The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old December 21, 2009, 08:06 PM   #51
KenpoTex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2009
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman
The only real application is to establish a rough guess of the time possibly available to a civilian to shoot a potential attacker coming at him with a contact weapon after he is lawfully permitted to reach for is gun.

In the vast majority of jurisdictions in this county, a civilian may not lawfully even reach for his gun until he is in imminent danger and deadly force is immediately necessary--for example, until a potential attacker is close enough to be able to strike or slash him before he can defend himself.. The Tueller drill, though by no means applicable in every situation and though not necessarily authoritative, puts the distance at which a standing attacker can do that is roughly seven yards. That's based on an assumed 1.5 second draw time.
The reason I said I don't think it's really applicable is that the whole 7-yard thing is merely, as you said, the average distance that a person has to have in order to draw and fire their weapon when confronted with a known scenario and executing a pre-determined response.

There are several problems with trying to use this as the basis for any type of doctrine:
  • There are going to be differences in draw time based on where/how the gun is carried and how much the user practices. Doing this from concealment (pocket carry, IWB under a closed-front garment, etc.) is going to be much different than doing it from an open belt-holster.
  • Even if you get rounds on target, there is no guarantee that the attacker's momentum is going to cease, so you still have the problem of a BG hurtling towards you with a weapon.
  • We're not really going to be in a simple reaction time situation. Going through the whole OODA-Loop process is going to take longer than a simple stimulus/response paradigm.
  • Expecting the threat to manifest itself at 7+ yards is a little unrealistic. Most incidents occur at something like 0-3 yards (basically, conversational distances) which cuts our available time significantly. I'm referring to the FBI stats for police shootings as I think they are analogous to situations citizens might face, at least insofar as the dynamics of the fight (if not the circumstances) are concerned.

The only thing I think we should really take away from the Tueller Drill is that an adversary armed with a contact-weapon is dangerous from much farther away than many might think. As a result, we should seek to maximize the reactionary gap, or be prepared to utilize other skillsets (empty-hand combatives, etc.) to manage the threat until we can cleanly access our pistol.
Assuming that we're actually going to have 1.5 seconds (or whatever) is, to me, making assumptions that are not necessarily supported by reality.

Back to the OP, this is even more reason not to handicap ourselves by carrying with an empty chamber. Doing so is just dumb.
__________________
"Either you are the weapon and your gun is a tool, or your gun is the weapon and you are a tool."

Matt K.
KenpoTex is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 08:28 PM   #52
Huntergirl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2005
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 907
One can talk theory all day. What would really be helpful, especially to the naysayers, is a study of many actual cases of civilian CCW responders to a threat, the outcome , and the method of carry.
Huntergirl is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 08:51 PM   #53
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntergirl
One can talk theory all day. What would really be helpful, especially to the naysayers, is a study of many actual cases of civilian CCW responders to a threat, the outcome , and the method of carry.
It might be interesting academically, assuming that we could gather sufficient reliable and detailed information. But otherwise, all that tells us is statistically what's happened in the past. That's really not going to tell you where your particular future "bad day" is going to fall on the bell curve.

Rare events happen. Your violent encounter could be statistical anomaly, but that won't make it any less serious to you.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 08:59 PM   #54
Kyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Posts: 897
guy in the video didn't look like he trained much. no offense to the dead, but he did not look confident in his abilities with his firearm at all. training could have made all the difference in that situation.
He could have emptied his mag into those guys before they even got to him
__________________
1. The gun is always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot.
4. Be be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
Kyo is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 09:08 PM   #55
dondavis3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 20, 2009
Location: Dallas / Fort Worth Area
Posts: 671
I always carry fully loaded.
__________________
Don Davis
dondavis3 is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 10:17 PM   #56
Dihappy
Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 17
However, heres a great reason for badguys to carry unchambered.

It at least give "some" people a split second chance (not this guy)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b8a_1261187213&p=1
Dihappy is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 11:24 PM   #57
Cruncher Block
Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2008
Posts: 63
Quote:
But, I recall a cop showing his Glock to a classroom full of children that shot himself in the leg because he failed to handle his gun properly - maybe he was distracted, who knows....BLAM and the cop took a bullet to the leg due to his carelessness. I can guaranty you that I have less training with my gun than that cop did.
Skans, you might have less training than that officer but I think I've seen the same video and I feel safe saying you probably have less arrogance and carelessness than him.

Seriously, he unholstered the pistol in a classroom, held it up, and talked big-guy about how he was the only person in the room with the training to be able to carry that weapon. I'm sure his intentions were in the right place with a "scared straight" message but the showboating... ahem... backfired.

Last edited by Cruncher Block; December 21, 2009 at 11:29 PM.
Cruncher Block is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 02:23 AM   #58
raftman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,889
First time, I ever carried, it was with an empty chamber. It was a something of a psychological decision, I didn't really have any sort of rationale behind it, other than it somehow "felt" dangerous.

That was also the last time I carried with an empty chamber. Figured, what if I only had one free hand when a situation arose? Furthermore, with my pistol at the time, the slide was on the stiff side... easily workable when practicing, but couldn't trust myself to do it in a high-stress situation. Figured if you know your gun, and how to carry it safely, carrying with one in chamber is plenty safe. On top of that, it gives you one more round, which is particularly nice if you have a gun that doesn't have all that large a capacity. Always better to have one more. Also, I don't think that carrying with a +1 is restricted to fancy, expensive guns. There's plenty of pistols out there in the 300's, 200's and even below $200 that are safe to carry with one in the chamber.
__________________
"My momma, she done told me, there's heart and then there's hate
If one of 'em's inside of you, the other one, it aint."

Last edited by raftman; December 22, 2009 at 02:36 AM.
raftman is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 04:16 AM   #59
GrigoriRasputin
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2009
Location: Lexington, SC
Posts: 6
Always Carry With One In The Chamber

I am with the ones on here who see no good reason to carry a sidearm with an empty chamber, possibly excepting a gun that would be prone to AD if dropped or bumped. My answer to that is to get rid of it and get a better quality firearm for daily carry.

If it really makes you feel better, then do as you please. It is your decision and your life that may hang in the balance for such a nonsensical habit. Please, however, do not try and force your preference on those who carry with one in the pipe. I have two friends who, as I and most of my friends do, ALWAYS carry with one in the pipe. One has a brother who occasionally shares a residence with him and who has this fetish about carrying his SIG P-226 with an empty chamber. Both are in the Security field. What infuriates my friend (and rightfully so) is that his "empty chamber" brother will find his sidearm and examine it. Nothing wrong there but when he is finished examining it, he always leaves it where he found it with an empty chamber. That friend found himself in a deadly force situation about six months ago and thankfully, his chamber was loaded. Had his brother done his idiotic trick of leaving the gun with an empty chamber and my friend not had the presence of mind to find it before going on duty, he might be dead as he would not have had the opportunity to chamber a round. There is no way under his circumstances that he could have done this and gotten off a round in time to save himself.

Another friend's father is, as with that friend, an exceptionally bright and intelligent person. When his son gifted him with a GP-100 a few years ago, the father insisted on observing the archaic practice of carrying the gun on an empty chamber. Mind you, this guy is far more mechanically inclined and talented than I will ever dream of being, but he treated the gun as though it were a single-action Colt from yesteryear, even after having the folly of this explained to him. After several years of having this point hammered by my friend, he is finally carrying it with all six chambers loaded.

What is maddening, is that my friend has to remember to check his Glock 20 or Springfield 1911 any time his dad and he have been shooting or otherwise looking at guns because his dad does that same thoughtless trick of leaving his son's gun with an empty chamber, even though he knows his son does not carry with an empty chamber. Father or not, my friend has been much nicer about it than I would have been had ANYONE done this to me. What his father is not thinking about is that he may well sign his son's death warrant by leaving him with an empty-chambered gun if he finds himself in the same or similar situation as my friend the security officer did.

Again, if you want to carry with an empty chamber, do whatever makes you happy. Just don't endanger the lives of friends or especially family by being so thoughtless as to leave their gun with an empty chamber and not telling them.

Last edited by GrigoriRasputin; December 22, 2009 at 04:19 AM. Reason: correct spelling error
GrigoriRasputin is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 07:08 AM   #60
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 862
Hunter Girl, said

Quote:
One can talk theory all day. What would really be helpful, especially to the naysayers, is a study of many actual cases of civilian CCW responders to a threat, the outcome , and the method of carry.
This is the rational that should be used in every case of assessing, what firearm, what mode of carry, and what things you should practice on the range.
Especially with LEOs, and easier to gain this information for the Police, as they document each shooting.

Did not some famous scholar not say "Those who do not study History are bound to repeat it?"

Hunter Girl, if you did this study, one of the first lessons would be, IMHO do not carry chamber empty, I think!
Brit is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 07:10 AM   #61
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
Note that nowhere in my posting have I argued that you should not carry any handgun with a loaded chamber, but rather I am arguing that chamber empty many not be such a bad idea.

First of all, I have to qualify that by saying that it only work with certain handguns, by which I mean racking the slide and chambering is easy with some automatics, nearly impossible with others. And as for the comment that working the slide is difficult (because it takes two hands) and operating the safety is easy (because it only takes one thumb), well, that doesn't follow. Operating the slide is a gross motor skill, flicking off the safety is a fine motor skill. But I assume you make up for that by using an after market safety.

I was surprised that another mentioned how easy the slide was to work on a Glock but I don't think a Government Model is at all difficult unless it has been refinished and is slick. As for those comments about attempting to work the slide one handed, well, I agree, I don't think I could do that under the best of circumstances.

At any rate I'm glad Rasputin is willing to allow us to do as we please. And again please note, I am not forcing anyone to do as I wish but defending those who wish to do as they wish.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 07:40 AM   #62
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrigoriRasputin
Had his brother done his idiotic trick of leaving the gun with an empty chamber and my friend not had the presence of mind to find it before going on duty...
This is why I ALWAYS chamber check my weapon when it has been out of my possession, even if it was just in the night stand overnight: If I do it every time, I won't forget to do it the one time when it's important.

(Kinda like turn signals: If I signal every time, even turning into the garage, then I won't forget to signal when it's important.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
Operating the slide is a gross motor skill, flicking off the safety is a fine motor skill. But I assume you make up for that by using an after market safety.
Huh? What does an "after market safety" have to do with the price of Pekoe in Peking?
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 08:07 AM   #63
alloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
Since I assume all guns are loaded as one of the great general rules of firearm safety anyway, it's simplest....to just carry that way. Maybe others assume all firearms aren't loaded, and they carry like that. Seems like a simplistic fundamental approach to safety might be the difference of opinion.
__________________
Quote:
The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
Angelo Codevilla
alloy is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 08:18 AM   #64
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
Well, does your Government Model have a standard safety or not? That's all I'm asking. And also, I can't believe that someone would leave their handgun where it was accessible to anyone else. Say it ain't so.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 08:21 AM   #65
alloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
Don't worry about who can get to my firearms, what I said was "I assume every firearm is loaded and carry that way", I didn't say all the guns in the house are loaded, yes it has the standard safety on it that came on it. Same as my double barrels, and when quail hunting, I load that gun and trust the safety.
__________________
Quote:
The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
Angelo Codevilla
alloy is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 10:27 AM   #66
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 2,024
KenpoTex Post 51

Agree on all points, but the 0-3 yards stat has to do with the shooting distance rather than the distance at which one may be able to detect real danger.

If I draw and (have to) fire at someone charging from 20 to 25 yards away he will surely be less than ten feet away before I fire--and I'm going to be moving, to the side if possible, at that point.

If one does get into such a situation and the shooter's case is called into question, I imagine that one side might argue that the Tueller distance was an important factor and the other side might argue that it was not applicable.
OldMarksman is online now  
Old December 22, 2009, 11:08 AM   #67
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,857
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...flicking off the safety is a fine motor skill...
I see this contention a lot. But I'd like to know how anyone figures that pushing down on the 1911 (or BHP) safety with my thumb is a "fine motor skill." BTW, I do shoot 1911s and BHPs with my thumb on top of the safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
]...I assume you make up for that by using an after market safety. ...
Not sure what you mean by "after market safety." Most 1911s today come from the maker with some type of extended safety as original equipment.

The Colt tear drop safety that has been original equipment on Colt 1911s for a whole lot of years is also very easy to use (I have several Colts with such a safety and with which I practice extensively.).

If you're thinking of the old style "small tab" safety, that hasn't been original equipment on 1911s (except for a few models intending to reproduce the original military 1911 or 1911A1) for a great many years.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; December 22, 2009 at 12:41 PM.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 11:11 AM   #68
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,981
Quote:
Another option that's available is to be better trained and more proficient than that particular cop. I don't think that option is beyond your reach.

In any case, carry as you wish. As for me, I'll have a round in the chamber.
I see nothing wrong with carrying either way - round chambered or not chambered. Both methods have been used by many people successfuly for many years. I simply choose not to have a round chambered. I am proficient at using a pistol for self defense - have taken several courses and have had lots of practice. But, I don't shoot competitavely. And, I don't carry regularly either. So, I don't have a set routine that I'm 100% comfortable with that would let me keep a round always chambered. I think for those folks who carry occasionally or use a particular gun primarily for home defense and have kid(s) - not keeping a round chambered makes sense and is perfectly justifiable.

In fact, I routinely hear folks here say that a pump shotgun is the best gun for home defense.....and many add that they like the "cha-chink" factor. Well, this indicates that for home defense that many of the shotgun folks don't keep a round chambered either.

I'm just pointing out that not everyone who owsn a gun should be made to feel defenseless just because they don't keep a round chambered in their gun.
Skans is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 01:27 PM   #69
KenpoTex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2009
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman
Agree on all points, but the 0-3 yards stat has to do with the shooting distance rather than the distance at which one may be able to detect real danger.

If I draw and (have to) fire at someone charging from 20 to 25 yards away he will surely be less than ten feet away before I fire--and I'm going to be moving, to the side if possible, at that point.

If one does get into such a situation and the shooter's case is called into question, I imagine that one side might argue that the Tueller distance was an important factor and the other side might argue that it was not applicable.
Agreed, I think we're on the same page. My main point was merely that people often read more into the "Tueller rule" than they really should. In other words, we spend so much time hearing about this "21 foot rule" stuff that some people end up thinking that fights actually start at that distance as a matter of course.
It is very possible, with proper situational awareness, to pick up on a potential threat at that distance or beyond. I'm just saying that in many cases, you may not have that luxury and won't have indication that an attack is imminent until the BG has encroached much further.
__________________
"Either you are the weapon and your gun is a tool, or your gun is the weapon and you are a tool."

Matt K.
KenpoTex is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 01:35 PM   #70
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,962
I'd like to comment further on one thing, and then I'm done:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
The tenor of the previous few posts leads one to wonder whatever happened to situational awareness that some here speak of and seem to think so important.
If my situational awareness was always perfect, I probably wouldn't need the gun at all; if my Spidey-Sense detected something going down, I'd just leave.

Since I'm human, my SA is not always perfect, which is why I carry the gun. In case things go pear-shaped while I'm still trying to figure out what went wrong, I'd like to be able to shoot my way to safety and I might not have both hands available to get my heater into play.
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 01:56 PM   #71
Balog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 259
Let us hope the chamber empty advocates never have to fight off an attacker while drawing. Oh wait, I forget, they're all ninjas who never let another human get within 10 feet of them. Ninjas who are scared of their guns for no reason, but still...
Balog is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 03:30 PM   #72
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,211
Quote:
In fact, I routinely hear folks here say that a pump shotgun is the best gun for home defense.....and many add that they like the "cha-chink" factor. Well, this indicates that for home defense that many of the shotgun folks don't keep a round chambered either.

I'm just pointing out that not everyone who owsn a gun should be made to feel defenseless just because they don't keep a round chambered in their gun.
Any firearm kept on, or about ones person, with the intent of using that firearm for self defense, and he does not keep that weapon 100% ready (that means one in the pipe) is merely holding a club.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 05:00 PM   #73
RickE
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2009
Location: Kirkland Wa.
Posts: 516
I have an Astra A75 (EAA) compact .40. Sig design. It has a decocker lever, but no safety. I would be afraid it could discharge if dropped. Thoughts?
RickE is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 05:40 PM   #74
raftman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,889
Quote:
I have an Astra A75 (EAA) compact .40. Sig design. It has a decocker lever, but no safety. I would be afraid it could discharge if dropped. Thoughts?
Don't drop it!

But seriously, I'd do some research on that particular gun and see if it is built with some means to prevent discharge if dropped or if it has passed drop tests in states that require it. I believe California is one such state.
__________________
"My momma, she done told me, there's heart and then there's hate
If one of 'em's inside of you, the other one, it aint."
raftman is offline  
Old December 22, 2009, 07:31 PM   #75
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,275
Quote:
One can talk theory all day. What would really be helpful, especially to the naysayers, is a study of many actual cases of civilian CCW responders to a threat, the outcome , and the method of carry.
The guy in the video was not 'theory'. It happend.
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15823 seconds with 7 queries