be a bad thing.
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Old January 2, 2010, 09:17 PM   #14
oldkim
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Washington State requirements...

No class, No shooting demo.

Just fill in the application, pay the fee and pass the background.

$55.25

http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/firearms/faconceal.html

In Washington it's a CPL (concealed pistol license).
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Old January 2, 2010, 09:56 PM   #15
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oldman1946,

As orionengnr says, 20 rounds at 3 yards, 20 rounds at 7 yards and 10 rounds at 15 yards is the ranges in Texas.

It is not a difficult test. In fact, I feel it's a waste of ammo.

Since self defense is mostly inside 7 yards, I'd have put it at 7 yards, 5 shots and that's that. It would prove the CCW holder knew which end of the gun to point at their attacker and show they could actually hit something.

You see, most SD situations involve so much more than shooting skills in the daylight, with stationary targets that don't shoot back, that really the qualification course is moot.

Add to that most people never really practice realistic combat shooting that, well, the test is bogus. Maybe a gun handling safety class should be required, but the whole 10 hrs of lecture and gun range? I teach the whole thing because the law is the law, but sadly I can’t go deep into combat shooting or scenarios or any kind of role playing in class.
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Old January 3, 2010, 12:40 AM   #16
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Here in Kentucky, you need to put 11 out of 20 rounds on a silhouette target from 7 yards, and if you don't pass, you get to try again! I haven't taken my class yet (hopefully within the next month or so), but I don't think I'll be having any problems with it!
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Old January 3, 2010, 01:54 AM   #17
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I had a CCW in Arizona where the course required 16 hours of training, including 4 hours of range training. A minimum score was required but one would have to be legally blind and facing the wrong direction to fail. (No offense meant to anyone that has a sight impairment.)

Here in Florida, there is only a requirement to shoot a gun and no qualifying score. As an Instructor of CCW Courses, I will not sign an applicant off until he proves he can SAFELY fire a gun hit a target. I can teach him/her how to shoot but only practice will hone those skills and I am always available for instructor/coach lessons after the permit is applied for.
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Old January 3, 2010, 02:32 AM   #18
jon_in_wv
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Remember 3 yards is around 9 feet. If you are running a qualification course for average folks I think you would be amazed just how big the groups can be when people shoot at that distance. Even some better shooters stop aiming and loose their other fundamentals too. You and I both know at that distance you shot be able to shoot a magazine basically through the same hole. That, however, is not the reality for most folks. At qualification for my job each year we start at the 3 yard line. We draw and fire two rounds 4-5 times. On that string most shooters shot about a 4 inch group and it only gets worse as we move away.
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Old January 3, 2010, 08:09 AM   #19
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Quote:
I will have to shoot at a B-27 target with 12 rounds each at distances of 6 feet, 10 feet and 20 feet. All of the 36 rounds fired must hit the silhoutte portion of the target. Not that it is a problem but a reload is required at each distance as well.
Now why would you have to qualify? You were still qualified when you retired from 38 years in LA law enforcement, were you not?

Quote:
(f) Completion of a law enforcement training academy program certified by the Council on Peace Officer Standards and Training. However, any person retired from full-time service as a Louisiana peace officer need only demonstrate that he was properly certified by the Council on Peace Officer Standards and Training at the time of retirement.
http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=97451
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Old January 3, 2010, 08:23 AM   #20
teeroux
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Quote:
So, you've had a carry permit in Louisiana since sometime before 1986, but only just now learned what the training requirements are?
Its my understanding that officers in this state can forego the NRA Safety class and shoot and sub their yearly P.O.S.T. qualifacation.

So actually he could have been carrying concealed for years and never took the NRA safety class and shoot.

Edit PS: I realized he was retired after I posted but mabe he never bothered to look it up because he wasn't retired till recently and needed to renew.

Last edited by teeroux; January 3, 2010 at 08:43 AM.
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Old January 3, 2010, 08:35 AM   #21
Glenn Dee
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I'm ashamed of the lack of qualification for a Florida CWP. Some instructors only require the student fire one round. If the student dont shoot him/herself they pass.

As far as qualification distances? 3, 7, and 20 yards sounds about right for a handgun. The only thing I'd add is contact distance.
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Old January 3, 2010, 08:48 AM   #22
Tamara
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Of the states I've lived in, Indiana and Georgia had the proper training requirements, which is to say "none at all." (It doesn't say "...the right of the people {who have met some arbitrary standard} to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.")

Tennessee requires an 8 hour training course by a state certified instructor; four hours in the classroom, and four hours on the range, although how you're supposed to stretch the range portion out to four hours is nowhere explained. Most instructors do more like six or seven hours in the classroom and an hour or two on the range. The shooting distances, as Dragon55 mentioned above, are at 3, 7, and 15 yards.
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Old January 3, 2010, 09:40 AM   #23
Bob F.
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Just stopped by, first time in a while. What a critical bunch. Oldman was LEO, an adviser 20yrs ago!

Therefore didn't have to recert CCW as a civilian. Double Naught at least checked the law. Some just went back and dug up old post to make old man look bad, out of context, maybe?

Maybe in the 20yrs since he was an adviser he had more pressing issues to occupy his time.

Bye!
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Old January 3, 2010, 11:59 AM   #24
JohnH1963
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Just my opinion, I think there should be some minimum standard of training and instruction for those wanting to carry concealed. It just makes more sense dont you think?

You are not really infringing on someone's right to bear arms, but just making sure they have the knowledge and experience required to operate and handle a pistol. A secondary purpose of the CCW classes is for the instructor to observe the students during an 8 hour session. Is the person wanting to carry a CCW way too old and not in their proper senses?

These minimum training standards make more sense then not.
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Old January 3, 2010, 12:34 PM   #25
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The problem with that theory John is that when the state controls the training standard, they can turn a "shall issue" state into a "may issue" state by way of executive fiat.

The second issue is that you're not going to teach someone how to be a safe gun owner in a 2, 3, 4, or whatever hour long class. If you take someone that is fundamentally unsafe and put them in the class, at the end of the class they're still going to be fundamentally unsafe, but now they're going to think that they're some kind of long-range-low-heat bad mother because they took the class.

I think Indiana's model works pretty well, actually. We have no training requirement, and yet somehow manage to not go around having negligent shootings, despite having over 350,000 permit holders in the state.
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