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Old December 22, 2009, 07:39 PM   #76
SigP6Carry
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Raftman, the A75 is a Sig clone, IIRC, which means it should be drop safe. Well.... "drop safe." IIRC, the firing pin doesn't activate until the trigger is pulled. I can here it in my Sig "deactivating" when I release the trigger slowly from pulling it halfway through a DA pull.
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Old December 22, 2009, 09:24 PM   #77
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Why inject Murphy into an already marginal equation by carrying empty chamber? Adding an unecessary and self-induced requirement to load under stress is unwise. Don't bet your life by adding branches and sequels for failure which are based upon dangerous assumptions:

1. That you will have both time and physical ability to rack the slide.
2. That the feeding cycle will be reliable and won't require remedial action.
3. That you will have a weak hand to speedily accomplish loading.
4. That you will always be smooth, fast, composed, fumble-free…and lucky.
5. That you won't be taken by suprise (and probably at touching distance).

In my experience, life and death struggles tend to happen much faster than most folks would believe.

I think CCW pistols should be one handed point and click devices. KISS.

Naturally, having a gun (even chamber empty) is preferred to being unarmed.
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Old December 22, 2009, 11:40 PM   #78
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"Why inject Murphy into an already marginal equation by carrying empty chamber?"

There's no good reason; and over the years, I may have heard or read them all.
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Old December 22, 2009, 11:41 PM   #79
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You know it's funny all the responses in the thread on one handed shooting (that is Would you carry a gun you cannot accurately shoot one handed?), and how most of them agreed one handed shooting is a must, but for some reason there are those that feel here in this thread that even if you have to shoot with one handed only, you will have two hands to load the gun!

As outlined by many people here, there definatly are circumstances you will only have one hand, period, to use. And circumstances were you will be grappling with your opponent. And circumstances where you can cause a malfunction loading your weapon in a hurry.

It's a wise idea to keep your weapon fully loaded and ready to use at a moments notice with nothing needed to keep it from going into action. Like taking two hands to load it.
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Old December 23, 2009, 08:49 AM   #80
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Me again. I think maybe I need to elaborate on my previous comments.

First, I don't think it is difficult to work the slide on an automatic under stress, no more than it is to work the gear shift lever in a car under stress. The qualifying point here, however, is that some slides are easy to work and others aren't. But clearly, that is the chief difference in our discussions.

Second, it doesn't have to be slow at all, though it isn't going to be as fast as certain other things, either double action or single action cocked and locked. Remember, the discussion is not about action types but about whether or not to carry a pistol with a chambered round. It is just as easy to load an empty chamber in a double action, including Glocks, as it is a single action automatic.

I also need to digress momentarily here to insert yet another qualifier. I am under the working assumption that we are discussing more or less full sized pistols (and not revolvers, either). One of the reasons is that smaller automatics are very likely to be carried "deep cover" or something like that and that drawing the handgun from such a carry is not going to be as fast as one carried in a "normal" concealed method and the speed of the draw is one of the points of discussion here. But otherwise, the caliber of the handgun is immaterial as is the action type.

I did some experimenting last night (we all do homework after reading and contributing here, don't we?) using the only automatic I have that satisfies my qualifying remarks above, which is a Walther P5. But I had run through the same experiments with most of the other automatics I've owned at one time or another. Over the years I've concluded that it is easy (to work the slide and chamber a round) with some, not so easy with others. I've found the Glock, in my case a Model 19, to be especially easy. In fact, I highly recommend it if you are happy with the trigger and it isn't too big for you. Colt Government Models are easy but I found the Browning Hi-Power a little more difficult for some reason, probably because the slide is a little narrower.

So what's the big deal? Especially since I'm lumping DA automatics, Glocks and good old-fashioned single action Government Models together? Aren't double action automatics good to carry with a round chambered? Well, certainly, ignoring any discussion of safeties (the Walther P5 has none) but then so is the Colt Government Model, with either hammer down or cocked and locked, for that matter. It's always nice to have choices.

Well, this is the reason: safety and little else. I know, you still need two hand, though if you only need one hand, your gun hand had better be free. I don't think I could draw any of my handguns with my left hand except for a couple of cross draw holsters and a reverse draw revolver, all with flaps. But leaving aside that minor problem, the crux of the matter is the increased handling required when the pistol is carried with a cartridge chambered. That is, unless your pistol is continuously carried day and night, and is left in the same state but suitably secured when you sleep. But for those who might carry only sometimes and do not carry their gun at home, then frequent chambering and unloading simply increases the possibility of something going wrong. If you got some new magazines, you wouldn't unload the old ones by running all the cartridges through the action, would you?

But remember, I'm not trying to convince you to carry with an empty chamber but merely defending the practice for those that care to employ that method.

Whether or not the chamber is loaded is only one factor in getting your automatic into action anyway. I found that in the car with the seat belt fastened, drawing a gun from behind the hip is difficult, to say the least, going on impossible. But like your house, the car has locks. Even sitting in some chairs in the house, shop or office, the same problem exists. Of all gun positions, a cross draw or so-called Appendix carry seems to present the fewest obstacles and the least gymnastics required (you get a little stiff as you get older) to make a quick draw. The main problem is concealment, which is assumed for everything here. I've never experimented wtih shoulder holsters.

The thing is, most people here are not policemen who presumably have to carry their pistol a certain way in a certain holster because that's the way they are trained and they have to follow the rules. Anyone else is free to do as they choose. Everyone will have unique circumsatances and conditions that they will have to work out all on their own. Even a professional trainer will only help you so much but here again we assume that you all have sufficient time on the firing line (a real one, not this one) with your handgun and a certain amount of mechanical familiarity with it as well, meaning you can take it apart and put it back together, at least in daylight.

Have fun. Don't put your eye out.
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Old December 23, 2009, 09:32 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
But leaving aside that minor problem, the crux of the matter is the increased handling required when the pistol is carried with a cartridge chambered. That is, unless your pistol is continuously carried day and night, and is left in the same state but suitably secured when you sleep. But for those who might carry only sometimes and do not carry their gun at home, then frequent chambering and unloading simply increases the possibility of something going wrong.
This is absolutely God's Own Truth. People shouldn't diddle with their CCW pistols so much; all that chambering and unchambering and fiddling is just a big ol' invitation to disaster. "Cold Ranges" are just as bad: I am of a firm conviction that more unexpected loud noises have been caused by excessive administrative fiddle-farting around with guns to show that they're "safe" than have ever been caused by people wandering about with loaded guns safely holstered.

Load the gun. Put the gun on. Leave it on and leave it loaded if at all possible. If someone's lifestyle causes them to have to go into a lot of victim disarmament zones, they should consider carrying in a holster that allows them to remove the gun and holster as a unit.

I put mine on in the morning and take it off at night, and the round that's in the chamber has been there since last time I left a cold range.
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Old December 23, 2009, 12:34 PM   #82
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I agree with you Tamara. It should always be a 'hot range', no matter where you are. If it was like that, people would leave their roscoes alone until needed!

They just had a cop in Florida shoot himself in the left arm when he fiddled with his Glock and, as he admitted, pulled the trigger.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/cr...le-138030.html

And Google 'police accidental shooting' will show up an awful lot of AD/NDs all caused by messing with their weapon when it was unnecessary to mess with it! And don't think citizens are any safer.

Load it, holster it, and leave it alone. You will find a good holster that covers the trigger guard acts as a safety. My IWBs come off as one unit with the gun inside the holster. It stays that way in the nightstand. When I take the holster off, I've just taken the safety off!
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Old December 23, 2009, 01:14 PM   #83
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when the SHTF it's a bad time to find out the round didn't chamber. I certainly don't trust any gun to function 110%.
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Old December 23, 2009, 09:19 PM   #84
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Barney Fife carried a single round in his shirt pocket and he always came out OK. Think how proficient and deadly he would be with a semi auto, a full magazine, and an empty chamber just waiting for his cat like reflexes to explode into a slide racking, shell shucking, bug eyed, dance of death.
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Old December 23, 2009, 11:38 PM   #85
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Here's a guy that timed himself with +1 and Israeli carry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj9UMUChV-I
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Old December 24, 2009, 12:19 AM   #86
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mica,

That guy is making quite a few assumptions to justify his conclusion (that is "+1 carry is only a fraction of a second faster than empty chamber when you gotta draw and fire, and so the added safety of the empty chamber makes that method of carry preferable") and on top of that, the test isn't exactly scientific.

First off, he's assuming both hands will be immediately free whenever he needs it. Maybe he should try it again, this time with a full shopping basket in the weak hand and see if that slows him down any. Or maybe try it when his weak hand isn't free to use at all and see how long it takes for him to fire the first round. Or how about if the strong hand isn't available?

Even if both hands ARE free, he's assuming that he'll have just as easy a time working the slide of his pistol in an actual high-stress life-or-death situation as he does shooting a bucket on camera in a controlled environment. The way I see it, he exaggerates the risks of proper +1 carry and ignores the drawbacks of carrying with an empty chamber.
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Old December 24, 2009, 09:09 AM   #87
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Intentionally handicapping yourself prior to a gunfight is the action of a fool.
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Old December 24, 2009, 09:36 AM   #88
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Quote:
Here's a guy that timed himself with +1 and Israeli carry.
mica,

Did he time himself one handed?

Did he time himself while grappling with an opponent?

Did he time himself after his gun jammed from short stroking it?

Or time himself after being punched in the face (as you might in a CQ confrontation?)

In short, he timed himself on a square range in nice weather and no opposition.

And that is the whole point with having the weapon fully loaded for immediate use, one handed or two.
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Old December 27, 2009, 03:00 AM   #89
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you have to keep it ready to go. one in the chamber.
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Old December 27, 2009, 09:12 PM   #90
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Here's a valid reason for y'all for carrying in Condition 3. It's the law where I live. Semi-autos aren't allowed to be carried with one in the chamber. Revolvers would, but I'm still not going for that. OTOH there are no overly strict regulations on "brandishing", I could be unholstering and loading the gun in pre-emption in a number of scenaria.

So I end each and every range session with a few drills with my carry rig and carry gun, complete with verbalization, movement and so on. And work out my environment literacy continuously. Sure, Condition 1 carry would be closer to ideal, but even so I'm much better off than a few years back where I wasn't allowed to carry at all.
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Old December 27, 2009, 10:34 PM   #91
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Igor,

Then I suggest you carry both a revolver and whatever simi-auto you carry. The revolver for immediate use if surprised and no time (or way) to chamber a round, and the simi-auto, chamber empty, that you can use if you see it coming.

Here in Texas there is no law for or against having a chamber loaded handgun. If it's legal for you to have it there, it's legal for you to have it fully loaded.

In fact in the USA I cannot think of any locality that forces you to carry chamber empty so where ever you are, I hope you are able to get to and use your weapon if ever needed, and be well skilled at using hand and foot (as I am.)
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Old December 28, 2009, 09:44 AM   #92
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These Force-on-Force drills are from a USCCA FAQ:
Quote:
1. "Attacker" with knife starts not more than 25 feet away from you, and will initiate the test by charging at you with the knife. Draw, chamber, and fire at least one, preferably two, disabling shots before they can hit you with the knife. You are allowed to dodge, retreat, or otherwise move around as you do this.

2. "Attacker" with knife starts not more than six feet away, and initiates the test by attacking. You must avoid a crippling or killing cut or thrust in any way you see fit, but must end the attack by drawing, chambering, and firing your pistol, scoring at least one good hit.

3. Put what is normally your support or off-hand in a sling. At the signal, draw, chamber, and fire one round without using the immobilized hand in any way.
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Old December 29, 2009, 01:19 AM   #93
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I always carry a chambered round for all of the practical and obvious reasons already delineated by those that posted before me.

Below is a link to a video showing a store owner that thankfully didn't make the mistake of carrying an unchambered weapon..

Actually this video probably really deserves its own thread and discussion but I'll just link it here since it is past my bed time
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Old December 29, 2009, 02:34 AM   #94
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An article to go with the video above.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1

Mr. Thomas decided that not only was chamber empty carry too slow, he also decided that reloading was too slow. He placed guns strategically around his shop where he could access them rapidly in the event that the one he was using ran dry or malfunctioned.

In his first gunfight he fired 3 rounds.

In his second gunfight he emptied 3 guns.
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Old December 29, 2009, 11:06 AM   #95
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To me, the argument is simple. Once I fell down and broke my wrist and ribs. Ouch. If it were in a fight - going for the gun with my uninjured hand and racking it would have been a horror.

I've trained several times for one handed injured shooter drills. I see no need to engage these skills by the choice of handicapping myself. Also, when you fall down and break yourself - you feel crappy and your skills might degrade.
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Old December 29, 2009, 05:51 PM   #96
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Quote:
I've trained several times for one handed injured shooter drills. I see no need to engage these skills by the choice of handicapping myself.
Glenn;

Two years ago I had to wear a wrist brace for several weeks. I simply switched to a lefty holster and swapped my mag pouch around went on my way. I don't think ambi training gets it due either.
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Old December 29, 2009, 07:38 PM   #97
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Both Glenn and smince are quite right.

I broke my right hand in TKD long time ago and found out I was a rotten shot with my left using my Colt Commander .45 I used back then.

And I've many times jammed my fingers in TKD as well as other sports (and had to shoot a IPSC or IDPA match with jammed fingers the next day!!)

So don't handicap yourself. Keep the weapon fully loaded and learn to at least be a passible shot with your weak side hand.
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Old December 29, 2009, 07:42 PM   #98
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I'm still waiting for a reason to carry Condition 3 aside from "I'm scared of my gun."
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Old December 30, 2009, 02:47 PM   #99
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I've actually moved past condition three, and into condition seven, skipping four through six without even pausing.

For those not familiar, condition seven is where I carry a pistol's slide, my wife carries the frame and my adult son carries the magazine. With a little practice, I can be ready to defend us in only a little over two minutes.

Still, I'm a bit hesitant about having the weapon so very nearly assembled. We're discussing moving to condition thirty seven, which is where I carry the slide, my wife carries the frame, my adult son carries the unloaded magzine and we don't carry any ammo at all, hoping that in an emergency some passer-by will have spare 9mm to lend. Anybody else using this?

Larry
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Old December 30, 2009, 03:12 PM   #100
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What kind of holster do you use?
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