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Old December 30, 2009, 03:42 PM   #101
BlueTrain
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Yes, but can you do it in the dark?
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Old December 30, 2009, 06:18 PM   #102
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I'm still waiting for a reason to carry Condition 3 aside from "I'm scared of my gun."
Me to!

Really, except for having a non-drop safe pistol, or maybe carrying it in a super snatchable holster, I see no reason for carrying chamber empty, but alot of reasons to carry it fully loaded!
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Old December 31, 2009, 11:13 AM   #103
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What kind of holster do you use?
Actually, we all use on-body safes.

Still, I worry that it's just too accessible.....



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Old January 5, 2010, 05:25 AM   #104
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The Reporter interviewing Lance Thomas was theoretically curling his lip, at the thought of someone fighting for what was his, and his life.

What a pity that he had (Lance) finished in the main street store location b/4 he had the best pistol, in a good holster, on a good belt, at the correct location on the belt. Hi capacity? Works for him.

Would it not have been so much better to have had the instruction first, by a competent Gun carrier, the same instructor visiting his place of business as well, and showing the fields of fire, showing how to mount an iron on patch inside his jacket, a little weight in the jacket pocket.

Good luck to him.
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Old January 5, 2010, 07:15 AM   #105
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I'm scared of my two year old getting ahold of my gun. That's the reason I always have the chamber empty whether I'm carrying or it's in the safe.
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Old January 5, 2010, 10:25 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by stargazer65
I'm scared of my two year old getting ahold of my gun. That's the reason I always have the chamber empty whether I'm carrying or it's in the safe.
Keep it on your person. That is the best way to ensure that your child will not get your gun. I have a two year old as well. He isn't very curious about daddy's guns, but he does know they go "bang" (he's been to the gun range, though he stays in the car with an adult while others shoot).

All of our guns are in a safe location, all the time. On your person is the safest.
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Old January 5, 2010, 10:39 AM   #107
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I'm scared of my two year old getting ahold of my gun.
Then you should do a better job of securing it. Or get rid of it. But carrying with the chamber empty, rendering your gun useless for any practical purpose, is a poor answer. If you are so uncomfortable having a loaded weapon (a USEFUL weapon) around, perhaps you shouldn't have one around at all?
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Old January 5, 2010, 12:19 PM   #108
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I do keep it loaded, and I also keep it on my person or locked in the safe. She's not going to get it as long as I don't make a mistake. I've only been carrying it for six weeks, may change my mind later about what condition to keep it in.
I don't see why I need to have a round chambered when I'm at home however. It's not like commandos are busting in through the windows. If I was out in public sure, I know things can happen quickly, but I don't see it's necessary at home...yet.
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Old January 5, 2010, 01:00 PM   #109
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I don't see why I need to have a round chambered when I'm at home however. It's not like commandos are busting in through the windows. If I was out in public sure, I know things can happen quickly, but I don't see it's necessary at home...yet.
Let me share some personal experiences.

About 45 years ago I was home alone and I thought I heard noises at night, I loaded a .32 Regulation Police revolver and stayed awake for a while. The next day at work I decided it would be safer to have the gun empty, and I decided to unload it.

That evening, before I had unloaded the gun, someone decided to break in through the back door. I got to the gun very, very quickly and stopped the guy without a shot. I would not have been able to load the gun, and I was running so fast that I'm not sure that I could have operated the slide an an automatic. Possible but I'm not sure. It doesn't take long to smash though a door.

Later, I decided that an empty semi-auto would be the best answer--just put in the magazine and cycle the slide and you're ready. For some reason I kept the gun loaded, and when someone got in and started attacking my mother and another person, I was able to get into action in time. The sound of the slide would most likely have tipped the guy off, with disastrous consequences.

People seem to think they will hear a noise and have time to get to the gun, usually kept in a night stand. Maybe it will happen that way and maybe they can--but maybe not.

Consider your house layout. In mine, unless we both happen to be upstairs, an invader could easily get between me and a gun in the bedroom or between me and my wife. The only solution I can come up with is to keep the gun on my person during waking hours.

Will someone break in suddenly? Unlikely, if he thinks I am at home, but if I walk into the kitchen and surprise a violent criminal actor inside or in the act of coming inside, it's about the same as being outside, but with less warning.
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Old January 5, 2010, 01:42 PM   #110
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I just knew it would come to this: if you aren't willing to carry your gun with a chambered round, you should not own a gun.

First, the discussion hasn't been about revolvers (so far). Second, if you think that gun handling is that difficult, are you suggesting that owners be forbidden to own a gun unless they have completed a course and become certified by something like Gunsite? For those who care to use an automatic pistol and to keep the chamber loaded but are not so interested in having it cocked and locked, there is a new fangled thing called a double action automatic and some of them have the totally unnecessary feature that prevents firing if the magazine is out. Keith thought it was a good idea, if only it came in .45. I've been practicing inserting the magazine using only one hand after being awakened in the dark. So far I've just had trouble finding where I left the gun under my pillow. You see, it hurts my head and I keep pushing it out of the way. I know, it's supposed to be a comfort. I think maybe them new plastic guns might be better under the pillow but I still haven't made up my mind.
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Old January 6, 2010, 02:08 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by stargazer65
I do keep it loaded, and I also keep it on my person or locked in the safe. ...
I don't see why I need to have a round chambered when I'm at home however. It's not like commandos are busting in through the windows. If I was out in public sure, I know things can happen quickly, but I don't see it's necessary at home...yet.
Why shouldn't you keep it loaded when you're out, but unloaded at home? Because those are inconsistent "states of readiness" which call for inconsistent procedures. When/if something ever happens, the last thing you want to have to think about is whether or not the chamber is loaded or not.
Keep it on you, or lock it up...but don't keep the chamber empty.

I just read a story a few days ago from a member on another forum on this issue. When he was in Iraq (he's a Marine), his vehicle commander told his squad that they were not to have their rifles chambered while they were in the vehicle. This went against what they had been doing up to that time. Sure enough, they found themselves in some hot water and he had to engage a threat. What do you think happened? He saw the threat, got a sight picture, and then got a "click" instead of a bang because he forgot that the chamber was empty. Thankfully he was well-practiced on malfunction drills, hence he automatically ran the charging handle, got back on target, and shot the guy.
The scary thing is, had he not had the malfunction-clearance ingrained as an automatic response (which most shooters/cops/ccw'ers probably don't), he could have easily been dead.
The lesson: Inconsistency has the potential to get you into a lot of trouble.
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Old January 6, 2010, 07:55 PM   #112
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Why shouldn't you keep it loaded when you're out, but unloaded at home? Because those are inconsistent "states of readiness" which call for inconsistent procedures. When/if something ever happens, the last thing you want to have to think about is whether or not the chamber is loaded or not.
Keep it on you, or lock it up...but don't keep the chamber empty.
I agree Ken.

There are several advantages for chamber carry plus a few disadvantages.

1) Simplicity. No need to add another step to get the weapon in action.
2) Immediate first shot in the shortest time period, especially from retention position (that is grabbing distance.)
3) No need for two hands to chamber. You may have one hand hurt or busy and not be able to use two hands. Grappling with an attacker also makes chambering with two hands rather tough. Opponent may slam you to the ground, or grab the weapon, or just punch you while you try to chamber a round.
4) When under pressure you might short stroke the action and jam the weapon.

The downside is that if you forget the gun is loaded you can pull the trigger and have a AD/ND (but then, just KYFFOTFT till the weapon is on target.) Yes there are AD/NDs every year. No doubt many have their weapons chamber loaded, but then many are ‘cleaning’ their weapons and well, who knows what state their weapons was really in.

Now chamber empty has a few advantages.

1) A gun snatch will give you a few seconds for the BG to react (you hope) to get the weapon back.
2) If you have kids, and the slide is hard to rack, it's less chancy of they get the gun somehow (but then, just pick the gun up, ok.)
3) If your gun is not drop safe, then chamber empty is the best way to carry.

Overall, chamber empty is an inferior technique for most people. There are some where it serves a purpose, but for most, chamber loaded is the better technique for a defensive handgun.
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Old January 7, 2010, 09:59 AM   #113
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2) If you have kids, and the slide is hard to rack, and you are irresponsible and leave the gun somewhere where your child can access it, it's less chancy of they get the gun somehow (but then, just pick the gun up, ok.)
There...fixed it for ya....
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Old January 7, 2010, 12:58 PM   #114
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I've actually moved past condition three, and into condition seven, skipping four through six without even pausing.

For those not familiar, condition seven is where I carry a pistol's slide, my wife carries the frame and my adult son carries the magazine. With a little practice, I can be ready to defend us in only a little over two minutes.

Still, I'm a bit hesitant about having the weapon so very nearly assembled. We're discussing moving to condition thirty seven, which is where I carry the slide, my wife carries the frame, my adult son carries the unloaded magzine and we don't carry any ammo at all, hoping that in an emergency some passer-by will have spare 9mm to lend. Anybody else using this?
Good Sarcasm.

The first week after I bought my pistol I didn't even put a loaded magazine in it because it made me nervous.

I just got used to the idea of carrying a loaded gun, I'm not used to the idea of carrying a chambered round yet.

I was raised in a gunless (somewhat anti-gun) family. I've muddled through 44 years of life without carrying or owning a handgun or even thinking much about it. So condition 3 for the past month is a step up for me.
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Old January 7, 2010, 02:12 PM   #115
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You'll get more comfortable as time goes on, stargazer65. It took me a while as well. I was raised in a pro-gun family that owned zero guns (but had no problems with others doing so). I bought my first "real" gun at 23. It was a wheel gun, but I was so scared that I kept it unloaded. When we heard a crash in the night one time, it took me over a minute to get it loaded. If that'd been a bad guy, we would've been dead.

These days, I carry a Sigma .40 (no safety) chambered. I drill more than I shoot. I think that is key to becoming safe and comfortable.

P.S. I put my Sigma up out of my two year old's grasp in a locked closet when I come in for the day. I then slip a smaller gun in my pocket.
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Old January 7, 2010, 07:44 PM   #116
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P.S. I put my Sigma up out of my two year old's grasp in a locked closet when I come in for the day. I then slip a smaller gun in my pocket.
Very good CorpITGuy. Make sure that pocket gun does not stray, but yes I've now read that in NY they have the highest number of kids killed with guns they find. And get this, alot of them are NYPD cops kids! The cops leave their service DAO pistols out when they get home and the small children pick them up and end up dead.

Where I'm at the kids are gown. No grand kids yet (but I know that day will come!!) So the pocket pistol, as long as it stays on you, is the best solution.

Yes you can train you kids to not touch them, but what about their friends? So, CorpITGuy's method is a good one if you want an weapon quickly but can't leave loaded ones around.
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Old January 8, 2010, 06:54 AM   #117
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I still think too many of the arguments here are based on not being able to do something quickly under stress, while countering that another method is safe, easy and fast and practically failsafe.

Everyone will have unique circumstances in which they live and what works for one person will not necessarily be the best thing for anyone else. And you also have to give people credit for being able to handle things themselves. It's no trick to get out of a car with a standard transmission and into one with an automatic or vice versa and drive away with no trouble, and to be able to handle a stressful situation where you have to react quickly without crashing. That sort of thing happens all the time when you're driving.

Can it be possible that a person can be so over trained that he is incapable of efficiently handling more than one time of firearm? I'd even bet there are people here who carry both a revolver and an automatic. I likewise doubt you need to be a champion pistol shooter to do all this either. I will admit there might be some difficult maintaining peak efficiency all the time, however, no matter what your carry methods might be.
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Old January 8, 2010, 07:59 AM   #118
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In a more-or-less sporting situation like competition shooting, I could understand that an empty chamber would be a good idea to add to the challenge factor. But carrying for self-defense doesn't qualify as a sporting situation. Do we really think an armed BG is going to be carrying chamber-empty because it's more "sporting?"
IMO, we need all the advantage we can get (i.e. loaded chamber only). And even then it might not be enough.
But that's just how I feel about it, doesn't have to be how you feel about it.
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Old January 8, 2010, 08:06 AM   #119
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I don't think the bad guy is going to try to out draw anyone.

But as I've said before, not every gun is the same either. Some lend themselves very nicely to one or more methods of carry, while others do not. You use what you have the way you think best. And none of this even begins to address how you go about selecting a handgun in the first place. Now a funny thing is that probably no one posting in this thread has just one handgun and no doubt they all are a little different. It is unfortunate that so few good handguns come in small, medium and large, though some have, the Colt Government Model comes to mind. But that's another topic.

And besides, who says we're all good guys?
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Old January 8, 2010, 01:57 PM   #120
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Everyone will have unique circumstances in which they live and what works for one person will not necessarily be the best thing for anyone else.
I really am curious what circumstances would merit chamber empty carry.
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Old January 8, 2010, 02:16 PM   #121
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I really am curious what circumstances would merit chamber empty carry.
The only reason that would occur to me is if you had a single-action autoloader whose safety didn't work properly, by design or malfunction. I have a 1935 Beretta which has a poorly-designed safety which requires you to rotate the lever 180 degrees or carry chamber-empty!
Consequence: The Beretta remains a safe queen.
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Old January 8, 2010, 02:35 PM   #122
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Takes a little longer to draw here...

In Riverside County California, before I can carry condition 3 or 1 I need to get past the following:

Quote:
ADDITIONAL ITEMS REQUIRED IF APPLYING STRICTLY FOR PERSONAL PROTECTION.

Current police reports and / or other documentation supporting need, such as restraining orders or other verifiable written statements.

VALID DEATH THREATS OR HARRASSMENT ARE THE ONLY CRITERIA
WHERE ISSUANCE OF A CCW PERMIT WILL BE CONSIDERED FOR
PERSONAL PROTECTION. THE RIVERSIDE COUNTY SHERIFF DOES NOT
ISSUE PERMITS TO "PROVIDE A FEELING OF SAFETY" OR TO
ALLEVIATE A "FEAR OF VICTIMIZATION".


So, the BG first needs to threaten me. Then I need to get a restraining order and verify in court that there is really a death threat against me. Then apply for the CCW, go through two interviews ($100 each) and then pay the fee for a two year CCW ($122), present three letters of reference from non-faimly members, then qualify on my handgun.

If I remember correctly, California requires that you have CCW guns UNLOADED when carrying (I could be wrong).

Makes we want to have Fienstien, Boxer and Polosi put in a law that says "Law Enforcement Agencies and Law Enforcement Officers must comply with all firearm laws that apply to the private citizen." This is not an attack on LEO or LEAs, just irratation with the stupid infringements of my right to self defense. Maybe then the laws will be more reasonable, but I doubt it.

So, my Bersa Thunder 380 is totally useless except at home. But Calif. laws require the guns to be locked up, and with the ammo preferrably locked in a different security cabinet. Of course, you can carry on your person on your own property.
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Old January 8, 2010, 03:24 PM   #123
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For most things I tend to fall back on my 20+ years of military training. TRAIN HOW YOU ARE GOING TO FIGHT! keep it simple and keep it consistent.

If you do things the same way ALL THE TIME in low stress conditions you tend to do them that way under stress, without thinking.

Hence the commander in the hum-v story was an incompetent leader. Never should have changed SOP with out making it SOP first, by drilling it relentlessly back home in the USA. Not under stress in Iraq.

Last edited by Chaz88; January 8, 2010 at 07:36 PM.
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Old January 8, 2010, 03:31 PM   #124
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Just to enlighten us, for those of you who carry automatics with the chamber loaded (any caliber, any model), what is your daily procedure. What happens when you get home? What is your weekly procedure? How often is the pistol cleaned? How is it stored? Is it your only handgun you regularly use?
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Old January 8, 2010, 05:41 PM   #125
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