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Old December 21, 2009, 06:13 PM   #1
kemassey
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AR 15 D-Ring

Hi all: Been having extractor issues. DPMS Panther 20 inch classic. I have shot the gun twice and had all sorts of jams ups. I've used federal ammo 55 grain and some reloaded ammo and had the same results. Seems a lot of folks have the same problem. What do people think of the d ring that goes on the extractor? Has anyone used this product? I went ahead and ordered it and will try it in the spring when the weather gets better. Don't know if I should install a heavy duty extractor spring or not. Any info would be appreciated.
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Old December 22, 2009, 08:15 AM   #2
Bartholomew Roberts
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"All sorts of jam ups" isn't very useful information in trying to diagnose what is wrong with the rifle. Can you be more specific about exactly what happened?

99% of problems are in either the ammunition or magazine. So in addition to knowing exactly how the rifle "jams up", it would be useful to know:

1. Was the ammo marked as 5.56x45 or .223 Rem? Any signs of excessive pressure on the cases?

2. Did the problem occur with a single magazine or multiple magazines? What types of magazines did you use?

Quote:
What do people think of the d ring that goes on the extractor? Has anyone used this product?
The D-ring or O-ring is to enhance extractor tension in short-barrelled carbines. Typically, 20" rifles do not have the issues that make the O-rings necessary. Is your extractor slipping? Do you have a fired case still in the chamber with the case rim bent or a "bite" taken out of it where the extractor slipped off the rim? If you don't have those symptoms, then enhancing the extractor tension will probably not solve your problem.
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Old December 22, 2009, 01:26 PM   #3
Dave R
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On the reloads, were they full-length resized (vs. neck-sized?)

The Federal commercial ammo should not have a problem...
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Old December 22, 2009, 05:39 PM   #4
kemassey
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What I mean by jam ups. A spent shell is being extracted but slips off the extractor and does not come all the way out and a new shell gets jammed underneath of the old shell. Have to drop the clip out and pull the bolt back to get both shells out. Has probably happened ten times or so. Same kind of jam all the time. The ammo that I have been using is marked .223 rem. The reloaded ammo brand is Ultramax brand .223 rem. The first 75 rounds to go through the gun I had several jams explained above. Hope this helps.
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Old December 22, 2009, 06:36 PM   #5
bryceh12321
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Just out of curiosity, did you give that rifle a thorough clean before you started shooting?
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Old December 22, 2009, 07:00 PM   #6
kemassey
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I didn't clean until after the first shoot. I cleaned it good and shot it a second time. I had the same jam up both times. 5 per time or so. I've done a lot of reading up and sounds like whats happening is a fairly common thing with the ar 15. Hope someone can shed some light.
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Old December 22, 2009, 07:48 PM   #7
rjrivero
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Extractor problems can be a pain to figure out sometimes. The 20" rifle shouldn't be nearly as harsh on the brass as the carbine or pistol length gas tubed systems.

Did you function check this rifle first? I like to take a magazine, and load a single round into it.

Pull the charging handle, and fire the round. You want to make sure the bolt cycles all the way and locks open. I do this with every new magazine I get.

If that checks out okay, then the next thing to do is load the magazine to 1/3 capacity. That should provide a little feeding tension to the rounds against the bolt. I will fire those 10 rounds (in a 30 round magazine) to make sure everything functions as it should. Then I'll load up a full 30 to make sure things work okay.

If you're not getting full cycling on any of these "tests" then you need to start working the problem.

If there is a gas tube issue, then you end up short stroking which can cause the FTE and subsequent double feed you describe. If you are using a buffer that is too heavy, you can have the same issue. (If for instance if you took a rifle with a 16" carbine upper and changed uppers with a 20" barrel.) Why does that make a difference? It comes down to the length of the gas tube. The longer the gas tube, the lower the pressure. There are different weight buffers to compensate for these differences. Sometimes it matters, and sometimes it doesn't.

The other thing that can cause this is a worn extractor. It may not have a good bite on the rim and you end up loosing the brass prior to full extraction.

Also the ejector needs to be inspected. You need to have the ejector pressing the opposite side of the brass to push it out of the ejection port.

I hope this helps to guide you a little. If you figure this out, please share with us your solution.

RJ
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Old December 22, 2009, 07:56 PM   #8
Bartholomew Roberts
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Did you examine the fired cases? If the extractor is slipping, there will be a "bite" mark on the rim. It sounds to me like your problem is not the extractor; but the ejector.

If the ejector gets bound up or the spring is weak, the rifle will extract the shell but it won't get kicked out of the ejection port. When the rifle tries to load the next round, the new round will knock it loose from the extractor claw and it looks like a faiilure to extract; but is actually a failure to eject.

The same thing can also happen when you have a magazine with bad feed lips. The next round can pop loose under recoil and it knocks the fired case off the extractor claw and creates a simliar type of problem.

First thing to do:

1. Get your manual out and disassemble the bolt, including the extractor and ejector. Be careful as the ejector is spring loaded and can shoot quite a ways. Putting a ziploc bag over the bolt while you push the pin out isn't a bad idea and having an empty case handy to help put the ejector back in is a good idea too.

Check the ejector hole in the bolt for debris or tiny brass shavings. If they are there, clean them out. Be careful about sticking things in there (q-tips) that may leave more junk behind than they clean.

Check the ejector spring. It should be fairly stout and take a little work to put the ejector back in. Sometimes manufacturers will cut corners on the little parts like springs and use steel that loses its temper under heat or similar problems. The good news is it is a cheap part to replace if that is the problem.

2. Try different magazines - especially if you have good quality mags like Brownells or PMAGs. Use them and see if the problem repeats. If the problem only happens with one magazine, mark that magazine and either use it for training only or trash it.

Quote:
If there is a gas tube issue, then you end up short stroking which can cause the FTE and subsequent double feed you describe.
A short-stroke means there isn't enough gas to cycle the action fully, and typically it means that the bolt carrier group doesn't come far enough back to pick up the next round. We have the next round in the chamber here so it seems that short-stroking is unlikely to be the problem in this case.
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Old December 22, 2009, 10:42 PM   #9
kemassey
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Thanks for all the good input. Will be a while until I shoot again but with bad weather here I will have time to tear down and clean and repair if needed. Will post an update when I can go out and try it out again. Thanks.
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Old January 1, 2010, 06:38 PM   #10
kemassey
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Happy new year. Had some time to clean and inspect the AR today. I noticed some residue around the front gas block. It didn't take much to clean it up. I'm wondering if there is enough a leak to cause short cycling. 90 percent of the time when the last shell goes out the bolt will lock open. A few times the last shell is kicked out though the bolt goes to the closed position. Is a small amount of residue normal around the front gas block? This is still under warranty so it should be taken care of. While everything was apart I installed a D-ring around the extractor spring. Probably won't fix the problem but worth a try. Hope to get some input. Sorry took so long to re-post.
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Old January 1, 2010, 08:31 PM   #11
Bartholomew Roberts
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Some carbon residue where the gas tube enters the gas block and immediately around the roll pin holding the gas tube is normal. If you have a smudge or smear of carbon on the actual gas block itself, that is likely a leak in my experience.

Got any pictures?
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Old January 1, 2010, 09:06 PM   #12
kemassey
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Where I noticed the residue is on the small portion of barrel between the front and rear part of the front sight. One photo has my fingernail pointing at the place. Sorry the photos suck. I'm almost wondering if I need to drive the pins out and move the site forward and check to find why it is leaking.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Gas Block 004.JPG (203.3 KB, 63 views)
File Type: jpg Gas Block 005.JPG (189.9 KB, 51 views)
File Type: jpg Gas Block 006.JPG (185.1 KB, 49 views)

Last edited by kemassey; January 1, 2010 at 09:18 PM.
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Old January 1, 2010, 09:22 PM   #13
Bartholomew Roberts
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If you are seeing carbon residue there, then I would send it back to the shop and let them deal with it. I wasn't able to make out any in your pictures, so it is kind of hard for me to say whether that looks normal to me or not; but I don't recall any of my rifles ever having carbon at that location.

I wouldn't try removing the gas block myself because you could void the warranty and this is really the type of thing that I would want the manufacturer to fix.
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Old January 1, 2010, 11:19 PM   #14
Jimro
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kemassey,

As Bartholomew Roberts stated you aren't having a gas problem but an ejector problem. As far as the gas leakage around the front sight post, sounds like it is working well enough to cycle the action.

If the bolt goes back far enough to strip a fresh round, then the gas system is working properly. What is sounds like is that you either have a dry bolt (no lube around the ejector button means metal on metal binding) OR there is a buildup of carbon or grit preventing the ejector button from operating properly.

To fix,

Pull the bolt carrier assembly from the upper receiver, and drop a few dabs of oil on the plunger, press the ejector in and out with a tool. After the ejector is properly lubed reassemble your rifle and see if the malfunction continues. I would call DPMS about the gas leakage, if they say return it I'd take them up on it.

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Old January 2, 2010, 10:47 AM   #15
kemassey
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Thanks for the info. When I cleaned the gun yesterday I oiled the bolt face and tested the ejector plunger and it felt fine. I don't have the tool to remove the ejector for now. I will call dpms and see what they say. FYI when I was cleaning the portion of barrel that is in the photos, residue came about 1/2 inch out from where is gas port is in the barrel. Also several times when the last shell was ejected the bolt would close causing a dry fire instead of locking open. Maybe the mag spring is weak.
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Old January 2, 2010, 11:53 AM   #16
ranger dave
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ar 15

an extractor is under $ 10 and gas rings are under $5 give that a try before you send it back
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Old January 2, 2010, 01:55 PM   #17
tINY
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Don't make mods on a brand new rifle that may have gas block issues.

You might try and wipe in a small amount of good lube on the bolt carrier and try for function again. New parts run dry may have a little more friction.



-tINY

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Old February 20, 2010, 10:37 AM   #18
kemassey
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I sent the rifle in and got it looked over. While it was pulled apart I had DPMS install a vented free float tube. I talked to repairs and was told their was a burr in gas port that they found a cleaned up. That was enough to cause gas issues. Have not used the rifle due to cold weather. It should be fixed and working fine.
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