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Old January 8, 2010, 06:10 PM   #126
smince
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My Comments In Bold:
Quote:
Just to enlighten us, for those of you who carry automatics with the chamber loaded (any caliber, any model Glock 19/Glock 26), what is your daily procedure.
A press check/magazine check in the morning after putting on the holster. No need to do another check during the day (unless the weapon has left your control). It doesn't magically become unloaded.

What happens when you get home?
I put the weapon/holster in my gun safe.

What is your weekly procedure?
Don't have one. Just my daily routine.

How often is the pistol cleaned?
After a range trip (most of the time).

How is it stored?
Loaded, in it's holster

Is it your only handgun you regularly use?
No
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Old January 8, 2010, 07:35 PM   #127
Deaf Smith
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Quote:
Just to enlighten us, for those of you who carry automatics with the chamber loaded (any caliber, any model), what is your daily procedure. What happens when you get home? What is your weekly procedure? How often is the pistol cleaned? How is it stored? Is it your only handgun you regularly use?

BlueTrain,

My two carry guns are a Glock 26 with NY-1/3.5 lb connector (8 lb trigger pull) and a Smith&Wesson 642 .38 spl. with Secret Service grips.

Both fully loaded.

I carry the 26 ususally in a FIST IWB kyndex holster and the 642 in a Gould&Gouldrich IWB codura (must be 15 years old that holster!) I consider the holsters the 'saftey' as both holsters cover the trigger guards. Take them out of the holster, you take the 'safety' off! Put them back into the holster, the 'safety' is on! The other safety is the trigger finger!

Daily? Why I just scoop them up in their holsters, clip the 640 on in the appenix position, climb into the car for work, putting the 26 in the console. Since I don't pack at work, I leave the 640 in the console with the 26.

When I get home the 26 is put up in it's place (still loaded) and the 640 rides on me unless I'm in the bath! And when bedtime it sleeps with the 26. Our kids are grown, no grandkids yet. So I can keep them nearby, again, fully loaded.

If I'm going to Taekwondo or Krav Maga, the guns (both of them, and yes, fully loaded) ride in the gym bag, stil in their holsters.

I also have a practice Glock 26 and Smith 640. Yes practice. I shoot them alot at the ranges and don't clean them much! I have a gunsafe for them and others so most of my hardware is picked up.

The only chamber empty gun outside the safe is the M1 Carbine. And that's no biggie as if I need to go get the long gun, I'll have time to rack that baby.
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Old January 8, 2010, 08:48 PM   #128
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Quote:
Just to enlighten us, for those of you who carry automatics with the chamber loaded (any caliber, any model), what is your daily procedure.
Well, my procedure is to take my EDC off the nightstand where it serves night HD duty and place it in my carry holster on my belt where it stays the remainder of the day, until I again take it off and place it on the nightstand.
Quote:
What happens when you get home?
Nothing, as I usually am home.
Quote:
What is your weekly procedure?
None that I can think of other than slight inspection for cleaning approximations.
Quote:
How often is the pistol cleaned?
About once a month if not fired.
Quote:
How is it stored?
At the minimal times it finds itself in the safe, it is in a rack in condition one.
Quote:
Is it your only handgun you regularly use?
No, but it is used about 95% of the time. The alternates are fully loaded in the safe.
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Old January 9, 2010, 07:24 AM   #129
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Good responses here. But I'm not fully convinced that chamber empty carry (with qualifications) is such a great disadvantage. Someone admitted that they didn't leave their carbine cocked and locked. I'm not sure that is assuming away the problem or not but I appreciate the frankness. I also note one or two who admitted carrying a five shot revolver. Is a five shot revolver a disadvantage when you could be carrying something with double the firepower?

Would anyone admit that carrying a Colt Government Model with seven shots is a disadvantage when you could be carrying something with twice that number? I will admit that is a tough question to answer honestly.

Several mention you will act (or react) the way you have trained. I sort of agree (but see my previous posts), so, in theory, if you plan to carry something chamber empty, which absolutely does not render the pistol useless, you certainly have to practice with that in mind.

All of this applies only to automatic pistols, by the way. I agree that expecting to get your revolver loaded at the moment you need it is asking for it. But I have a cousin in West Virginia who states that his method for his "bedroom gun" is to keep the magazine out but full, and when the pistol is called for, to insert the magazine and chamber a round. That's one step too many. He had a Glock .40 caliber and by the way, I think Glocks are perfect for chamber empty carry, if that's your thing. No safety levers to fiddle with and a slide that is especially easy to grasp. And it comes in just about any caliber you could want.

There is one disadvantage to chamber empty carry that I'm surprised no one had mentioned, that I remember, and ironically, it is exactly like one of the disadvantages of chamber loaded carry, in a way. Some have mentioned that you need to double check to see that the chamber is in fact loaded if that's the way you habitually carry the pistol. True enough but you also have to keep checking to see that the chamber is in fact empty if that's the way it's going to be carried. We're trying to avoid accidents here.

Finally, someone mentions that using different carry methods are inconsistent procedures for different states of readiness. I can't believe that people can consistently be in the same state of readiness all the time, even policemen. But I'm beginning to wonder if the contributors here might be better trained than the average policeman. There will always be a tapering off in both your training and your readiness. You can't be perfect all the time. That's not an argument against chamber loaded carry, which I have never argued against here. But you should be a little more flexible to be able to deal with situations that don't meet your expectations of what they will be. I just have to believe that most of you are capable of more than you think. After all, what if you only had one hand to use in a self defense situation--and it wasn't your gun hand?
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Old January 9, 2010, 09:18 AM   #130
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Quote:
But I'm beginning to wonder if the contributors here might be better trained than the average policeman.
Some of the contributors very well are better trained. It's not difficult and doesn't cost a whole lot of money.

While I know a few cops who will pay for extra training out of pocket, they, like your average CCW holder, are few and far between. In the last 3 years I've averaged about $1000 a year on shooting courses or H2H classes just because I want to be better than average.

How many here do that?

Quote:
After all, what if you only had one hand to use in a self defense situation--and it wasn't your gun hand?
Well, that is another case for loaded chamber. Personally, I believe fighting (gun, knife, H2H) should be an ambidextrous affair.

I carry AIWB, so my gun is accessible by either hand, and I have access to a knife with either hand.
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Old January 9, 2010, 12:59 PM   #131
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Quote:
Good responses here. But I'm not fully convinced that chamber empty carry (with qualifications) is such a great disadvantage. I also note one or two who admitted carrying a five shot revolver. Is a five shot revolver a disadvantage when you could be carrying something with double the firepower?
Of course that depends on the carrier. If, say, Jerry Miculeck (sp?) were to have to go up against 5 armed men of normal BG talent, I for one, would expect him to win the day with a 5 shot revolver. Of course, I doubt anyone here has his talent, but you generally carry what gives you the most confidence with the least weight and hope you never need even that.

Quote:
Would anyone admit that carrying a Colt Government Model with seven shots is a disadvantage when you could be carrying something with twice that number? I will admit that is a tough question to answer honestly.
As above, I carry a 3" 1911 in .45 ACP, cocked and locked, with complete confidence in my ability with that weapon. This is after years of experimentation with newer designs and a ton of money tossed in the safe. The 1911 fits my hand best, I am able to get it into action fastest, and I am far more accurate with it than any other weapon, and that trumps higher firepower and less accuracy, since you are responsible for every round that leaves your weapon. I will say that I carry a BUG, but that is more for possible mechanical failure, rather than extra firepower, such as an extra mag.

Quote:
There is one disadvantage to chamber empty carry that I'm surprised no one had mentioned, that I remember, and ironically, it is exactly like one of the disadvantages of chamber loaded carry, in a way. Some have mentioned that you need to double check to see that the chamber is in fact loaded if that's the way you habitually carry the pistol. True enough but you also have to keep checking to see that the chamber is in fact empty if that's the way it's going to be carried. We're trying to avoid accidents here.
I never check mine. It is LOADED and nobody touches it but me. It certainly can't unload itself on the nightstand. Also remember rule #1.

Quote:
Finally, someone mentions that using different carry methods are inconsistent procedures for different states of readiness. I can't believe that people can consistently be in the same state of readiness all the time, even policemen. But I'm beginning to wonder if the contributors here might be better trained than the average policeman. There will always be a tapering off in both your training and your readiness. You can't be perfect all the time. That's not an argument against chamber loaded carry, which I have never argued against here. But you should be a little more flexible to be able to deal with situations that don't meet your expectations of what they will be. I just have to believe that most of you are capable of more than you think. After all, what if you only had one hand to use in a self defense situation--and it wasn't your gun hand?
True enough, and I generally outshot most of the police officers I shot with, though they have many other types of training that I haven't had, and their jobs are far more than accuracy with a gun. As far as states of readiness go, different people go about their day in different degrees of alertness. I'm constantly alert for potential problems enough that it drives my wife crazy. But usually it's her I'm trying to protect, so she's more or less used to it. (Or after 34 years of marriage, simply puts up with it) So I try not to taper off in training and readiness, though accuracy suffers just a bit if range time decreases from once a month. As far as other ways of carrying go, like you, I don't have a problem with anybody's mode or condition of carry for them. But, I'll likely never change mine.
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Old January 9, 2010, 03:08 PM   #132
Glenn E. Meyer
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Summary:

1. I feel I'm unsafe with a chambered gun in most situations
2. I feel I'm safe with a chambered gun in most situations.

and

1. I think I can do gyrations in all likely incidents to chamber and get into action
2. I think there are reasonable scenarios were chambering would be difficult or slow me down to put me at risk.

and

If I have one of these opinions, if you don't - you are wrong.

Is that it?
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Old January 9, 2010, 11:07 PM   #133
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Quote:
Is that?
Is what?
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Old January 9, 2010, 11:16 PM   #134
Deaf Smith
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Bluetrain,

Quote:
Is a five shot revolver a disadvantage when you could be carrying something with double the firepower?
The disadvantage is only dependant on what your opponent is bringing, not what you are bringing. And remember, that 'something' with double the firepower is apt to be much heavier, larger, and harder to conceal.

Quote:
Would anyone admit that carrying a Colt Government Model with seven shots is a disadvantage when you could be carrying something with twice that number?
Nope. See answer above.

Quote:
Some have mentioned that you need to double check to see that the chamber is in fact loaded if that's the way you habitually carry the pistol.
It's very easy with a Glock. Just turn the weapon on it's left side and you can see the cartridge case in the chamber. No need to rack anything. Several other simi-automatics are like that. And others have chamber loaded indicators (but don't put to much faith in them.)

Quote:
After all, what if you only had one hand to use in a self defense situation--and it wasn't your gun hand?
Both my hands ARE gun hands BlueTrain. My right is faster than my left, but my left is more accurate.

Quote:
But I'm beginning to wonder if the contributors here might be better trained than the average policeman.
Ah.. The 'average policeman'. There ain't no such animal BlueTrain. Some are pretty sad, some are very good.

True some people here are pretty decent combat shots and well trained, but some are not. But it's the experience of well trained people you look for, not the 'average'. For it's the well trained and experience people who know how much effort and training it takes to be competent, and not those who are mediocre.
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Old January 10, 2010, 07:12 AM   #135
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When I read some one is basically frightened of a Pistol (do not feel experienced enough to carry loaded chamber) the chance of them being able to shoot some one is slim to none, carry a walking stick.
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Old January 10, 2010, 12:35 PM   #136
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In all seriousness, now, there's a good chance that before I'll need to draw my weapon, I'll need to:
  • Fight off the attacker
  • Use a flashlight to identify the threat
  • Open or close a door
  • Turn on or off a light
  • Try to drive a car
  • Grab one of my kids or my wife
I know that I'll be doing those things with my hands, and even, perhaps, wishing I had an extra one for the time being. I can't imagine how giving one up at the critical time of an attack would be of benefit.

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Old January 10, 2010, 01:42 PM   #137
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Thoughts from Israel

I am not sure how Israeli Shooters got started on what you call the 'Israeli' method. But I think it was the conventional wisdom many years ago when the country was awash with lots of old WWII handguns. Things have changed in terms of the weapons we have, but the mentality and training has stayed.

Interestingly we don't have many robbery's and bad guy type encounters here. Our streets are pretty safe, (This does not mean we don't have these problems but the probability is so low that it just would not be serious reason to carry a handgun.)

Threats we do have to face:
Getting shot at by terrorists while driving by automatic rifle fire.
Terrorists going amok with firearms on the street and in institutions.
Terrorist with explosive belts that need to be taken out before they detonate.
Terrorist using cars, buses, tractors etc. as deadly weapons.
Terrorists taking over buses, trains or operating in transportation terminals.

The only advantage a handgun has against an automatic assault rifle is speed in getting into action. Hopefully, you can take them out before they get you. Therefore I have come to the conclusion that loaded chamber carry is still the way to go. Every second counts. But I always carried concealed.

However, lots of people carry pistols out in the open. In this case, I think the possibility of your handgun being snatched etc. is much greater. So perhaps empty chamber has an advantage. Furthermore, due to the high demand for security guards, training is not always of the highest level for guards at restaurants or malls… so I think the authorities prefer empty chamber carry for these situations.

Bottom line, empty chamber carry seems to go with pistols carried in the open where they are subject to being snatched etc.

Lastly I would like to say… One hand load… First of all it did not work with my S&W M&P 9mm… and I want to see somebody do it sitting down in a car first! IMHO, it’s a nice range trick. Very impressive but not the sort of thing you want to bet your life on!

Rafi
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Old January 10, 2010, 05:52 PM   #138
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Some of you watch too many movies, Jacking a round into the chamber before the big shoot out. First off a typical incident lasts only 15 seconds and is with-in 10 feet. If you carry with an empty chamber it was nice knowing you. I do believe most people who carry do have some common sense. Most of the weapons on the market are safe to carry with one in the chamber.
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Old January 11, 2010, 06:42 AM   #139
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I totally agree. Some of you watch too many movies.
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Old January 11, 2010, 08:51 AM   #140
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I'm not sure if it has been mentioned (I'm too lazy to go back through the thread). Some of the reasons mentioned for 'chamber empty' carry would be akin to carrying the first chamber empty in a revolver cylinder.

Who does that?
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Old January 11, 2010, 10:07 AM   #141
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Quote:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned (I'm too lazy to go back through the thread). Some of the reasons mentioned for 'chamber empty' carry would be akin to carrying the first chamber empty in a revolver cylinder.

Who does that?
Not really.... any revolver without a hammerblock/transfer bar should be carried with the hammer on an empty chamber. The big difference between this and the semi is that the revolver will cycle to the next loaded chamber when the trigger is pulled (assuming DA), this does not increase the time to get the first round off, only the capacity of the weapon. With the semi, the round must first be chambered by the operator prior to firing, thereby adding an additional step to the process.
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Old January 11, 2010, 10:38 AM   #142
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All D/A Revolvers have hammer blocks. Great for checking eye to sight when going double action. S&W Mod 10-64-65.

Take cylinder off, put in pocket, line your master eye, with shooters master eye, place gun sights between your two eyes, back sight first, bring front sight up to fill back sight notch. Eyes and sights centered!

Establish proper grip/stance, press double action trigger straight through, watch sights as this is done. Five minutes, they can hit group in right spot when reverting to live fire!

Not safe? Did this for over twenty years, 500 + students per year, only I handled this exercise. Worked.

Use red plastic solid look alike for Glock sight picture exercise, solid sights cut to be able to do this.
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Old January 11, 2010, 07:42 PM   #143
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Quote:
All D/A Revolvers have hammer blocks. Great for checking eye to sight when going double action. S&W Mod 10-64-65.
That should read all MODERN D/A Revolvers.

Alot of the old Smiths from the 20s had a different way to block the hammer and it was not very strong. And, of course, there are other makes from across the pond we know may not work all so well. From RG to Clerks to Rohm....

It still pays to make sure your weapon is drop safe. Almost all are now days, but there still are older ones in service.
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Old January 12, 2010, 01:07 AM   #144
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This thread just blows me away.

1. If your gun is not safe to carry with a round in the chamber you are carrying the wrong gun, get another gun as soon as possible. Do the best you can with the junk you have until then, pray you don't really need it.

2. If your gun is safe to carry with a round in the chamber and you make a conscious decision to carry it without a round in the chamber, you are an idiot. Go practice (Take class for god's sake) and gain the confidence you need in your gun and yourself.

Some of you people have obviously never had to react to the unknown, I have.

See threat, draw, RACK?!?!?, bang. Are you out of you minds? You are going to get yourself killed, with an unloaded gun.

See threat, draw, bang, repeat until threat ceases. Point blank range (4ft) 0.7 seconds (.6 on a good day), two shots center mass, every single time. Do that with your draw, rack bovine excrement.
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Old January 12, 2010, 02:15 AM   #145
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Deaf,
Quote:
That should read all MODERN D/A Revolvers.
I stand corrected, I only have ever owned or shot S&W modern Revolvers.

Spencerhut,

Quote:
2. If your gun is safe to carry with a round in the chamber and you make a conscious decision to carry it without a round in the chamber, you are an idiot. Go practice (Take class for god's sake) and gain the confidence you need in your gun and yourself.
Don't hold back! Say what you really mean! LOL
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Old January 12, 2010, 05:50 AM   #146
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Quote:
See threat, draw, RACK?!?!?, bang. Are you out of you minds? You are going to get yourself killed, with an unloaded gun.
But it looks so cool when they do it in the movies!

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Old January 12, 2010, 07:13 AM   #147
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Quote:
This thread just blows me away.
Me too, the guy in the OP's video just standing there going click, click, click until dead...is horrific.
Justify chamber empty however you want if it makes you feel better, but I don't see the logic myself.
Watch video again for my reasoning.
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Old January 12, 2010, 07:46 AM   #148
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Question for Bluetrain

Bluetrain: What do you carry and what condition? Have you ever been involved in a gun fire exchange?
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Old January 12, 2010, 11:03 AM   #149
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I do not have a permit, which is irrelevant. At no point in this thread have I suggested that chamber loaded is a bad carry method, only defending chamber empty carry. Someone else brought up the subject, after all, for reasons I don't understand. I guess it's his business. But you can carry any old way you want as far as I'm concerned, provided you extend the same privilage to anyone else.

Nope, I've not been in a gunfight, been shot at, been stopped for speeding, been robbed, held up, held down or had my house burgled. I cannot understand how so many people here have had such bad experiences. I cannot understand how I've led such a peaceful life, even when I spent three years in the army. It wasn't that way so much when I was younger and my face has rather more than it's share of scars, also irrelevant.

There is a lot of ego and bravado in this thread, isn't there. People have suggested that they are better trained than the police and that anyone with a gun should be better trained than average. Think about that. Are people walking around expecting to be attacked from ten yards away and that they'll be able to draw and shoot in time? Do people really think that chambering a round in an automatic pistol is so impossible?

What are your own personal experiences that lead you to believe that your solutions are the best?
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Old January 12, 2010, 11:18 AM   #150
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I don't personally care what people do. Condition 3, condition 4, no gun at all... whatever, it's your life. But trying to defend an absurdly poor decision is silly.

There is no reason to carry a drop safe pistol cond 3. None. You can certainly do it if you want, but don't pretend there is any logical reason. You can say "Well it's really not that big of a disadvantage" but I've yet to see any valid reason why it would be a better choice.
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