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Old December 27, 2009, 02:03 PM   #1
DaveInPA
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Remington 11-87 problem - help!

I got a used 11-87 Special Purpose for Christmas and took it to the range today. Problem ensued immediately.

I started shooting and the gun would not cycle AT ALL. The bolt would not move rearward whatsoever. It was a single shot shotgun, for all intents and purposes.

So I took it apart. I immediately saw the problem. The gas cylinder spring was not in the correct position. For anyone who doesn't know what that is, go to the manual here and look on page 11, picture 12: http://www.remington.com/~/media/Files/ ... 01187.ashx

Using a screw driver I was able to move this piece back down onto the cylinder where it was supposed to be, covering two holes. I loaded the shotgun with 5 rounds and tried again. It cycled 3 shells perfectly and then stopped cycling again. I took the gun apart again and moved the spring back where it is supposed to be again, and once again the gun cycled 3 shells and then choked.

Now looking at the manual, I see that this gun is missing the gas cylinder collar, which can be seen in the same picture linked above. Would the part not being present cause the gas cylinder spring to come loose? If not, what else would cause it?

I really hope someone can help me out on this!!!
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Old December 27, 2009, 08:32 PM   #2
zippy13
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I've always thought the gas cylinder collar was just a refinement in the gas system in the 11-87 design over the original 1100. With the collar removed, one can anticipate the typical gas related malfunctions. Get a new collar.

Unfortunately, your link doesn't work for me. My manual shown no "gas cyl" spring per se. There are two major springs in the 1100/11-87s: the action spring located behind the receiver in the butt stock and the magazine spring.

The action spring assembly has several parts that contribute to keeping the spring functioning properly. The most obvious problem would be a bent tube -- with a used gun you don't have a clue what the previous owner may have done. He may have exchanged stocks and damaged the action spring assembly in the process. Looking at the exploded view, you can see how the assembly goes together and should be able spot any problems or missing parts.

The mag spring is pretty straight forward. However if it malfunctions, then you'll have feeding problems. There's not too much to go wrong with the mag spring, it has a follower at the receiver end and the forward spring retainer is a vast improvement over the 1100 design.

Of course, this assumes you have a standard 11-87. You mentioned that your gun is a used Special Purpose model. Since your gas cyl collar is missing, I'm going to guess that someone has messed with a mag extension for your gun. Who knows if the mag spring is original or if the previous owner tried to "tune it" up, or what. There's another possibility: the previous owner may have screwed up the factory limiter plug (stranger things have happened) -- there could be a twisted piece of green plastic jammed inside your mag spring (I don't know if the SP models come w/ a plug). The easiest thing would be to simply replace the mag spring (and follower if it's messed up) and make sure the follower travels smoothly.

Good luck,
Pete
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Old December 28, 2009, 01:15 AM   #3
olddrum1
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You may have an o-ring problem or your foreend support is not in the right position when you mount the barrel to the action. The forend support keeps the action bar alingned so that it slides back and forth without binding. It is located just in front of the action. When you have it in the correct position with the gun assembled you can pull the bolt back and see the two small tabs between the barrel and reciever on the inside bottom side of the barrel. If these tabs are broken, out of place, or your o-ring is shot you will have these problems. I think that any gunsmith will have the parts and Brownell's will also.

I hope this helps.
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Old December 28, 2009, 01:46 AM   #4
olddrum1
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Z13, I was a little mystified by this gas collar spring also. The link did not work when I tried it . I pulled up Brownells and they did not show one on the schematic but they did list one in the parts. I am wondering if this special purpose is a mag unit? Also I noted that the piston and piston seal come in two parts but in reading the notes they snap together and look as one. Daveinpa will need to know if this is an old seal or new.
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Old December 28, 2009, 03:01 AM   #5
zippy13
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olddrum1, my friend, I was going by Remington Form RD 7061 Rev. 205 the
Owner's Manual
Instruction Book for: Models 1100, 11-87 and 11-87 Super Magnum Autoloading Shotguns


I was mistaken about the Gas Cylinder Spring. I was thinking of a significant coil spring, that's why I made reference to the action and mag springs. Since the gun would function sometimes, I didn't address the hammer nor firing pin springs. Yes, there is a Gas Cylinder Spring on some models and it's more like a retention/alignment clip that's part of the barrel's gas piston. The only references to it is in the instructions, where if cautions not to mess with it. The exploded 11-87 parts diagram makes not specific reference to the Gas Cyl Spring. DaveInPA's suggestion that the missing gas cylinder collar keeps the spring/clip properly located/aligned makes sense until you realize that several models of the 11-87 don't have the collar. I suspect it's the other way around, the spring is okay without the collar, but the collar requires the spring.

The collar is omitted on the 20-ga and the 12-ga super mag. This suggests the collar is used in guns where a wide variety of pressures is anticipated. The 20-ga and 12-ga super mag have pretty narrow pressure ranges when compared to standard contemporary 12-ga loads. Making the collar part of the 11-87 ability to handle a broader selection of pressures than the 1100. If the collar isn't properly anchored or the spring moves, pressure may fall.

I still suspect someone messed-up the gas piston area of Dave's gun while trying to fit a mag extension.

Best New Year's wishes to you and yours,
Pete
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Old December 29, 2009, 09:44 PM   #6
nutty ned
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The gas cylinder collar is necessary to prevent the gas cylinder spring from moving out of position during firing as you found out. I would guess the last owner did not know what it was and lost it during cleaning. I've seen this problem before.
Call Remington at 1-800-243-9700 and order 2 collars. If you do a lot of shooting, the tangs on the collar really hold the spring in place can break, usually one at a time so you would not lose a trip, but, a spare part is good to have.
I think the collar, also, serves as a spacer for proper tightening of the magazine cap because slug barrels come with a collar and there is no gas cylinder spring with Rem slug barrels.
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Old December 30, 2009, 01:02 AM   #7
zippy13
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nutty ned,
If only guns could talkā€¦
DaveInPA's 11-87's collar didn't just walk away and the spring didn't force itself loose. I'm guessing the previous owner hadn't read the instruction manual.

Unfortunately, it's not uncommon for folks to just be rid of a gun that's been misbehaving instead of fixing it. This seems to happen more frequently with auto loaders. It can work in your favor: You may see a good looking 1100/11-87 at a low ball price at a gun show. If you ask how the gun shoots, you'll get an evasive answer. If the gun is missing an O-Ring, or the piston rings are incorrectly installed, you know it doesn't function okay; but, the seller is unaware of the simple fix. A ridiculously low offer may get you a nice gun.
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Old December 31, 2009, 02:15 AM   #8
olddrum1
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Z13 my friend, I have been doing a little searching due to my 11/87 not resembling anything mentioned here. The forend support that I speak of should be #44 on your schematic I believe. This support causes the Action Bar Assembly to bind and the bolt not to move if broken or installed incorrectly. I have replaced this clip more than once on mine. My shotgun does not have the gas cylinder spring and it functions flawlessly without it although mine is a Sporting Clays Grade which is a little bit of a different animal than some. If the piston , Piston Seal and Gas lock are correct it would about have to be the forend support I belive. I could be wrong though not knowing exactly which 11/87 this is.
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Old December 31, 2009, 04:38 AM   #9
zippy13
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Olddrum1, this is getting pretty confusing for a couple of old swab jockeys like us.

You're right, part #44 is know as the Fore-end Suppprt and snaps around the action bar rails. Older 1100s use to have the same (or very similar) part; but, it's not shown in the present exploded view. In the past, comp shooters would remove this piece. My 1100 Trap is without one. This isn't what we've been talking about when discussing the Gas Cylinder Collar, it's part 45a. Or, perhaps it should be called the phantom part 45a since it's not used in the 20-ga nor the Super Magnum 11-87s. And, I'm not sure it it's used in the Sporting Clays Grade (SCG) 11-87.

For the SCG 11-87, the parts list shows a large rubber grommet (part 71) at the mag cap area. The manual describes the proper oiling of this grommet. And, there's a special recess in the SCG fore-end to accommodate the grommet's alignment lump. I don't know if the grommet is used in conjunction with the Gas Cylinder Collar or instead of it in the SCG 11-87s. How's yours configured, does it have a Gas Cylinder Collar (part 45a) and a Rubber Grommet (part 71)?
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Old December 31, 2009, 10:34 PM   #10
olddrum1
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Z13, mine has the grommet and the support but no cylinder spring. If DaveinPA does have this foremd support and does not have it positioned correctly it will give him these systrms. Maybe he should remove it then.
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Old December 31, 2009, 10:41 PM   #11
olddrum1
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I found a schematic on the Reminton LE pages that had both the forend support and the gas cylinder spring shown. They had both the 1100 without and 1187 with. I have not had any correspondence with Reminton in several months. I may send them an email Monday or Tuesday.
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