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Old December 23, 2009, 09:58 AM   #26
Cremon
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Personally, I would of snap kicked him in the nuts as hard as I've ever kicked before. That would of shortened his lifespan to about the amount of time it took him to fix his firearm.
I am right there with you.
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Old December 23, 2009, 10:27 AM   #27
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If we are talking about what we would have done ourselfs then without a doubt grab the gun twist it until I owned it and go from there . But this guy was clueless I think on what to do .. Like one other member said we were not there it is easy to say what you would do after you see the tape but I would like to think I would have defended myself .

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Old December 23, 2009, 10:52 AM   #28
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I'm sure you or I would have handled it different but this poor fellow was froze up solid
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Personally, I would of snap kicked him in the nuts as hard as I've ever kicked before.
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To see reactions like that just boggles my mind.
I'm sure the victim thought the same thing prior to that day. This is part of the problem. We all think we can do better. "I woulda......".

This video should awaken us all to the fact that lots and lots of training would be necessary to quickly respond correctly to a surprise attack like this.

Thinking it through, "condition yellow" and throwing lead at paper will not prepare you for this kind of interaction. Only thousands of repetitions of hand-to-hand defensive training would help.

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Old December 23, 2009, 10:58 AM   #29
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I Agree , Hind-sight is 20/20 I'm guilty ..

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Old December 23, 2009, 12:27 PM   #30
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Krav Maga has some excellent handgun disarms that would have worked perfectly.

But then, few people train at H2H. The deceased sure didn't.
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Old December 23, 2009, 02:53 PM   #31
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I have a friend who was shot be his girlfriend 20 some years ago. According to him...They were arguing. She stood not 5 feet away from him and pulled out a .38. He said "Baby if you need to shoot go on and do it. Ya know I love you" She said "I love you too but I can't stand a cheater" and shot him in the chest.

In the hospital I asked him why he let her shoot him he told me he didn't think she would do it so he did nothing to stop it. He told me that if he thought she was gonna shoot he would of run, threw a chair, tackled her or something but he underestimated her. They broke up a few years later.

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Thinking it through, "condition yellow" and throwing lead at paper will not prepare you for this kind of interaction. Only thousands of repetitions of hand-to-hand defensive training would help.
Well knowing some martial arts, or a little "sumpin-sumpin" is always helpful but in the situation shown in the vid, not necessary. The shooter is three feet away from the soon to be shootee. You don't need to be Steven Seagal to tackle a fella and bite his nose off, or otherwise interfere.

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Old December 23, 2009, 03:35 PM   #32
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All I have to say is just WOW.
99.9% of us are just as dead as this guy in the exact same situation.

He doesn't even realize that there is somebody there until he hears a click. Even then he doesn't know that it was aimed at this head. Then he sees somebody fumbling with something. A second or 2 to realize it's a gun, then it's aimed and fired again. Too late.

Anyone care to discuss Condition One carry as a bad idea?

Unless that guy knew he was a marked man and in condition red, with a race gun holster and highly proficient with it, I don't think he had a chance.

Maybe some kind of gang initiation hit, simply unbelievable.
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Old December 23, 2009, 04:45 PM   #33
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Looks like he was playing the odds and trying to remain calm like we are told to do. I don't think that's what I would do but I'm looking at a computer screen not a gun.

BTW - It kind of looked like the guy may have fired the gun and actually missed him the first time.
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Old December 23, 2009, 04:55 PM   #34
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Its probably mafia or gang related.

My opinion of it is he most likely knew there was a price on his head and if there was any retaliation (Ie him surviving) someone close to him would be next.

Why do I think that? It was clearly an assasination guy sneaks up on him. Doesn't interact with anyone else but him and obviouly doesn't want anything from anyone but the one mans life.
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Old December 23, 2009, 05:06 PM   #35
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They broke up a few years later.
A few YEARS later? Good lord! What's a girl gotta do to get dumped!
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Old December 23, 2009, 05:10 PM   #36
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Well this was in the UK, right? What do you expect from a hoplophobic society.
You think this happened in the UK because of what? The rain? The people don't look like typical Brits. The cars don't look British. The speaker on the video isn't using the Queen's English. The Liveleak keyword menu says it is Middle Eastern. That sort of casts doubts on the Anglophobic angle.
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Old December 23, 2009, 06:55 PM   #37
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Disturbing video... I hope they catch the killer. I couldn't find any background info but if someone who's better with the internet can please post it up.

And I don't even want to say what I would have done in this guy's situation because I have never had a gun in my face.
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Old December 23, 2009, 08:12 PM   #38
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The language is Portuguese. It is warm out and raining. The streets are urban and typical of about any city. The chain link fence has stranded barbed wire atop it. The steering wheels of the vehicles are on the left hand side of the vehicles and traffic moves accordingly on the streets. Could be anywhere that Portuguese is spoken but not Macao.

Notice that on the side of the fence behind the shooting people begin running as soon as they hear the shot. Only one shot is fired. Folks do not mistake the shot for a backfire. Not a lot of evidence to go on but I bet Brazil.

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Old December 23, 2009, 08:35 PM   #39
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No, pretty clear it was a misfire/jam. He tapped, racked, and, well, BANGED!
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Old December 23, 2009, 10:06 PM   #40
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Hmmm. Brazil. Didn't know Brazil had CCTV, but that could be it.

And Brazil is a very violent place!
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Old December 24, 2009, 12:38 AM   #41
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@nitetrane98:

I highly doubt it would be 99.9% or anything close to that. However, it is true that the most unexpected trouble to come my way is a knife in one situation and some fists in others. I was able to handle those easily enough with a bad ending for the assailants. That's only becuase I have the benefit of H2H training and Martial Arts on top of being 6'5". I'd otherwise be screwed if there was a gunman. 99.9% of us wouldn't survive in the video's situation IF the guys gun didn't screw up.

Indeed, we'd all be shocked.. but not paralyzed. This guy just had a major brainlock.
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Old December 24, 2009, 01:58 AM   #42
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Froze

This must seem crazy to some but I have seen people freeze like this in stressful situations. I can completely understand, though I doubt I would react the same, how this person could fail to act. I worked in a mental hospital where all staff were trained in self defense. One day I saw a nurse freeze as a patient prepaired to strike her with a heavy wooden chair, luckly another staff tackled the pt first. Stress does different things to different people, unfortunately no one in the video had the fight response.
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Old December 24, 2009, 02:41 AM   #43
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For those of you who think the guy was suicidal or a moron...I wonder how many of you have ever been in a really bad situation?

The things you are accusing this guy of are all NORMAL reactions in untrained people (and sometimes even trained people), when confronted with severe danger.

This is why we train.

Go read some of Lt Col Dave Grossman's works like "On Combat" or "On Killing" to learn what happens on a physiological level, when a human is in grave danger. Honestly, it's amazing any of us function under such circumstances, even with training.

FWIW, I've had training in several ways to do a gun grab against an attacker....but prior to training, I'd have never dreamed of doing a gun grab.
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Old December 24, 2009, 09:41 AM   #44
Deaf Smith
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And that is why I recommend training like Krav Maga.

I have 30 years in Taekwondo and a year in Krav (I still train at both to, three nights a week.)

While I'm a shooter to, I know there are times when immediate reaction with just hands and feet are actually superior than trying to use a gun.

And the more training, the more likely one will use it if needed.
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Old December 24, 2009, 09:59 AM   #45
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Didn't know Brazil had CCTV, but that could be it.
CCTV is all over the world where you have electricity and buildings being protected. CCTV is the abbreviation for "closed circuit television, AKA security cameras. That is why the picture has the camera number designation and the running time stamp. Notice the change of picture and you get a different numbered camera. When you have a series of security cameras monitoring a facility, each will often be given its own designation such as with a number or letter, sometimes a name such as the view (alley, lobby, garage, entrance) or direction.
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Old December 24, 2009, 11:15 AM   #46
Phoebe
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Deaf, I started training in Krav Maga a few months ago. I was SHOCKED at how easy a gun grab is.

From defending from a gun wielder, it's reassuring to know that you can take that thing away from him.

From defending WITH a gun, it scared the heck out of me. And it's yet another reason why I think hand-to-hand is important.

But I'd guess without that training, most people would be too scared to grab a gun or react appropriately.
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Old December 24, 2009, 12:06 PM   #47
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+1 on that Phoebe.

Quite possibly the worst thing you can do from a gun retention standpoint is to hold someone at gun point at close range. If the person has had any training in martial arts where they taught self-defense against guns, be it Jujutsu, Aikido, Krav Maga, or what not, it can be SCARY easy to get that gun away from you...
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Old December 24, 2009, 12:17 PM   #48
Phoebe
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Rayndeon, have those facts changed how you would defend with a gun? I suppose a traditional isosceles or weaver stance would make a gun grab much riskier than a more up close and personal....but it seems like keeping the gun tighter into YOUR body would be the best chance to reduce a gun grab.

I've had no training on gun retention...only gun grabs. I'd appreciate any info you (or anyone) has.
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Old December 24, 2009, 12:38 PM   #49
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Good question!

I doubt any of the traditional shooting positions assist significantly in terms of gun retention, so likely, it wouldn't be my stance that would change, but some other things instead.

First off, I imagine having to actually HOLD someone at gunpoint to be a rare circumstance for a civilian, even a civilian who is unlucky to have to draw their concealed handgun. Generally speaking, if you get out of the conflict alive, either they will tend to run away or you will run away. I imagine the question is far more useful to LEOs who don't have the luxury of running away like we civilians do.

And for that matter, sadly, an astonishing number of LEOs are shot by their assailants with the LEO's own gun. For instance, of the 443 FBI agents that died during duty from 1993 to 2002, 45 were killed by their own weapon! So gun retention is an extremely important skill for LEOs in particular to master, considering 1 of 10 dead FBI agents at least died from their own firearm.

However, if one gets to the stage where you are holding them at gunpoint, there are several things to keep in mind. Namely, just like you saw with your gun grab training, if they are holding you at gunpoint fairly close i.e. at the small of your back, execution style, at the chest, etc - with proper training, you can easily get the gun away. So, my first step would be to NOT close in on the assailant.

Even if the assailant were not well-trained, he could still tackle me, whip out a concealed knife, etc. The human body is quite resilient so even if I managed a number of COM hits, there is no guarantee that will stop him from getting my gun away, So, I wouldn't stay close for starters.

Secondly, it is most likely going to be absolutely crucial to keep my attention focused on the assailant. I had the pleasure of watching a teacher of Aikido demonstrate a gun defense technique where he succeeded in distracting the attention of a volunteer and then got the gun away in the split-second after.

A bladed stance like a Weaver - traditional Weaver keeps the gun closer to the body - will likely help, but perhaps not as significantly as the other two suggestions. So, the most basic advice I can give is keep your distance and pay attention!

Also, another possible suggestion is... do some martial arts of your own! If the gun IS taken away, there are techniques - I know Massad Ayoob has taught a gun retention class to LEOs on that aspect - to get the gun BACK. However, my opinion is that it is a lot better to prevent having your gun taken away in the first place then to have to struggle for it afterward.

I hope that helps.
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Old December 24, 2009, 02:18 PM   #50
Phoebe
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In Krav Maga, we do learn to keep attention on the assailant, but also what to do if there are 2-3 or even more assailants.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd think there could be many reasons to hold a person at gunpoint, even as a civilian.

The legal scenario would be, "stop or I will shoot you", and from a legal perspective, that is what is taught to be in accord with NV law.

OTOH, if the person ran away, that would be just fine.
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