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Old December 8, 2009, 04:55 AM   #1
troy_mclure
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pistols & magazines & flashlights, oh my!

ive been reading a lot of threads that people talk about their "basic load" which can include:
hand gun(or 2), spare mag/speedloader(or more), flashlight, pepperspray, large knife, phone, dummy wallet, real wallet, cash in a money clip, keys, and a small dog

but seriously where do all you guys carry this stuff? do you have the bat belt or something? a 21L fanny pack? 5.1 khakis with a special pocket for everything?

i feel burdened down with my wallet, p32, phone, knife, and keys.
even the bit i do carry seems excessive, even tho i can find no way to further reduce the load(i have the smallest/lightest phone att has), and am not ready to go .22lr yet.

are you one of the guys above?
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Old December 8, 2009, 05:27 AM   #2
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Troy,

I, too, have noted the gear toted by some and wondered if these guys were walking the streets of Memphis or were on the front lines in Afghanistan. I do realize there are some tough neighborhoods and believe it might be a good idea to start classing these. This would then explain the arsenal carried.

Examples:
I live in a Class III hood. I carry 3 guns, 2 knives, Mace, and a 6-cell Maglite.
I live in a Class II hood. I carry 2 guns, 1 knife, small can of Mace, and a 4-cell Maglite.
Etc., etc.

Also, the accuracy guys who practice getting a 3 inch group at 50 yards by taking the correct competition firing line stance, two hand hold, deep breath and hold it, and slo-o-o-wly squeeze the trigger. I truly don’t believe a real self defense situation will lend itself to that.

Oh well....
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Old December 8, 2009, 06:20 AM   #3
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I guess I'm "one of those guys." My usual "not working" loadout is as follows:

-pistol & spare mag (if you're carrying an auto, you should be carrying a spare mag)
-small flashlight (probably the item I use the most of all my stuff, it just comes in handy a lot)
-a couple of knives, usually one fixed-blade and one folder
-phone
-wallet
-misc. pocket crap (chapstick, pen, handkerchief, etc.)
-occasionally an impact weapon like a collapsible baton or sap
-occasionally a BUG

At work, add an extra knife, light, and magazine to the above. And I don't just carry it...I train with it and have taken formal training in the disciplines relevant to employing the above tools.

It's not about "living in a bad neighborhood," the area where I live is typically a low-crime area. It's about recognizing that you can be targeted no matter who/where you are. Getting jumped by a couple of gangbangers is just as serious when it happens in broad daylight outside the yuppie shopping mall or church as it is in Memphis or East St. Loo at 2am.
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Old December 8, 2009, 10:14 AM   #4
Glenn E. Meyer
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The first two posters would benefit by some experience with trained folks in a good street tactical class.

Actually, carrying a semi, extra mag, flashlight, knife or two, cell phone, OC and a small bug isn't really that hard.

Go see people who do it. Also, accuracy training is not a bad thing, nor is training for close encounters.

As far as long shots - go check out the AF MP who took down a rampage killer at 75 yards.

The bad neighborhood mantra is also just BS - a nut in an upscale mall is quite possible. A car jack in a nice neighborhood is possible.

It's all the odds.
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Old December 8, 2009, 11:06 AM   #5
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I can't help you on how to tote all that stuff as I definitely believe in traveling light. All you'll typically find on my person is a fairly thin wallet (containing no more than six plastic cards), keychain consisting of two keys (house and car) on a bare ring, and a Kel-Tek PF-9 either tucked IWB with the belt clip or in a pocket holster. Occasionally I have a full size auto IWB. No mags, knives, pepper spray or cell phone. I live in a low crime area and am pretty much just prepared to either shoot or run. And I'd much rather do the latter if feasible.
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Old December 8, 2009, 11:42 AM   #6
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Oh, the same old argument of how much is enough. The idea that you live in a low crime area is specious.

1. The knife - knife courses teach its use as an escape tool. So, if you live in a low crime area but somebody grabs you - you still could use the knife.

2. The flashlight - it gets dark in low crime areas. Duh.

3. The phone - you might need to call someone if you do have an incident in the low crime area.

4. The OC - there are drunks and nuts in low crime areas.

5. The gun - if you do get in a fight - an efficacious gun is better. You carry a lighter gun for convenience sake but when the fight starts - the low crime area perpetrator probably has the same physiology as the high crime perpetrator. So convenience is the issue, not 'low crime' area.

6. The extra mag - again this is the high intensity but unlikely incident vs. the single mugger. However, a high intensity incident can happen in low crime areas like your church or the nice mall or a school (can't carry there anyway).

So, the issue for the light bat belt is convenience and not probablity of an incident. The equipment is to be used when there is a fight and the crime probability of the area is irrelevant at that point.

As I said before, I can go for a walk in my low crime neighborhood with the right clothing and not be burdened, even in TX heat.
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Old December 8, 2009, 01:00 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
Oh, the same old argument of how much is enough. The idea that you live in a low crime area is specious.
The whole issue is specious, actually.

It's not really about "How much is enough?" or "What should you be prepared for?"

It's about the fact that people's interests differ.

For anyone who isn't required to carry a gun on the job [ETA: or facing a known, specific threat], having an interest in guns is a hobby, or a lifestyle choice, if you will. Some people are interested in large-caliber rifles and big game hunting, some people in shotguns and upland game hunting, and some are interested in handguns and self-defense (and shotguns and SD, etc., etc. ). Some people just like to have guns, whether or not they call it "collecting," and don't actually shoot them all that much. Some people are interested in a combination of those things, or some other aspect of the sport. All of these are fine.

Some folks have a very high level of interest in self-defense: they do a lot of research and spend a lot of money on the best possible tools and training, they travel most weekends to attend workshops or participate in defensive shooting competitions. They do all this because they like it. They enjoy it. It's fun.

And that's great. But they also need to justify the time and money they spend on what is basically a leisure activity. This is especially true in our rather puritanical culture, in which the whole idea of leisure, of doing things just because we enjoy them, is still morally suspect.

Believing that it's important to be prepared is a great rationale, not least because it happens to be true.

If you're spending a lot of time and money on self-defense, it's useful to believe that you're doing so because it's necessary in order to protect you and yours from real danger. But the odds that the average person will ever need a firearm are rather low, and the chances of being present at a riot, rampage shooting, or other event involving multiple shots or several assailants are... well, vanishingly small.

So there's a lot of potential for cognitive dissonance here: why spend so much time and money preparing for something so unlikely?

People resolve this in a couple of ways: some resolve it by perceiving more risk than there actually is, which is easy when we live in a media culture in which fear sells, and we're deluged with information about these statistically unlikely events whenever they do occur. For these people, a high level of perceived risk allows them to justify what they're doing.

Other people, like you, Glenn, assess the risk more accurately, but put more emphasis on the consequences of not being prepared for any eventuality: they know this is life-and-death stuff, so the time and money they spend is a good investment, and they like the feeling of preparedness that comes with carrying a gun, spare magazines, a backup, a knife or two, and a flashlight.

For a great many other gun owners, for whom self-defense isn't a primary interest, it still makes sense to carry a gun for protection, and/or keep one or two ready for home defense. They're entirely happy just to carry a five-shot revolver, which they know they'll probably never need. They're just not that into it, and that's fine.

It's a matter of interest and emotional investment, not [just] one of facts or statistics.
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Last edited by Vanya; December 8, 2009 at 02:10 PM. Reason: clarification; and peetzakilla is right. ;)
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Old December 8, 2009, 01:11 PM   #8
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Well said, Vanya.

I would take minor exception to that last sentence.

Quote:
It's a matter of interest and emotional investment, not one of facts or statistics.
I would put a "just" between "not" and "one".
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Old December 8, 2009, 01:13 PM   #9
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Sorry Glenn, you haven't convinced me, nor are you likely to. I haven't any doubt you're better prepared than I. But my equipment gives me exactly the level of preparedness I want given the risk I face and the inconvenience I am willing to accept.

And I disagree with the claim that local crime rate doesn't matter. You do not prepare for everything that could happen. You prepare for events that have a probability of actually happening that is higher than the probability you're willing to accept. And in an area with a lower crime rate, the probability of those threatening events is lower. If the chance of me being assaulted beyond what my gear can handle is 1/10,000 in my town, it might be 1/1000 with the same gear in your town. I might be willing to accept a 1/10,000 probability of death, but not a 1/1000 probability. Carrying your gear in my town could give me a 1/100,000 probability of death, but that's unnecessary because 1/10,000 is already below the risk I'm willing to assume. You appear to have a lower threshold than I do, which is fine, but don't claim local crime rate doesn't factor into it.

However, people's advice on how to carry all that gear is still valuable since it does reduce the inconvenience level for that degree of preparedness, for those who want or need it.
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Old December 8, 2009, 01:27 PM   #10
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I carry a loaded gun... I figure I'm better equiped to handle a "crazy mall shooter situation", etc. than most of the general public.
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Old December 8, 2009, 01:44 PM   #11
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I carry a pistol and extra mag (IWB holster and mag carrier on belt or in pocket). I also carry a wallet in the back pocket, pocket size calender in cargo or back pocket, keys, clip knife, and cash in front pockets, and flashlight in cargo or side pocket. I usually wear carpenter style jeans or cargo/tactical style pants. My phone is usually in my shirt pocket, as I usually wear a button down style shirt. If I am going into the woods add a compass and or a GPS. If going into a bad area or big city add an extra magazine.
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Old December 8, 2009, 01:44 PM   #12
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I always wonder at folks who carry a semi-auto pistol without a spare magazine.

It's not about ammo capacity to me, I have no problem with carrying a 5 shot snubbie revolver with no reloads.

But what's the standard approach to clearing a malfunction on a semi-auto?

I've been taught, "TAP, RACK, BANG" and then if that doesn't work, to strip the mag, rack the slide and reload a new mag.

If you have just the mag in the gun and get a double feed, what happens?

My CZ PCR holds 14+1, I'd be willing to bet I'll never get in a situation where I need all of them, but I still carry a spare mag to cover me if I have a malfunction.
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Old December 8, 2009, 01:46 PM   #13
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I carry a knife and a gun. In addition to utility uses, I view the knife as a gun retention tool. If someone is fighting with me to take my gun, I will use the knife to stop his efforts.
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Old December 8, 2009, 01:53 PM   #14
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What to Carry

I lived in Europe some time ago when there was an active terrorist situation (one staff member shot and killed, another shot at several times in rapid succession) plus bombings etc

I carried a S&W 39 9mm with two magazines, a Browniing 25 auto as backup w/extra magazine and a buck knife.

Drew my primary once or twice, never fired a shot. When it was clear that there might be some danger carried Browning A-5 w/buckshot ( suprisingly you can carry a shotgun at night in a large city without much notice if it is held in your raincoat folds.

My view based on experience is that problems will happen very quickly and very close (the guy who was killed was shot in the back of the head at very close range).

It is unlikely that the extra magazine will ever be needed. If it is you should have brought a shotgun.

99% of your security is situational awareness and the remaining 1% is useful when you have no other choice.
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Old December 8, 2009, 01:55 PM   #15
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentley998
When it was clear that there might be some danger...
When it was clear that there might be some danger... why would you go there?
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Old December 8, 2009, 02:08 PM   #16
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To answer the OP,

I start with a Galco Carry Lite Belt.

I carry my PCR in a High Noon Down Under IWB strong side at about 4-5 o-clock. My Spare Mag goes in a Galco Horizontal Mag Pouch OWB on my weak side between 7-8.

I clip a cold steel 4" Ti-lite folder on my pocket strong side, and a Zebra F-701 pen on the left pocket, (Mainly a writing tool, but this pen can be used to for defense since the entire exterior is pretty stout metal)

Most of the year, I'll wear shorts or pants with t-shirt tucked in, and a unbuttoned dress shirt over it all.

On colder days I'll exchange the dress shirt for my leather jacket.

Really all I carry otherwise is a wallet, cell phone, and keys. In pants or jacket pocket.

If I'm going out after dark or later in the evening, I'll add a mini maglight sometimes.
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Old December 8, 2009, 02:27 PM   #17
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bentley998- Saying/thinking I should have brought a shotgun doesn't help me if I'm in a situation where I use/need a spare magazine. Furthermore if I'm ever in a shooting situation I want a vest, my shotgun and a rifle in addition to my sidearm. Reality of the situation is I cannot carry all of that with me through my everyday routine. A spare magazine is much smaller and easier to carry/conceal than a long gun.

To the OP- A good belt and holster combination make a world of difference. Before upgrading my belt and holsters I couldn't comfortably carry just a pistol on my hip. Got a belt from The Belt Man, with the liner, holster is from High Noon.

Now I carry a 4 or 5 inch firearm with one or two spare mags. The firearm is on my right hip the spare(s) are on the left. I clip a light to the mag pouch. A small revolver rides in my front left pocket. Keys, chapstick and phone go in the right front pocket. Wallet in the back left, knife clipped in the back right. I don't live in a high crime area, but criminals have no boundaries.

The wife carries a 2.5 inch autoloader, usually in her front pocket. Sometimes she has a spare magazine with her. She feels comfortable with her set up, I feel comfortable with mine.

I do carry just a 5 shot revolver at work. Forced to because of my dress and movements at work. I keep at least one speedloader with me in that case. I prefer having the larger autoloader as my main, but I'll take a 5 shot over an empty hand.
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Old December 8, 2009, 03:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
When it was clear that there might be some danger... why would you go there?
I can't speak for Bentley however there have been a few times this situation happened to me.

Sometimes you just gotta risk it.
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Old December 8, 2009, 03:38 PM   #19
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If the lights go out, the person with the flashlight is better prepared than the person feeling their way down the stairs.

If someone grabs you around the neck, the knife aids in an easier escape.

Whatever - do what you think is best as the neck grab in the low crime area is gentler than in the high crime area.

I also pointed out that one can carry the typical gear if you know how.

But, it's no skin of my back if you are in the intense situation and don't have the stuff.

To be pragmatic, we can't always walk around with long arms. But it is doable to have a semi, mag, knife, light, phone. That seems a reasonable level of gear vs. reasonable intense scenarios - mall, school, church rampage. A platoon attack on you - well, then you might need air cover.
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Old December 8, 2009, 03:49 PM   #20
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I'm "one of those guys", too.
I carry a G19 loaded with a G17 mag in a paddle holster on my right side. On the left side in another paddle is a spare G17 mag with a Surefire light. Cell phone sits behind the light.
In my left front pocket, I carry a P3AT. There's a Boker auto knife clipped in my right front pocket where I also carry my money clip and change.

Wallet in my left rear pocket.

I live in a very quiet neighborhood. Still, there was a shooting 1/4 mile from my house last year. Not long before that, a guy got beat up one evening when he was taking out the garbage.

My wife likes to go to the mall. One of her favorites is the Florida Mall on OBT in Orlando. Lots of violent crime around there.

None of that really means much. BGs can be anywhere. You can't plan on where you'll run into them. You don't have any control over what they do.
I wear a seatbelt even when I don't think I'll be in an accident.

Anyway, I like guns. They're good to have around.
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Old December 8, 2009, 04:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Posted by StratoCactus:
And I disagree with the claim that local crime rate doesn't matter. You do not prepare for everything that could happen. You prepare for events that have a probability of actually happening that is higher than the probability you're willing to accept.
Knowing what the local crime rate is doesn’t tell you a thing about what you’ll run into. It doesn't tell you a thing about who's in the local area. BGs are moble. They don't just stay in the "bad" areas.
If there's an attack, there may only be one BG. There may be six. You may see it coming and have time to get ready, take cover, call for help, get the hell out of the area. Or not.
One thing's for sure; the local crime rate and the probability that you'll be attacked will only matter to you if you used them as an excuse to be unprepared.

You can't control what the BGs do. You can control what you do. My attitude is, you have no idea what'll happen, so prepare for something about 3 times as bad as anything you’ve ever heard of.

In the entire history of gunfighting, there has never been a case where one of the shooters wished he had a smaller gun that held fewer rounds of less powerful ammo. No one who's being shot at regrets bringing extra ammo or an extra gun.
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Old December 8, 2009, 04:21 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Japle
You can't control what the BGs do. You can control what you do. My attitude is, you have no idea what'll happen, so prepare for something about 3 times as bad as anything you’ve ever heard of.
Heard of happening where? Mumbai, India or where I live?

That statement completely negates what you said before it. If the BGs are "mobile" then I must prepare for the worst thing that has happened ANYWHERE.

On the other hand, although BGs may technically be "mobile" they do not export their crime to other areas, to any significant degree. If they did then there would be no way of defining "safe" and "dangerous". In the real world, there are places where severe, life-threatening crime is a reality and places where it is not.

If I prepare for "3 times as bad as anything (I've) ever heard of" within any reasonable distance of me....

I don't even need a gun.

There really are still places in America that qualify as "safe" by any normal definition of the word.
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Old December 8, 2009, 04:43 PM   #23
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Like the White House. Or Fort Hood?

It's the same old argument of probability of an event. An intensive event may be rare in your locale. However, if an event starts, having stuff is good.

The idea that low probability of risk event locales have less intense events when they happen is an interesting one.

So in a richy, richy neighborhood as compared to a bad neighborhood, the BGs attack you with cream pies and insults. They would never hit you on the head, rape your family, burn them alive, etc.
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Old December 8, 2009, 04:51 PM   #24
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Quote:
The idea that low probability of risk event locales have less intense events when they happen is an interesting one.
I don't know why we would assume anything else, Glenn.

Areas with low risk of ANY event have a even LOWER risk of a high-intensity event. Several of the risk factors that make for a higher probability of a high-intensity event are missing in those areas with low probability of low intensity events.

There's unlikely to be a gang related shoot-out in Lisle, NY. There's also not much chance of even the occasional rape.

The back-streets of South Central LA might have a rape on a nightly basis, they also have a higher chance of a gang related shoot-out.
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Old December 8, 2009, 05:01 PM   #25
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Like I said, make your own choices. Once an event starts - I'd rather have the stuff. YMMV.
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