The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 20, 2009, 08:33 PM   #1
Crosshair
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2004
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 5,320
Shooting Video: Suicide through inaction.

Wow, this guys guardian angel gave him a second chance and he handed it back saying, "no thanks". I almost want to call this "Suicide through inaction" because the victim just stands there while the BG clears the misfire and then shoots him.

Nothing really bad on the video, but probably NSFW anyway.
Shooting caught on CCTV

Your thoughts?
__________________
I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.
Crosshair is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 08:47 PM   #2
Lavid2002
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2007
Posts: 2,568
this will be locked soon, amazing how the guy had no idea what was going on. Cold hearted killer for sure...
__________________
Math>Grammar
Lavid2002 is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 08:51 PM   #3
Rayndeon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2008
Posts: 128
Incredible. The victim had nearly 4 seconds to react, which would be more than enough time to at least sock the guy while he was trying to clear the misfire. Absolutely incredible.
Rayndeon is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 09:16 PM   #4
NSO_w/_SIG
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2004
Posts: 553
Some people have no plan for any bad things that could happen in life, he is one of them.
NSO_w/_SIG is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 10:10 PM   #5
Crosshair
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2004
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 5,320
Quote:
this will be locked soon.
How so? This most certainly is self defence related.

This guy did possibly the worst thing he could have done, stand there. Punching the guy, running away, ANYTHING would have been better.

I think the video shows that you have to be mentally prepared in at least some basic way because this guy obviously was not. he was still trying to figure out what was going on when the BG finally cleared his misfire and shot him.
__________________
I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.
Crosshair is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 10:25 PM   #6
dblhelix
Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2009
Posts: 42
Don't really know what to say about this video other than.... crazy.

The victim and the guy next to him had what appears to be an eternity after being confronted by the shooter. Instead of running, fighting or otherwise incapacitating the shooter, they just watched while he cleared his misfire and shot again.

I would have to imagine that something would have to kick in when someone is pointing a gun at you. To see reactions like that just boggles my mind.
dblhelix is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 11:04 PM   #7
Rayndeon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2008
Posts: 128
Reaction? What reaction?
Rayndeon is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 11:29 PM   #8
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,513
Looks like he froze. Some people do that.
chris in va is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 11:39 PM   #9
Michael Anthony
Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2007
Posts: 83
It seems like an eternity because you are watching a video of it; it is not happening to you. You also had the luxuries of seeing him approach and having a vague idea of the content of the video before it began playing.

I would like audio as well to see if the attacker is screaming at him or if they knew one another. His reaction, or lack thereof, is obviously not a unique one given that the man standing next to him watches it unfold as well.

This is fairly standard when you are completely relaxed and at rest, talking to someone on the street and in condition white (as most people are most of the time).

When the very last thing you expect to happen actually does happen, it almost always results in shock and inaction.
Michael Anthony is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 03:17 AM   #10
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 2,358
Yep. It's as if they did not believe what they were seeing. As if they believed it was a joke or a trick. It's possible they knew the shooter but as easily he could have been a stranger.

Clearly the two did not expect someone to walk up to them on the street and begin shooting. They showed no sign of being suspicious or even startled. It was outside their experience. Likely they were not criminals.

tipoc
tipoc is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 07:03 AM   #11
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,388
No, not a suicide, not even close. Unless you have some insights to indicate that the victim wanted to be killed, then the notion of "suicide by inaction" is inappropriate. Do you have insights that he was trying to cause his own death? Why blame the victim for being murdered?
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 07:21 AM   #12
45Gunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2009
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 1,727
One need not have a gun to counteract a gun. Of course one would also need to have his wits about him to do so.

Because we all carry guns, we think that our gun is the primary tool and the tactics we devise center around that gun. In a case like this, the victim could have certainly 1. run away, or 2. taken the gun away from the perp.

Ever see Steven Segal take a gun away from someone? Wouldn't be a bad idea to learn how to do that. An hour or two of training is all it takes...not meant to imply that this is for everyone. It takes a lot of nerve, skill, and repeated practice to perfect this maneuver. If you don't do it right when you need it, the consequences are dire.

Most hand to hand self defense courses teach it.
__________________
45Gunner
May the Schwartz Be With You.
NRA Instructor
NRA Life Member
45Gunner is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 07:41 AM   #13
Uncle Buck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2009
Location: West Central Missouri
Posts: 2,561
Looks to me more as if the guy did not understand/comprehend what was happening.

Suicide by inaction seems a bit more appropriate if the guy at least acknowledged that he realized he was in some kind of danger.

Everyone likes to believe nothing like this could happen to them, but until they are actually in a situation like this, who knows what they would do.

Reminds me of a cop I worked with who won all sorts of awards for his 'professionalism', but froze when confronted with a very dangerous situation.
__________________
Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.
Uncle Buck is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 10:16 AM   #14
Beentown71
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 1,493
Dumbfounded...I mean they were dumbfounded. They probably knew the guy and it was a complete shock. Still, they were definantely in condition white.

Beentown
__________________
Μολὼν λάβε

Time for the Mall Ninja list:
Beretta 92fs, Springer XD9, High Standard Model HB, RRA bull bbl...aw heck with it time to go plink
Beentown71 is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 12:11 PM   #15
Mr. James
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: The Old Dominion
Posts: 1,521
Horrible. What a bizarre scenario. Do we have any background at all on what happened here?

The first two men (the victim and the bystander) don't seem to take any notice whatever of the approaching attacker. The victim's first reaction appears to be when he turns his head after the failure to fire, as in "what was that?" It is grainy video, for sure, but it doesn't appear the assailant is shouting at all as he approaches. I wonder, does the bystander with the umbrella even see the attacker is armed? He may have been partially screened by the victim when he turns his head to face the assailant.

It appears the attacker doesn't demand, or take, anything from either man. This was an execution, for whatever reason, and however clumsily performed.
__________________
"...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li

"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat
Mr. James is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 12:34 PM   #16
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 2,358
I agree, no "suicide" involved here.

tipoc
tipoc is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 12:47 PM   #17
rbernie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2004
Location: Plain Ol', TX
Posts: 713
Quote:
Looks like he froze. Some people do that.
Everybody does, to some extent, when confronted with an incongruous situation. I have had it happen to me, and I have seen it in others. You can try to train yourself into transitioning more quickly, but your mind will almost certainly start (and stay in, for some length of time) in a state of disbelief when you're in Condition White and are confronted with something as unexpected as a violent attack.

Nobody moves from Condition White to Condition Red instantly. The key takeaway is likely to try to be more situationally aware and move from White to Yellow in advance of a need.
__________________
-A conclusion is not a destination, it's simply a convenient place to stop thinking.-
-Reading a thing doesn't automatically make it so; repeating it doesn't necessarily make it any truer.-
-Every Texan should be a member of the Texas State Rifle Association.
rbernie is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 12:57 PM   #18
Cremon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 28, 2007
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 307
It would be interesting to know the background on that video. My first question would be whether or not the target even knew who the shooter is. But yes, the victim is certainly VERY surprised. The disbelief is there and if the victim survived the attack (I don't suppose we have that info either) I am certain he replayed that incident in his head a thousand times or more, wishing he had it to do over again.
__________________
If guns were outlawed, then only outlaws would have guns.
Cremon is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 02:04 PM   #19
Ticman
Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 81
I think if the victim had been trained in handling firearms he might have known how much trouble he was in. Looks like he didn't even realize it was a dangerous weapon.
Ticman is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 06:38 PM   #20
Shawn Dodson
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 16, 1998
Location: Titusville, FL, USA
Posts: 1,030
OODA Loop:

Observe
ORIENT
Decide
Act

He simply didn't understand what he was observing, i.e., What's going on here?

Last edited by Shawn Dodson; December 21, 2009 at 07:52 PM. Reason: Correct "React" to "Act"
Shawn Dodson is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 07:19 PM   #21
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,388
Right, and the thing that I see time and time again in these sorts of videos of regular people, bad guys, and trained professionals is that they often have the slowest response time during the Orient phase of the process.

You get people saying that they didn't think the gun/knife/weapon was real. You get people in a building that hear "firecrackers" and state that they thought it must be a prank because fireworks aren't allowed inside buildings. Their minds try to make sense out of the situation and fail to draw the proper conclusion that it is a worst case scenario. For many, it is an Occam's razor conclusion. The simplest explanation, the one requiring the least number of assumptions, is probably the correct one. These assumptions often involve anything other than the worst case scenarios. The only problem is that when it comes to immediate threat response, arriving at the wrong conclusion.

How many times have folks been at a gun show and had somebody ND. How many folks went for an exit or cover? When I have seen it happen, I have seen a lot of supposedly hard core condition yellow types stand still and stare like cattle in the direction of the shot. After all, nobody wants to overreact. A gun shot at a gun show is obviously a ND and not an act of aggression, right?

So some guy walks up to you with a gun and clicks it at you. What a moron with a toy gun. Who is this guy kidding?

Same sort of mentality. People just don't want to believe they are being endangered and would rather assume, even if not consciously, that the events unfolding before them are anything other than worst case.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 07:22 PM   #22
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,235
Well this was in the UK, right? What do you expect from a hoplophobic society.

He died without a clue.
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 07:31 PM   #23
Claude Clay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 313
Quote:
no "suicide" involved here
i have to disagree---
the man laid down on the sewer and died--

and they call that sewercide
__________________
NRA Instructor -- NRA Basic Pistol & Re-Loading

Make a fire for a man and you warm him for the night
Light him on fire and you warm him for the rest of his life
Claude Clay is offline  
Old December 23, 2009, 09:25 AM   #24
theaceco
Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2009
Posts: 37
I'm not so sure the guy even realized what was going on at first.. but even after the first couple of seconds he should of realized that immediate action needed to be taken.

Personally, I would of snap kicked him in the nuts as hard as I've ever kicked before. That would of shortened his lifespan to about the amount of time it took him to fix his firearm.
theaceco is offline  
Old December 23, 2009, 09:53 AM   #25
Formula233
Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Posts: 37
I'm sure you or I would have handled it different but this poor fellow was froze up solid .. Please catch this cold hearted Killer !
Formula233 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12860 seconds with 7 queries