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Old December 22, 2009, 08:11 AM   #1
boykinhntr
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Should I re-take the CCW class

So I have been around guns my whole life. I understand them, I was taught from age six the proper gun safety measures. I have always spent a lot of time at the range but for some unknown reason put off getting my CCW.

Soooo, here is the problem. I found a class taught by an ex LEO and he does not cover how to operate a gun. That was great bc it just saved me a lot of boring class time. However, we got there and spent the first hour on doing everyones fingerprints and paperwork. The next 45min was an old video on methods of CC. Lastly, he told us where his house was and we could do the shooting portion of the test. I asked him to please cover the laws regarding CC IN ARKANSAS and he said to never be the aggressor and always understand if you shoot someone it's up to a jury to decide. ***

The only other random advice he offered was to never carry one in the pipe and to carry nothing larger than a 9mm bc the larger calibers have a better chance of killing bystandards!!!

Should I just read the laws online or do you think I should retake the classroom portion from another instructor that takes a full Saturday. BTW. mine took 2 hrs with 1hr being fingerprints!!!
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Old December 22, 2009, 08:32 AM   #2
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It all depends on your state / county requirements for CCW class. I know in MO, that would not cut it. Hope you didnt pay for that...
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Old December 22, 2009, 08:52 AM   #3
boykinhntr
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I paid $100 but what really concerns me is that nobody in the class had shot guns yet. They knew nothing about them or the laws. I atleast know most of it just from being around the range and my friends that carry.

Also, he required 3 shots at 20yds to qualify. I put all 3 in the 10ring and 4 of the guys didn't hit the target but still passd!!
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Old December 22, 2009, 08:54 AM   #4
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I like the fact that Alabama doesn't have a training requirement.

10 minutes at the S.O. and I was done. No BS intructors
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Old December 22, 2009, 09:00 AM   #5
boykinhntr
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That's nice not to have to sit through a boring class BUT I wanted to learn about the law.
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Old December 22, 2009, 09:10 AM   #6
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I would suggest taking another class, but the "CCW" classes in most places are pretty hit-or-miss, with a lot of them "missing" the legal stuff especially as your class did.

I would suggest taking a look at NRA Personal Protection Inside the Home (PPITH) and NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home (aka PPOTH, I teach both and am familiar with them). One thing I like about those classes is that the NRA stipulates that the legal part of each of these classes MUST be taught by a POST-Intermediate (if I recall correctly, it's not just any LEO) certified law enforcement officer, or by an attorney licensed in the state where the class is conducted. That's a pain in the neck for the instructor who has to line up a qualified individual to do that part of the class, but I think it helps ensure the quality of the class for the students. (The instructor has an NRA-supplied guide that has specific topics to cover, better than your LEO guy did).

PPITH requires that the student have completed the NRA Basic Pistol/NRA First Steps Pistol class, or be able to complete a pre-course evaluation that covers basic gun safety and operation of a handgun. PPOTH requires completion of PPITH first. The legal parts of PPITH & PPOTH are similar (about an hour of legal in each class) but are tailored for in-the-home situations or outside the home situations, respectively.

Even though you're in Arkansas, I would also suggest taking a look at Jon Gutmacher's "Florida Firearms Law" book. It's specific to Florida but at least goes into a fair amount of detail explaining things such as when force, and deadly force, can be used and what kinds of things might make you the aggressor. This book is used by a number of police academies, in FL at least and maybe even elsewhere. The general concept of AR law is probably similar to FL law and will get you pointed in the right direction until you can locate an authoritative set of instruction on your local law. If you can locate a book like this for Arkansas firearms law, then of course get that instead.
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Old December 22, 2009, 09:57 AM   #7
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Pretty profitable for him. Not much for students. Do 'instructors' have to have some licensing/registration' of their own. In this state he'd never meet the requirements.

See the next thread down for info about carrying 'empty'.
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Old December 22, 2009, 10:03 AM   #8
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If I were you, I would avoid the classroom situation and find yourself a good, private instructor. A couple of hours will cost the same as the boring, teach nothing but check off the square, class.

Download the gun laws for your State and read them. Ask for clarification, if needed. Most instructors will not get into teaching the finite points of the law because they are not lawyers and don't want to get sued down the road because they were quoted by a student.

My partner and I teach CCW classes. We do indeed check off the squares but we do way more than the required four hours. We discuss all the aspects of CCW, why to carry, and why you should not. We don't teach law but we do discuss it. We teach home firearms safety and how to select the right gun for the individual. We also give each student one included hour of individual range instruction and recommend more, if needed.

We don't do this for the money. We do it because we believe in the second amendment rights and we want to be on the streets with safe, responsible, gun owners and CCW's. We are retired and enjoy what we do. The last thing we wanted to be called is a Permit Factory.
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Old December 22, 2009, 10:09 AM   #9
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Based upon what you've written (1) You paid more than the typical rate in Arkansas and (2) You were shortchanged on the class.

I commend you that you want to actually know the laws and restrictions. By all means find someone (an attorney or another instructor) to go over it with you.

In addition, give the State Police Special Actions unit in Little Rock a call regarding the content of the course. Either the instructor will improve his course content or lose his license.
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Old December 22, 2009, 10:44 AM   #10
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If a class is required for your permit, you've "checked the box." In your situation, I would not take another class. You already know how to shoot, and any instruction you get on that aspect will be minimal at best. And even a better instructor won't be able to cover all the legal aspects of carry in your state. I think you'd be much better off doing some personal research. Find a good website that has your state's laws; read them. Find a local forum/club with knowledgable members and ask questions; get them to point you to good sources. I found an excellent book at Looseleaf Press that covered NY's handgun laws; great resource when I lived in NY State.

Start here, and follow the links: http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/arkansas.pdf.
Here's another: http://www.gunlaws.com/links/linksar.htm.
IMHO, you'll be better off doing your own research now that you've "checked the box."
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Last edited by Legionnaire; December 22, 2009 at 10:50 AM.
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Old December 22, 2009, 11:57 AM   #11
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Go take another class, but not a "CCW" class. Instead, sign up for a two-day handgun class from a professional firearms instructor, someone who makes his living teaching firearms. You'll be amazed at how much more value you get out of such a class.

Or, if that's not in the budget, at least pick up two books:

1) In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob

2) The appropriate state gun laws guide from http://www.gunlaws.com/books.htm

Oh, wait, make that three. Buy my book too...

Hope it helps.

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Old December 22, 2009, 12:43 PM   #12
Don P
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Quote:
The only other random advice he offered was to never carry one in the pipe and to carry nothing larger than a 9mm bc the larger calibers have a better chance of killing by standards!!!
What an idiot instructor. You will and have to be extremely proficient at racking the slide to load the pipe and make ready. The time it takes to do the above could very well cost you your life. As far as caliber goes how many people lose there life to 22lr. Much smaller than 9mm and STILL DEADLY.

Pax offered the best advice of all ,
Quote:
Go take another class, but not a "CCW" class. Instead, sign up for a two-day handgun class from a professional firearms instructor, someone who makes his living teaching firearms. You'll be amazed at how much more value you get out of such a class
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Old December 22, 2009, 12:50 PM   #13
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Yeah, I'll modify my earlier post. Don't take another CCW class. A good handgun class from a qualified instructor would be very worthwhile. My first CCW class (NY) was worthless, other than meeting the requirement. What I learned from LFI, InSights, and Storm Mountain was invaluable. Pax has it right.
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Old December 22, 2009, 03:23 PM   #14
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boykinhntr,

[1] You really did get short changed on the class, and it sounds like you got a lot of misinformation as well. Take more classes. It's one thing to meet the minimum qualifications for a CCW in your state. It's another to learn what you will really want to know.

[2] I agree with xsquidgator's suggestion regarding the NRA classes. I'm certified for those classes and, as a lawyer, I do the legal portion for a number of other local instructors. There's good material in those classes.

[3] Pax also offered excellent advice. She knows her stuff. And do buy her book, Lessons From Armed America.
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Old December 23, 2009, 12:18 AM   #15
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boykinhntr,

If you want to learn about the law in your jurisdiction you might want to see about taking the NRA pistol courses: NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course and after that NRA Basics of Personal Protection Outside The Home Course.

Each course has a section which must be taught by either an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction or by an individual certified to instruct in this area of the law by the state.
http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx
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Old December 23, 2009, 02:36 AM   #16
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It is certainly you call. I take a CCW clas at least twice a year. The instructor is a former District Attorney with the local county seat. He really goes over the legal aspect, the court decisions, the changes in law and the action/reactions of the local LEOs. Proficiency with the handgun is a totally other matter. There are lots of classes out there to get good traing with the use of your handgun. For me the CCW class is to become well aware of the legal aspects of carrying a firearm.
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Old December 23, 2009, 12:10 PM   #17
boykinhntr
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Thanks for all the thoughts! I will probably NOT retake the course. However, I am going to call an instructor that I know and ask him to give me a run down and then research the laws for myself. I think its rediculous to have a course and NOT discuss the legal implications of carry.

Pax I will check out your book as well!
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Old December 24, 2009, 09:07 AM   #18
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Go take another class, but not a "CCW" class. Instead, sign up for a two-day handgun class from a professional firearms instructor, someone who makes his living teaching firearms. You'll be amazed at how much more value you get out of such a class
.

This is an excellent suggestion. However, in order to find a full time instructor that makes his living from teaching firearms, one would most likely have to go to an academy such as Front Sight or the like. Occasionally, one could stumble upon full-time instructors such as my teaching partner and I who are both retired and look for any excuse to exercise our NRA Certified Instructor privileges. While we do make some income from our teaching, we would probably not be able to do so if we were at the age that we needed gainful employment. We do not just conduct classes (individual or group), we teach.
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Old December 24, 2009, 10:03 AM   #19
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Straight from the horse's mouth...

Arkansas statute regarding use of force (go to Subchapter 6 - Justification (Adobe page 42)): http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/bureau.../Title%205.pdf

Arkansas statute regarding Weapons: (same link, but go to Chapter 73 (Adobe page 567)).

In regard to course content, based on your description of your class it sounds like you may have been gypped (link to Arkansas State Police Concealed Handgun Carry License Safety Instructor Manual): http://www.asp.state.ar.us/divisions...2007012009.pdf If you feel this is indeed the case, then I suggest you complain to the State Police.

Lazy instructor, easy money.
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Old December 24, 2009, 10:24 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 45Gunner
This is an excellent suggestion. However, in order to find a full time instructor that makes his living from teaching firearms, one would most likely have to go to an academy such as Front Sight or the like.
The OP is within a day's drive of Cumberland Tactics, Shootrite, Tactical Response, and several other schools.
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Old December 25, 2009, 01:59 AM   #21
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"...an ex LEO..." That doesn't make him a qualified instructor or a good instructor. I'd want to know why he's an ex LEO.
"...research the laws for myself..." You should do that anyway. Most of 'em are readily available on-line.
"...and NOT discuss the legal implications..." Yep. CYA.
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Old December 25, 2009, 02:01 AM   #22
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Hate to say this, but if he's an NRA instructor I would report him to headquarters. There's no excuse for that sort of 'training'. It's bad enough you had to endure that ignorance, but think about all the others he's misinformed.
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Old December 25, 2009, 04:03 AM   #23
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save your money. research all the local laws. if you have questions on the wording your state should have a "help desk" for answering questions, i mean if Louisiana does, everybody should!

i got my WA ccw just by being finger printed, and military id. got my Florida non-res by getting fingerprinted, and my dd214. now due to a likely change in louisania law im going to have to get a louisania ccw. i wont need a class for that either.

but i get on the state website and read the laws/rules. i travel alot too, so i do the same for every state i drive to/thru.

http://www.asp.state.ar.us/divisions/rs/rs_chl.html is the site i used this fall while camping on the buffalo river. they have a "help desk" too.
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Old December 25, 2009, 08:32 AM   #24
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robhof

The laws are the primary reason for the class, the instructor should have given you a copy of the ccw laws of your state, and then reviewed said laws. Anyone can go to a range and using the handbook that comes with the gun and alot of ammo can become proficient, but knowing when to pull and when not to, is a matter of extreme importance, at the very least learn the laws of your state and send a critique to the instructor.
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