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Old December 7, 2009, 10:07 PM   #1
fisherman
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Judge ammunition

I am attempting to load some #4 BUCK shot in the .410 casings and would like some data on a recommended load. I find the #8 bird shot a great load for the initial shot at ten feet but want to follow up with the second shot with number four buck. Then an 8 followed by a 4 buck and another 8.

Any help in developing this load will be appreciated. I found the the number four bird shot by Federal very ineffective at 10 feet.
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Old December 9, 2009, 09:39 AM   #2
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Number 8 bird shot is way too small for self-defense purposes. Why not just stick with 000 buck? Federal is coming out with a buck and ball load that looks interesting.
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Old December 9, 2009, 10:15 AM   #3
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Quote:
I find the #8 bird shot a great load for the initial shot at ten feet but want to follow up with the second shot with number four buck. Then an 8 followed by a 4 buck and another 8.
I load mine with a road flare, then a water balloon filled with holy water, then a shot load of oak splinters mixed with minced garlic, followed by another shot load of rock salt, then a silver slug, and then a .410/.22 rimfire adapter.
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Old December 9, 2009, 11:50 AM   #4
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+1 to Az

Only I use silver dimes rather than a solid slug - get dispersion that way..
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Old December 9, 2009, 12:13 PM   #5
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What are you shooting at? Birds, reptiles, people?

Federal has come out with a great-looking 000 load specifically designed for short barrels like The Judge. I have a Judge on the nightstand. It's loaded with (in order) two rounds of Federal 000 short-barrel buck and three of Corbon .45 Colt +p 265 gr. BCHP.

Each 000 buck shell is 4 rounds of .32 ball that should be quite effective at close range. Slows him down until I can get my eyes open.
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Old December 9, 2009, 12:22 PM   #6
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azredhawk44, if you are getting six rounds into a Judge, you have powerful enough magic as to render the gun unnecessary.
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Old December 9, 2009, 01:10 PM   #7
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FWIW, I just read in "Gunds&Ammo Handguns" that Federal came out with a new load designed specifically for The Judge called the Federal .410 Handgun

four 000 buckshot pellets
I think the muzzle velocity was over 800 fps

recoil wasn't bad
penetration in ballistic gelatin was 10 or 12 inches (although I don't recall at what range, or if it was mentioned.)

the reviewer was quite pleased with the round and indicated it held patterns no larger than 4 inches at 30 feet. Sounds like it packs a punch.
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Old December 9, 2009, 05:58 PM   #8
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Fisherman-

My favorite home rolled load for my 3" Judge is lead BB. I think 32 pellets or so will fit, and it is potent mojo for home or vehicle defense with less fear of overpenetrating walls or whatever.

The folks at Paraklese load some special stuff for the Judge too, but lately I've read of some trouble extracting out the empties.

http://www.paraklesetechnologies.com...cts.asp?cat=13
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Old December 9, 2009, 08:12 PM   #9
fisherman
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sadly comics live here

Redhawk and landdrum seem to think reloading is a humorus topic. Anyone I know that never took reloading seriously was seriously injured.
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Old December 9, 2009, 08:37 PM   #10
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whats wrong with standard issue 45 lc ammo? just get a proper hunting load, put 4 in the cylinder and put a 4 pellet federal buck load as the first round to be shot. thats an interesting combination.
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Old December 10, 2009, 12:33 PM   #11
azredhawk44
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Quote:
Redhawk and landdrum seem to think reloading is a humorus topic. Anyone I know that never took reloading seriously was seriously injured.
I find alternating shotgun loads to be silly in even something as formidable as a 12ga pump. People in bear country seem to think that a first shot of buck or bird is somehow better than a first shot that's a slug. As if the critter will be afraid of the noise of the first shot.

Then, they stagger the loads "in case of" something else. It leaves them less prepared with effective ammunition for the worst case scenario of either situation.

Now, move to a .410 platform instead of 12ga. Now, move that .410 platform to a short barrel out of a revolver. You're basically down to the effectiveness of a low pressure .45 handgun round, as long as you actually use a projectile with enough combined mass-inertia to penetrate deeply.

Using light birdshot or snakeshot, you get low velocity light projectiles that are more likely to bounce off walls and furniture than to embed, let alone penetrate. When hitting the flesh of a target, penetration is best measured in quarter inches.

Justification in court of using such a weapon is questionable. It cannot be expected to physically disable an attacker, so the basis for shooting it at a target is purely to create a shallow wound. This could be attributed to malice or a desire to give him a "that oughta learn 'im" moment.

So, yes... I mock the decision to skip-load chambers in a Judge, because the only defensive cartridge that should be used in it is either .410 slugs or .45 Colt ammunition. It attracts monster hunters and people who think they can plan the confrontation so that they can use cartridges in the revolver in the order they are chambered.

I take reloading very seriously and am meticulous with all of my loads. I rely on my reloads for precision rifle marksmanship as well as 100% reliability in my back-country revolver.

What I don't take seriously... is The Judge.
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Old December 10, 2009, 02:45 PM   #12
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No, what I meant to imply, apparently poorly, is I don't think a .410 full of #8 is viable in anyway for personal defense.

Is it going to hurt like heck, yes. Is it going to reliably put down a threat that is already in your house and
Quote:
ten feet
away? I ain't betting my life or my family on it. You realize that 10 feet is only a split second from contact distance.

Might ask in the shotgun forum or the reloading forum.

YMMV
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Old December 10, 2009, 05:56 PM   #13
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I wouldn't even trust a load of .410 #8's out of a 6" barrel to put down a determined raccoon, much less a human up to no good.

I'll go so far as to say that .410 slugs shouldn't be used for self defense.

They're generally not even a 100 grain projectile, so you're talking .380 weight bullet with double the frontal area and low velocity (especially with a 4-6" bbl) which is going to result in zilch for penetration again. Best left to putting down that rabid raccoon that the #8's just ticked off.

Use a .45 Colt if you want to stop a human being who is bent on doing harm to you or others. All the other options are subpar and difficult to justify. "staggering" rounds is a novel idea that has alot of liability attached to it.
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Old December 10, 2009, 07:19 PM   #14
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Quote:
Federal has come out with a great-looking 000 load
And it is crap comming out of that short barrel. We shot one at deer camp into a rusty old 55gal barrel. At more than 12 ft, you weren't even guaranteed more than one of the pellets would even hit the barrel. Even at point blank range, none of the pellets penetrated the steel. A .22 out of a revolver penetrated easily.
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Old December 10, 2009, 08:26 PM   #15
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#4 shot is about the smallest I use for my Judge. I works well on snakes.
I bought a Judge when I needed one firearm that could do a variety of different chores. And it does.
The 000 buck did a pretty good job on a sick dog at my in-laws last week (though I haven't actually tried to kill any metal drums with it) the poor thing was in the bushes it was dark and cold, etc. One shot put 'em down.

I loaded up some BB loads for it when I first got it. Had to modify the shot cups and then stacked layers of three. Worked pretty good. I got the receipe off of the internet.

I keep mine loaded with 2 pepper shots and then Cor-Bon .45 Colt rounds.

The Judge is one of those rare guns that have what it takes to keep folks arguing.
Some love it, some love to hate it.
Some people see the judge and think "WOW, I could do a lot with that"
and some people see it and can only view it as some sort of abomination.

I like mine.
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Last edited by oilfieldguy; December 10, 2009 at 08:28 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old December 10, 2009, 09:24 PM   #16
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oilfieldguy

reloading the judge is a blast
like you said, some people love it, and others hate it
i love it
got Wild West Guns up here to make me a 6" barrel with extra full choke
great patterns
when your carrying a bear gun and see small game its GOD SENT
only problem is customer service from Taurus
Taurus seems to think they can treat people anyway they like
If anybody is interested talk to the good looking guy at Wild West Guns
Ken will give you the straight scoop on how the treat the dealers
Good luck to all and keep shooting straight
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Old December 10, 2009, 09:38 PM   #17
XD Gunner
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I've never seen evidence that proves any .410 round is better for SD than the .45LC, now, I haven't searched very hard, but everything I've stumbled upon leans in favor of the .45. Why not just load that?
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Old December 10, 2009, 10:15 PM   #18
CWPinSC
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Quote:
And it is crap comming out of that short barrel.
It's DESIGNED for that short barrel. I suggest your "testing"
is flawed.

Quote:
What I don't take seriously... is The Judge.
What I don't take seriously is your idea of the proper load for SD with The Judge. Or do you think 4 rounds of .32 ball at 1200 fps is easily ignored? That, plus something like the Corbon .45 LC 265 gr. JHP +p is a formidable weapon. I'll stake MY life on it.
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Old December 10, 2009, 11:48 PM   #19
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What I don't take seriously is your idea of the proper load for SD with The Judge. Or do you think 4 rounds of .32 ball at 1200 fps is easily ignored?
Here's a test of .410 buckshot when actually fired out of the Judge:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

For those that prefer cliff notes, here's the conclusion:

L
Quote:
essons learned:
1. Jack bought this pistol for snakes and it looks like a fine tool for that job.

2. Birdshot, in any gauge, is for little birds.

3. Buckshot out of a .410 does not penetrate enough to be an effective personal defense load.

4. The rifled slug was also a disappointment and did not have enough weight or power or penetration to be effective as a defense load.

5. The .45 Long Colt loads had plenty of penetration and would be the preferred defense load for this pistol.

6. It's fun to bust clays with this pistol.

And, as usual, it's always fun to shoot stuff.

Thanks to Jack for the loan of the pistol and thanks to Tman for the photo and water hauling help



It appears a single .32 ACP round would perform better.

I have not seen any tests of any size .410 loads that indicate they are capable of reliably and forcefully stopping a human being. If anyone has any actual information to the contrary then please post it.

Remember, adequate (10-12" thru ballistic gelatin) penetration is ESSENTIAL to stopping a threat, expansion (or in this case shot spread) is simply nice to have if penetration is adequate.
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Old January 1, 2010, 07:56 PM   #20
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SD load recemendation

I loaded my judge with 2 rounds of 000 buck then 3 rounds of the silver tipped hollow points, low grain and really acurate @ 15 yards.
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Old January 1, 2010, 08:01 PM   #21
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RE: SD loads

Check out "Mellon Head" on UTUBE. It was a test performed by TAURUS, with the judge, 000 buckshot, and a watermellon. Watch it and you will embrace them for self defense.
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Old January 2, 2010, 07:12 AM   #22
Major 2
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Forgive me Papa-timmy13

Here you say "....embrace them for self defense.

And Here you suggest the Judge http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=391446
has less than favorable issues.... with photos
and one might be better off throwing it at the perp for it's grenade effect.

I mean no disrespect to you , but now that Taurus has had your gun for X number of weeks.... how do you feel about them now ?
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Old January 2, 2010, 01:51 PM   #23
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I'm not hating on Taurus. The first 500 rds went through my gun fine. if i can get a straight answer from Taurus on the Y, that will be my all deciding factor. i love the gun and its versatility it just had a problem. will i own another? yes, pending Taurus doesnt blackball me out of a straight answer.
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Old January 2, 2010, 05:22 PM   #24
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A .410 will hardly even kill a tough Mallard duck, so why would someone think they are a decent HD/SD gun? And, one can buy a much lighter, better, 45 C revolver than a Taurus Judge for less money. I'd personally take a Charter Bulldog over a Judge.
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Old January 2, 2010, 09:48 PM   #25
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cowboy action shooters love the 96 grain lead slugs for target practice from a 38 or 357. yet an identical weight bullet with identical diameter and identical velocity from a .410 shotcup is considered less tehn good for plinking cardboard boxes and half dead ducks.

please get over it, if you like the jduge dont buy one.

-the normal watermelon is considered the ideal test subject for replication of a human head, so close in so many ways its scary. so when the taurus video shows watermelon and watermelon getting disentegrated with buckshot at SD distance, please dont say its insufficient.

-the buckshot pellet load is creating the same energy per pellet at the muzzle that is produced in reduced recoil buckshot for 20 gauge guns, and those reduced power 20 ga loads are considered GOOD for self defense against home invader and wild coyote in the living room.

-alot of the box of truth articles seem to prove whatever point the tester is trying to prove. not always bad to have them prove what they set out to prove, but they did prove that 45lc silvertip was not giving them sufficient expansion in water jugs.
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