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Old January 5, 2010, 02:26 PM   #26
bababooey32
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Does the employer have a duty to protect an employee from a 'nut job' ?
If they affirmatively strip me of my ability to protect myself, then yes they do have a responsibility to do it for me.
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Old January 5, 2010, 02:33 PM   #27
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It's not about liability, it's about insurance costs,
We have a winner!....That's it in a nutshell. Employers are afraid of either losing coverage or having it priced so out of reach, rules like that are instituted.
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Old January 5, 2010, 02:43 PM   #28
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I dont think these "NO FIREARMS POLICIES" have anything to do with safety. I truely believe that the employers are just reducing their exposure to lawsuits.
You got it. Everything a company does is related to maximimizing profits. If employees get killed, and there is no liability to the company, well too bad.

Quote:
Thats fine... I wonder how long they would last if people injured by criminal violence in the work place sued the employer's for failing to protect them, and not allowing them to protect themselves.
Since when are Corporations required to protect their employees from crime?

If you are murdered on the job, it is a law enforcement matter. The government picks up the tab.

Look at Pizza Delivery forums like http://tipthepizzaguy.com/ or http://gregspages.com/discussion/

Pizza companies knowingly send their drivers into risky areas.

And will fire the employee for carrying firearms.

Better a dead employee than a lawsuit.

Last edited by Slamfire; January 5, 2010 at 02:54 PM.
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Old January 5, 2010, 03:25 PM   #29
bababooey32
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Since when are Corporations required to protect their employees from crime?
When they prevent us individually from doing it ourselves. Implicit in stripping my right to self-defense is a promise to provide some measure of protection. If I can demonstrate (might be tricky) that I was harmed and could have avoided being harmed had the company NOT enacted a no guns policy, then I may win a lawsuit.
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Old January 5, 2010, 03:29 PM   #30
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I work at a university so weapons are not an option.

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Implicit in stripping my right to self-defense is a promise to provide some measure of protection.
IIRC an employer is not required to protect you if they have a " no firearms policy ", basically if you don't like their policies/ procedures/rules then you are free to find another job. If you read the employee handbook and signed off on it then you must conduct yourself properly under the rules set forth in the handbook or risk termination of employment

can anyone cite a lawsuit where the employer lost due to " failure to protect an employee from harm " if they have a no firearms policy?
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Old January 5, 2010, 03:37 PM   #31
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It's a dumb rule. It can't be enforced, unless you plan on using metal detectors, and even then, unless you are an airport or a courthouse or some top secret government agency, it won't be effectively enforced. There are simply too many ways for an employee to get a gun and ammo into a workplace if he wants to.

You will never even know who is carrying a gun if they are responsible and knowledgable CCW gun owners. The guy who is bent on shooting up the place because he was just fired is going to attempt to do that whether you have a policy or not against bringing guns to work.

So, having a policy against carrying a gun to work is really just another way for an employer to find cause for firing certain employees, if they really want to. There is no correlation between no-gun policy and work place safety.
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Old January 5, 2010, 03:58 PM   #32
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by Skans
...It can't be enforced, unless you plan on using metal detectors, and even then, unless you are an airport or a courthouse or some top secret government agency, it won't be effectively enforced. There are simply too many ways for an employee to get a gun and ammo into a workplace if he wants to....
Among other things, many employers require that as a condition of employment employees are deemed to have consented to search of their work stations, brief case or other containers, and cars parked on company property.

A few years back, AOL, from security camera pictures, identified three employees as having guns in their cars parked in a lot used by AOL employees; and they were fired for violation AOL's no guns policy. The Utah Supreme Court sided with AOL.

So maybe an employee will get caught, and maybe he won't. But if he does get caught, he will most likely be fired; and he'll have no recourse. However, a few states, like Florida and Oklahoma have enacted laws preventing employers from taking disciplinary action against employers for having guns locked in their cars parked on company property.
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Old January 5, 2010, 04:25 PM   #33
CorpITGuy
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My company's policy is horribly draconian and based entirely on insurance company demands: we must consent to a search of our private vehicle or bags, as well as any company property. Guns are forbidden. However, it is not posted. The policy says the punishment is termination.

I personally know of at least 3 employees who drive company vehicles and carry every day. I know most of the truckers coming in and out of our facility carry as well. I suppose all of those people would rather be alive and without a job than a dead guy who followed the company handbook. However, my boss made it clear that no one would be searched unless they had cause to do so. In other words, no random searches.

The phrase, "always carry, never tell" comes to mind in situations like the one I just mentioned.
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Old January 5, 2010, 04:29 PM   #34
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I used to keep a pistol in my desk
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Old January 5, 2010, 04:31 PM   #35
r.w. schrack
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I don't have to worry about work place I work in a prison, Employer supplies weapons lol.
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Old January 5, 2010, 05:33 PM   #36
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I work for a company that has a weapons free premisis policy. It was quite well explained that a pocket knife in the car constituted as a weapon.:barf: (I wonder whtat they would do if they found a tire iron.)
One person did settle out of court with the company on a law suit from them wishing to search his vehicle. He had previously sighned a consent to search form. When they demanded he open his vehicle for them he said clock me out. All further comunication shall be thrugh my attorney.
It has been 2 years. They have not attempted to search another vehicle since. Rumor was they had to pay him 5 years pay.
I can see the resoning behind I can "live" with being fired. Personaly I am situationaly aware at all times. My weapon is of no comfort to me. I know exactly what it is for. I accept that fact, and go about my daily life.
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Old January 5, 2010, 05:43 PM   #37
Mike Pearce
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New Utah Law

Fiddletown, Utah passed a law allowing anyone to carry a concealed firearm in their vehicle. They also passed a law which allows a gun to be kept in a employees vehicle while at work.
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Old January 5, 2010, 06:21 PM   #38
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Pearce
....Utah ...passed a law which allows a gun to be kept in a employees vehicle while at work....
Thanks for the information. That makes three that I know about. There may be more.
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Old January 5, 2010, 06:44 PM   #39
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I own the company and have four cops that work for me (real estate). I am not about to infringe upon anyone's 2nd Amendment Right. The only people that carry are the cops and me. Often times we need to enter 'abandoned' buildings that are not always vacant. Some of the vacant properties have become flop-houses. Also, many properties I show are know drug houses... pit bulls and all.
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Old January 5, 2010, 06:55 PM   #40
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by retiredcoasty
I own the company .... I am not about to infringe upon anyone's 2nd Amendment Right.
I wouldn't be surprised if you now get a bunch of job applications from TFL members.
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Old January 5, 2010, 07:10 PM   #41
Glenn Dee
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My wife manages a pharmacy/grocery store. One of the major chains. They have a strict NO FIREARMS policy. Some days she opens the store before sunrise. Some days she close's the store at 11: PM then makes the bank drop. Of course she doesnt carry a S&W 36, and a baretta pop-up in .22 She could get fired for that... And one has to be alive to get fired.
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Old January 5, 2010, 09:14 PM   #42
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A similar law in TX failed to make it to a vote. The inside scoop is that business interests were strongly against it. Progun (haha) legislators proclaimed their support but were in favor of behind the scenes machinations that kept the bill from a vote. Thus, they could spout their support but keep the dough from the businesses.

They did have the time to pass a law that demands that minors have to get parental permission to go to a tanning salon. I don't recall that being a major issue in the defense of liberty.
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Old January 5, 2010, 09:57 PM   #43
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My company also sucks... er, I mean forbids firearms on all company property, including the parking lot. How they would ever find out, I'm not too sure - but you have to weigh the risk of getting caught/fired with the risk of not having your gun.

For me, I like my job.
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Old January 5, 2010, 10:03 PM   #44
buck9
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I live in Ohio and when I took my cc class I was told it was legal to lock my gun up in my truck. Then the instructor went on to explain that is was not illegal but if it violates company policy you may be fired. I often work 56 or more hours a week and with half and hour to get there and half an hour to get home I am deprived of a legal right given to me by the state of Ohio for 12 to 16 hours a day and many times six days a week. Some times terms of employment suck.
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Old January 5, 2010, 10:18 PM   #45
protectedbyglock
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My company has a pretty stiff "no gun" policy.
When I took the job, I found 4 12ga shotgun shells and a box of .22MAG ammo in the glovebox of my new work truck.
The guy before me was an older gentleman and a pretty good friend of mine. He actually recommended me for the job.
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Old January 5, 2010, 10:52 PM   #46
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When they prevent us individually from doing it ourselves. Implicit in stripping my right to self-defense is a promise to provide some measure of protection
They are not preventing you from protecting yourself at work - they are preventing you from carrying a loaded weapon at work. There are other ways to protect yourself, some of which you may not agree with. If you have signed the employee forms regarding your employment and signed that you agree to their terms, you can be fired without recourse for violating company policy, especially as it regards a safety issue.

Try carrying a weapon onto a power plant, county office or similar locale. You're not only fired, you're going to jail.

It's simple - if you do not like the company policy, either fight to change it or find other employment. A company whose insurance requirements necessitate those policies is not going to risk going out of business to assuage your personal feelings on this
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Old January 5, 2010, 10:53 PM   #47
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Lucky Me!

I work as an Operations Manager in the Construction Industry and my boss is completely cool with me carrying while on company time. I am on the road alot as part of my job, so it really makes sense for me to carry all the time. Just today the senior management of the company went out to lunch at a local Ruby Tuesday's restaurant and the waiter said "are your job sites that bad" while he was looking down at my pistol in a paddle holster on my strong side. I just shook my head no and said " I would rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it". My boss just looked at me and laughed. He carries a Glock 23 sometimes. I guess im pretty lucky to be in such a pro gun environment.
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Old January 6, 2010, 12:36 AM   #48
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Good thread.

I'm going to move this one down to Law & Civil Rights, though, since although it began as a pretty solid tactics & training thread it appears to have morphed more into the legal aspects.

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Old January 6, 2010, 12:22 PM   #49
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Bingo!

Quote:
basically if you don't like their policies/ procedures/rules then you are free to find another job
That is exactly what 'free' means. Free to make decisions when presented with options. It doesn't mean you're always going to like the options.
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Old January 7, 2010, 08:56 PM   #50
sixgun67
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Company I worked for has a no gun policy, indoor and parking lot. They used to have security guards, which were unarmed and sat in a shack at the entrance of the lot--no gates. They didn't like the idea of guards on the payroll, so now they have only cameras that are pretty much unmonitored--they are not recorded. They've threatened, but not done so yet, automobile searches. Several years ago an incident arose that got two men fired. They were third shift employees, and must have had a beef going on. They met shortly after work at a local gas station/carwash, and argued. One pulled a gun and fired, damaging only a carwash window. Regardless of circumstances, company fired them on the reasoning 'as soon after work as that was, they HAD to have had the gun in the car at work'. I've always thought to myself, what if they had gotten it elsewhere? Many guys meet their wives in the lot, and so on.

Last edited by sixgun67; January 7, 2010 at 09:05 PM.
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