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Old January 2, 2010, 11:20 AM   #26
Double Naught Spy
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Shot in left hand? Fixation on weapon?

Shot in right leg? Right-handed shooter low-left anticipatory flinch?
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Old January 2, 2010, 11:38 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight55
A couple of years back, . . . there was a bg that did something that got the local SWAT team's attention. I don't remember the details, . . . but he was threatening suicide, . . . and had a snubbie .38 if I remember correctly.

ANYWAY, . . . sniper got the go ahead to take out the weapon if the opportunity presented itself. IT DID ! And , . . . yeah, . . . he shot the snubby right out of his hand. Bg had relaxed and pointed his gun hand down away from him, . . . BOOM, . . . situation over....
I've heard about that incident as well. IIRC the range was around 50 yards.

So in that case, you had a fairly close skilled marksman, in a secure position, firing a very accurate rifle with an optical sight at a relatively stationary target.
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Old January 2, 2010, 12:16 PM   #28
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I shoot center mass because I think it would be awkward to ask the bg to stop moving his hands, so I could take a shot!
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Old January 2, 2010, 12:47 PM   #29
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I dont think they were aiming center mass. I believe everyone here can hit a pie plate at 25 yards with a pistol right? Lets say the pie plate is moving around, do you think you can still get a few rounds onto the plate?

I think they were aiming for the hands or legs. If they were not aiming there, then they must have some bad aim or something was wrong with the pistols. The guy had to be closer then 25 yards though. Probably like 10-15 yards at the most.

This goes back to the old article I posted. If the guy with the axe is beyond say 10 yards, then you do not have a justification to fire. As the guy with the axe enters that 10 yard circle then the closer he gets the more justification you have. However, it takes only a few seconds to sprint that distance therefore the shots fired must count otherwise you might just get hit with the axe.

There are more details. The victim ran to a panic room. Im not certain if I would run and enclose myself in a panic room. I would crouch behind something with a weapon and have a standoff. These panic rooms are usually not bulletproof or enough shots into them and they are not bulletproof for long. Maybe they might even start a fire to lure me out of the panic room. I would rather be somewhere to go on the offensive rather then trapped in a room.

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Old January 2, 2010, 01:04 PM   #30
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I submit that the danish police shot the perpetrator exactly where they wanted to. I get the impression that all the shots fired hit the perp. The Danish police probably shot him in the extremities... because no one told them they couldnt.
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Old January 2, 2010, 01:40 PM   #31
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff4XuPtAOUk

Amazing video and absolutely, the sniper shot right at the handgun. Destroyed it, too, you can see the cylinder laying around loose after. And without harming the guy in the least.
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Old January 2, 2010, 01:48 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH1963
I dont think they were aiming center mass. I believe everyone here can hit a pie plate at 25 yards with a pistol right? Lets say the pie plate is moving around, do you think you can still get a few rounds onto the plate?
Depends. Am I a KCSD deputy?
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Old January 2, 2010, 01:56 PM   #33
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Practice two,two and two. Two in the chest, two in the head and
two in the groin.

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Old January 2, 2010, 03:34 PM   #34
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The shoot the pelvis theory is an altervative to a head shot for a person wearing body armor. Obviously COM will have little to no effect, therefore you have head shots and pelvis shots left to you. Sadly, all you create is a bad guy who is still armed and a threat to you, they just can't walk.
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Old January 2, 2010, 04:07 PM   #35
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do you shoot center of mass

My department forbid warning shots and aimed shots at extremities, so it was center of mass only. I was taught that in a face-to-face shooting situation to aim for the belt buckle with your first shot and if a quick follow up shot was needed the recoil should put in the upper chest area assuming that I did everything else right.

I was also taught that you never point a gun at someone you are not ready to shoot and you never shoot someone you are not prepared to kill.

Safe shooting all!
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Old January 2, 2010, 06:25 PM   #36
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If you are concerned about the person surviving, you need to not be shooting guns at them. The femoral artery is located in the target area you suggested, for instance, and will cause a person to bleed out like a fire hose.
That's true. The pelvic area has a large concentration of major blood vessels.

Quote:
I submit that the danish police shot the perpetrator exactly where they wanted to. I get the impression that all the shots fired hit the perp. The Danish police probably shot him in the extremities... because no one told them they couldnt.
LOL. Right. Bet they practice that all the time. "You take the foot, Baard. Bane, you get him in the hand. Ready, on three".

Last night I watched Flame and Citron on DVD. Story about two Danish WWII resistance fighters. Subtitled, but well done. I can say those two had no illusions about where to aim.

Last edited by Nnobby45; January 2, 2010 at 06:34 PM.
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Old January 2, 2010, 10:09 PM   #37
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How did the KCSD deputies miss? I am thinking maybe they all purposely missed for moral reasons. No one wanted to be the one to kill the man. I cant believe that 5 guys with drawn weapons could not hit the man.

Am I being too hard by saying that? If you fire 9 times at something from 25 yards, even if that something is moving a little, shouldnt you be able to put at least 3 on the target? What am I missing?
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Old January 2, 2010, 10:21 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH1963
How did the KCSD deputies miss?
Easy. They were lousy shots, especially under pressure and at 30 yards.

Having worked at and shot on public ranges, this doesn't surprise me at all. Look at the targets of the average shooter at a public range at 7 yards. Shots all over the place, and that's with them having all the time in the world and shooting under ideal conditions, and these are people who want to shoot and are paying their own money to do so.

The morning after the McGouey incident, I was at work and one of our regulars came in the shop, an on-duty KCSD deputy.

The gunsmith and I looked at him and, before we could say anything, he threw his hands up and said "Whoah, I wasn't there last night! If I had been, you think I'd come in here today without a bag over my head?"

"I didn't think you were there," I replied, "but they haven't released the names of the deputies yet. Who was it?"

"Let's put it this way: Nobody you'd know from up in a gun shop or gun show."

"Ah."

They qualify twice a year, after blowing the cobwebs off the gun. And most police "qualification" courses are ridiculous; if you could stand flat-footed, shoot at the ground and hit it, you'd pass. There are police officers who are good shots, but it's because they're interested enough to practice or train or compete on their own time and their own dime, and then (if they work in a big city department,) they probably get a nickname like "Tackleberry" or "Dirty Harry".
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Old January 2, 2010, 10:53 PM   #39
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Does everyone shoot center mass?
No...

only those who take a life threatening event seriously.
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Old January 3, 2010, 07:48 AM   #40
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"I was reading this article where the Danish police shot this man in the hand and leg when he failed to put down his weapons."

What makes you think they weren't actually shooting for COM and were lucky, but inaccurate?
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Old January 3, 2010, 11:09 AM   #41
Glenn E. Meyer
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SWAT had a recent article on targets and one thing was pointed out that your hands are high contrast - usually - against your body and draw fire that way. That assumes light colored hands.

Also, if you watch police gun fights - you see lots of rounds impacting low - probably excitement related mashing down on the trigger.

I remember in a FOF, when charged with a bat - my first rounds hit the guy in the leg before the COM. Since we were wearing heavy jackets, my 'opponent' complained about the ouchies on his thigh.
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Old January 3, 2010, 01:18 PM   #42
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LOL Tamara. The guy even had a shirt with a TARGET on it. Again, stress can easily lead to poor hit ratios, but still....
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Old January 3, 2010, 02:01 PM   #43
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That's true. The pelvic area has a large concentration of major blood vessels.
Major anatomy fail.

The chest has the even larger vessels feeding the pelvic blood vessels, along with the pump that makes the whole thing work.

Handguns are far more likely to just drill a hole through the rear of the pelvis than result in a fracture large enough to ground a person.

It ranks up there with hitting a hip.

You have to make a very specif hit to break the top of the femur, and a handgun may not actually result in a fracture.
These are some of the strongest bones in the human body, since they are required to carry the body weight.

Aim for the largest target you have until it is clearly demonstrated to have failed (body armor) then aim for the most important part of a human, the head.
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Old January 3, 2010, 05:36 PM   #44
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"If you want to hit a man in the chest, aim for his groin." -- Bat Masterson
It's what I teach. For this and several other good reasons.
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Old January 3, 2010, 05:47 PM   #45
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"If you want to hit a man in the chest, aim for his groin." -- Bat Masterson
It's been my experience that most people, if they aim at his groin, might hit him in his right knee. (Assuming they're right-handed...)
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Old January 3, 2010, 06:05 PM   #46
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Quote:
Quote:
That's true. The pelvic area has a large concentration of major blood vessels.
Major anatomy fail.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I'm glad you like anatomy. The key word is CONCENTRATION, since the major vessels that supply blood to the legs converge thru a much smaller area in the pelvis before branching to supply blood to the legs.

I didn't say there are more vessels than are contained in the chest. Just pointing out that, with respect to those that go thru the pelvis, they're quite concentrated--which would increase their chances of being hit by a bullet. Don't really want to get into a "fewer in a small area vs. more in a larger area argument".

Don't want to get off track. The Danish Police responded to a threat to a citizen they were sworn to protect and wounded the supect. I think the contention that they deliberately shot to "wound" is a little silly. Some don't agree.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
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Old January 3, 2010, 06:53 PM   #47
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They are missing at 30 yards because when the adrenaline hits and you are in a hot zone you have a tendency to look over the top of the gun at the target and not the sights. Especially new shooters who haven't been in that situation before.

Those shooting in the ground most likely don't even have their guns up but are point shooting and grabbing their guns and yanking hard on the trigger.

It takes a lot of time on the range to actually build up the proper reaction and experience under fire helps.

I drive the local police nuts when I shoot with them because at the 7 yard silhouette I will place all my shots over the wrist of the weapon hand, next string, different gun I will put all of my rounds over the left eyebrow, next round different gun I will do a knee or a belt buckle. I can do it because I know I can outshoot them and because there is no pressure on me. I don't expect to do anything but shoot for the biggest area of a boogerman if the flag goes up and I don't expect small groups. I do expect to run out of ammo.
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Old January 4, 2010, 10:16 AM   #48
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I'm glad you like anatomy. The key word is CONCENTRATION, since the major vessels that supply blood to the legs converge thru a much smaller area in the pelvis before branching to supply blood to the legs.
And the even larger vessels that feed them (especially the descending aorta) are in the chest, splitting into two branches to form the femoral arteries.

The largest concentration of major blood vessels is in the chest.

Both the aorta and pulmonary artery (and their corresponding veins to return blood to the heart) are all in the immediate area of the heart in great profusion.
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Old January 4, 2010, 02:54 PM   #49
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I cannot speak with authority on killing people up close and personal like, . . . but my son hit a 135 lb. doe at 15 yds, . . . dead straight through her heart (12 gauge slug) from front to back, . . . she traveled about six feet, backward, fell in a heap, and was glassy eyed before I could walk to her from 50 yds away.

A doe I shot at 135 yds with a 50 cal smoke pole turned and ran about 40 yds total, . . . collapsing in a heap, . . . again glassy eyed dead before I could get to her from 135 yds away. The 50 cal bullet cleaned her whole aorta and the other arterial vessels off her heart from a 45 degree angle to her.

COM shots did the trick both times there.

May God bless,
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Old January 4, 2010, 04:29 PM   #50
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I aim for the big toe, because I carry a .45, and if you get hit even in the big toe with a .45, you're going down.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

COM. Always.
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