The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old December 21, 2009, 03:18 PM   #26
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...One and a half seconds is pretty good (provided you can hit the target, too). Does that include reaction time?
Yes, reacting to a turning target or an audible signal -- 1.5 seconds, from concealment and firing two rounds with COM hits at 7 yards. I've done it in training and I try to keep up with regular practice.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 03:42 PM   #27
Diamond LawDawg
Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 74
Retired

Got there by having a loaded gun/w one in the pipe...anything else is a paper weight
Diamond LawDawg is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 03:55 PM   #28
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
I'm not part of the in crowd.
Almost two thousand posts and you joined over four years ago? It don't get much inner than that.

Carry how you like; it was still mostly a free country yesterday.
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is online now  
Old December 21, 2009, 03:57 PM   #29
Balog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 259
I'm interested to hear any good rationalization for carrying unchambered in an auto.

Bluetrain, are you seriously suggesting using two hands to chamber a round is simpler (easier faster etc) than flipping off a safety? I understand gun designs are different and we all have different abilities: but saying that using two hands to grab the slide, pull it back all the way, then get a firing grip is any where near as effective as getting a firing grip as one thumb/finger flips off a safety.... Well, that's just specious and incorrect.

You also seem to be making the "point" that situational awareness can magically save you from being attacked at close range. Perhaps you are one of those ninjas that seem to spend a lot of time on gun boards boasting of how they have not allowed another human to get within 10 feet of them in years, but for normal people that's simply not a possibility that can be entirely obviated.
Balog is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 04:07 PM   #30
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
I'm flattered.

I have been shooting for a long time, having got a real start in the army. I've developed a few ideas of my own over the years, meaning I've mostly decided the way I need to do things, given my own experiences and from what I could gather from reading, including this forum, limited by time, money and the equipment I had at any one time. It has been some journey.

I also admit I'm free with my opinions, though I'm hardly interested in every aspect of the subject and there's things I have almost no experience with. I've never owned a shotgun, for example. I don't seem to share too many of the expected opinions often expressed here, such as the lofty opinion of the .45 automatic, in spite of having owned several in all sizes, plus imitations and patent infringements. Those naturally entered into my opinions that I so generously share. I allow anyone here to do things their own way provided I have the same privilages. Yes, it is a free country (in some places). But I still use a stage name and I don't consider myself part of any fraternity (or sorority). I do enjoy taking the other side of the argument.

I have seen some impressive shooting from the holster, by the way, with a man using a .45 ACP revolver clearing the table with a reload, too, all in the twinkle of an eye. I also saw a man in the same match have a failure with an automatic.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 04:07 PM   #31
younggun20
Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2009
Posts: 33
Some states require an empty chamber for non permit holders to carry. In Utah i have openly carried an "unloaded" weapon since i turned 18. i would rather rack the slide and have it with me, than be in a situation where i needed it and it was at home in the dresser
younggun20 is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 04:13 PM   #32
Slopemeno
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2007
Posts: 2,377
People seem to toss around the term "Israeli Method" as though it was some superior technique...it came about because there were so many ND's with condition one carry, no doubt due to a lack of training. That's it- too many ND's so everyone had to carry in condition 3.

It might not be a bad technique to know, but for a defensve hangun- you should be ready to go one handed.
Slopemeno is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 04:19 PM   #33
Hog Hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 386
i always carry with one in the hole, but still practice loading onehanded, with each hand. i belive it is very important to practice in high stress situations. i have even taken it to the point of running a while to get my heart rate up then shooting a few clips through it. sounds stupid but it works.
Hog Hunter is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 04:27 PM   #34
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 8,041
Quote:
As in the tape, if you short stroke the weapon, ops.....
I don't keep one in the chamber for home defense. My only home defense gun is a Glock 17. I challenge anyone to try to short stroke one of those - it's hard to do. Just pulling the slide back slightly will chamber a round. Very different than many other types of guns. I've played around with my Glock enough to know just how little you need to rack the slide to chamber a round.

Now, the reason I don't keep a round chambered is because I have a 6 year old in my house. I keep it in a mini valut, but just in case I happen to make a mistake and leave it laying around - it's another degree of protection, no matter how small.

On those few occasions where I had to check out my house in the middle of the night, I have both chambered a round and not chambered a round. Reason for not chambering a round - just to make sure I don't react too quickly and shoot something or someone accidently. When I don't have a round chambered, I have my left hand gripping the slide and I can chamber one in a fraction of a second and fire rappidly - I've practiced this.

Now, I'm not at all trying to tell others how to use their pistols. The techniques I've developed are what I'm comforatable with and they work for me. I'm sure they are not the best techniques, and I'm sure there are better ways to do things. It's just that for me, I'm totally comfortable with not having a round chambered and still haveing a very capable weapon for home defense. In situations where I feel the need to carry I always keep a round chambered. If I worked in a convenience store or jewlery store, I'd keep a round chambered.
Skans is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 04:29 PM   #35
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
Followed up by shooting with two hands, correct?

Sorry, couldn't resist. However, the so-called Israeli method seems to be mostly based on the Fairbairn/Sykes school of combat shooting. His method was applied to the Shanghai Police Force in the pre-war period. You no doubt are aware the force used Colt .45 automatics, in addition to a few other handguns. But his method also called for pinning the safety in the off position. He, too, had his own ideas but admitted liking highly modified revolvers.

The problem here is that in reading his book, Shooting to Live, you eventually realize there is very little in the book describing any of the nitty gritty of the technique, that is, of actually drawing and charging the pistol before firing. He carefully illustrates shooting positions and carry methods but when it came to talking about how to do a fast draw under those conditions, well, it leaves a little something to be desired. But that may be true for other writers as well and perhaps it is something that's difficult to describe with words.

But handling the firearms training and weapon management for a very large police department just might be a little different from the problems faced by you and me.

But returning to cocked and locked again, I'd have to guess that it wasn't so much that there were a lot of accidents upon drawing the gun for actions as it was just accidents when simply handling the gun. I understand that Glocks also have this problem, yet it doesn't seem to be mentioned all that much. But that's just a guess on my part. Personally, I find the Glock 19 to be especially easy to "manipulate" when used from an empty chamber but having had so much more experience with a "normal" single action automatic, I find the lack of a real safety to be anxiety inducing. I no longer have one.

I wonder what Fairbairn would have thought of it?
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 05:10 PM   #36
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,047
I carry with one in the pipe, for all the reasons that have been reviewed before this. But I don't think it is necessary to disparage or even discourage those who don't chamber a round - they have, in many cases, evaluated their situation and made a decision they are comfortable with.

In some cases, that decision may involve where they are on a learning curve. If they are new to firearms, or even just have a new handgun and/or holster, they may choose to carry without a round chambered while they gain confidence in their new equipment, testing for things that would hang up the trigger and so forth, and in their own abilities. I don't think it is reasonable to insist that people rush their own learning curve in a way that they feel is unsafe.

There are other situations, too: As one post noted, you might choose to not chamber a round in a home defense gun if you have small children around (although I imagine most would agree that such should not be the only security afforded the weapon).

It is not helpful, and not even true, to declare that a gun without one in a chamber is useless or not worthy of carry. It can take less than a second to chamber a round if you have two hands free. That may be a critical portion of a second, and it is a disadvantage, but it is not the same as being unarmed. There are several carry methods - belly bands, Smart Carry, and the like - that require two hands and an additional second or two to draw that don't get the same adamant criticism as carrying with an empty chamber. A person who is armed, but with an empty chamber, or who is carrying in a way that takes an extra moment to bring a handgun into action, still has a better chance of survival than someone with no access to a weapon. Maybe not optimum, but better.

Last edited by TailGator; December 21, 2009 at 05:59 PM.
TailGator is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 05:44 PM   #37
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by TailGator
There are several carry methods - belly bands, Smart Carry, and the like, that require two hands and an additional second or two to draw that don't get the same adamant criticism as carrying with an empty chamber.
A perceptive point.

I'll note, however, that much like carrying in Condition 3, I strongly disfavor any method of carry that turns a handgun into a handSgun. This is part of the reason that in winter months, I keep a J-frame in the outer pocket of my parka: I don't trust myself to be able to acces the 1911 on my belt one-handed under a heavy coat and a fleece pullover.
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is online now  
Old December 21, 2009, 06:06 PM   #38
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 8,041
Quote:
I strongly disfavor any method of carry that turns a handgun into a handSgun.
Oh, come on, I bet you use two hands to hold the gun when you shoot.

On some handguns, racking the slide can lead to problems. Racking the slide on a Beretta 92 or a 1911 is much different than racking the slide on a Glock. For as much as I complain about the Glock's trigger, there are some really good things about the Glock 17- it's the easiest handgun in the world to chamber a round with no problems.

How many of you folks who don't favor having an empty chamber have ever tried it with a Glock? Have you ever even tried this method for home defense........or are you just saying: "naaaaaa, empty chamber is no good.....never tried it.....never practiced that way......never wood!".

We can all watch the video that the OP posted and go: "Oooooo, that was bad". But, I recall a cop showing his Glock to a classroom full of children that shot himself in the leg because he failed to handle his gun properly - maybe he was distracted, who knows....BLAM and the cop took a bullet to the leg due to his carelessness. I can guaranty you that I have less training with my gun than that cop did. So, that's how I justify taking a little more precaution than the well trained cop who shot his own leg and not keeping a round chambered in my Glock.

Last edited by Skans; December 21, 2009 at 06:13 PM.
Skans is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 06:24 PM   #39
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,150
I know different folks can witness the same event and see different things. Here's my take on what happened.

The bad guys came in quick and the owner was shot immediately. He, none the less, drew his weapon causing the bad guys to back off. When they saw he couldn't get his gun to work, they came in for the kill.

Seems to be a lot of speculation that he short stroked his gun. Looks like he made at least a couple attempts to get it loaded. If he short stroked it two or three times with all that adrenaline, then that seems a little odd.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 06:31 PM   #40
KenpoTex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2009
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
One and a half seconds is pretty good (provided you can hit the target, too). Does that include reaction time?
Kinda...because of the way those types of tests are structured, we're really only talking about simple reaction time which consists of one stimulus and one response ("when you see the guy move, draw and fire"). This takes less time to perform than recognition reaction time (multiple stimuli, one possible response) or choice reaction time (multiple stimuli, selecting the appropriate response from multiple possibilities).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time
http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm

Personally, I don't really see that the "Tueller rule" has much to do with the situation in question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans
...So, that's how I justify taking a little more precaution than the well trained cop who shot his own leg and not keeping a round chambered in my Glock....
just because someone is a cop doesn't mean they're well trained...in the case you mention (I assume you're referring to the DEA agent) common sense isn't a given either.
__________________
"Either you are the weapon and your gun is a tool, or your gun is the weapon and you are a tool."

Matt K.

Last edited by KenpoTex; December 21, 2009 at 06:38 PM.
KenpoTex is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 06:32 PM   #41
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans
Oh, come on, I bet you use two hands to hold the gun when you shoot....
Only if I can. And I do practice shooting with one hand so that not having both hands available won't prevent me from dealing with the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans
...So, that's how I justify taking a little more precaution than the well trained cop who shot his own leg and not keeping a round chambered in my Glock....
Another option that's available is to be better trained and more proficient than that particular cop. I don't think that option is beyond your reach.

In any case, carry as you wish. As for me, I'll have a round in the chamber.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 06:48 PM   #42
Rayndeon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2008
Posts: 128
Quote:
For as much as I complain about the Glock's trigger, there are some really good things about the Glock 17- it's the easiest handgun in the world to chamber a round with no problems.
Truth:

Glock 17 chambering without touching the slide


Ninja Load (Watch what he does at 00:14)

One Hand Loading (Not a Glock 17, but still a Glock)

Nice huh?
Rayndeon is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 07:16 PM   #43
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Seems to be a lot of speculation that he short stroked his gun. Looks like he made at least a couple attempts to get it loaded. If he short stroked it two or three times with all that adrenaline, then that seems a little odd.
Let's just say guys he surely failed to get the weapon to chamber and fire, short stroke or whatever the exact cause, but when he racked the slide it sure didn’t go ‘bang’.

The main problem with chamber empty is the fact you have added a very critical step to your already complex steps needed to get your weapon into action. A step you can avoid by simply chambering a round and then holstering the weapon. And the fewer steps you have, the more you adhere to the KISS principle.

This you can easily demonstrate to yourself by simply going to the range with a timer and seeing how fast you can draw and shoot a) chamber already loaded, b) chamber empty and two handed loading, and c) chamber empty and one handed loading (but be careful you don’t blow a hole in your foot,) and the 'ninja' load.. well guys all of you who can do that raise your hands?

Yes, you can chamber one handed, but it’s very difficult and fumble prone. And short stroking is a definite possibility. So is a AD/ND when done as fast as you can for the simple reason there is a good chance it will be pointed at some part of your anatomy.

Oh, and an interesting sidelight. According to John Franam, a very well known firearms instructor, GIs routinely ignore the chamber empty rule in Iraq and Afghanistan, and carry their handguns fully loaded. Yes, against rules, but then, they do want to come back alive.

Like posted earlier, there are a few cases where chamber empty has a place, such as an older non-drop safe weapon, but for the vast majority, chamber loaded is a much better method.
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 07:19 PM   #44
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 2,030
Quote:
Personally, I don't really see that the "Tueller rule" has much to do with the situation in question.
The only real application is to establish a rough guess of the time possibly available to a civilian to shoot a potential attacker coming at him with a contact weapon after he is lawfully permtted to reach for is gun.

In the vast majority of jurisdictions in this county, a civilian may not lawfully even reach for his gun until he is in imminent danger and deadly force is immediately necessary--for example, until a potential attacker is close enough to be able to strike or slash him before he can defend himself.. The Tueller drill, though by no means applicable in every situation and though not necessarily authoritative, puts the distance at which a standing attacker can do that is roughly seven yards. That's based on an assumed 1.5 second draw time.

A military policeman or a soldier in a combat zone has no such limitation. Nor does a police officer in many, if not most, jurisdictions.

One way around the constraint is to use a pocket holster. One can usually put both hands in his or her pocket without doing anything threatening and get the gun in hand to shorten the draw time. Saw that demonstrated by Mas Ayoob on PDTV, I think.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 07:27 PM   #45
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,813
Crikey, this thing is still going! Arguing against having a personal weapon fully ready instead of 'ready to get ready'.

"Excuse me Mr. Psycho With A Knife sir, but may I have a moment alone with my weapon to prepare for your deadly flurry of activity? Ah, yes, there we are. Have at you then!!"

Maybe I am being a bit harsh but this is serious buisness we are dealing with here. I do not own a crystal ball. Criminals do not give fair warning and they most often have the drop. We are reacting to a threat, THEY are the actor. Every second and split second counts. Intentionally placing oneself further behind the ball is simply foolish. Foolish in the extreem.
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 07:32 PM   #46
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans
Oh, come on, I bet you use two hands to hold the gun when you shoot.
Only about half of the time.

The other half of the time I spend shooting either strong hand or weak hand only. I also practice clearing malfs with either hand and drawing from the holster with either hand.

And I still carry with a round in the chamber.

I trust you practice one-handed drills, too, right? I mean, you DO know how to clear a Type III malf with only your off-hand, no?
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is online now  
Old December 21, 2009, 07:42 PM   #47
Huntergirl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2005
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 907
Concealed carry, chambered. Otherwise why bother....you're just kidding yerself.
Huntergirl is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 07:53 PM   #48
Stevie-Ray
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,556
Quote:
Yes I know it's the 'Israeli' method, but there are serious reasons not to:
2. Chamber empty requires two hands, especially if you have to do it fast. Failure to have that second hand free gives you a rather poor club for a gun.
Aah, but keep in mind that Israel Military Industries gave us the Desert Eagle. That gun makes one hell of a club.
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 08:01 PM   #49
Rayndeon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2008
Posts: 128
They also gave us the Jericho 941/Baby Eagle. Now, that makes for one hell of a GUN!
Rayndeon is offline  
Old December 21, 2009, 08:05 PM   #50
SigP6Carry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 27, 2009
Posts: 1,086
I can't agree more with the idea that empty chamber carrying is a bad idea. When I first go into real guns (not Airsoft and Paintball) I couldn't believe how hard it was to rack the slide on a gun. In the shops on my first go with my FOID, I wasn't even able to open the slide to check the chamber! I was used to Airsoft, paintball, revolvers, bolt rifles and shotguns (from boyscouts and sporting). I doubt that under stress I'd be able to load a round into the chamber. The gun that I keep in my home for SD is not loaded (for fear of an ND) but, when IL allowed CC, I will carry one in the pipe. I recently had an incident where I had to load the gun to check my apartment (GF walked in the front door, but didn't reply, I then thought that someone had just walked into the apartment, so I went to load the gun and check, she was upset about work and just walked in and layed down on the couch without replying.) on the first rack of the slide, since I was worried, it didn't return to battery, so I had to rerack the slide and leave a live round on the floor while I checked the apartment.

Not something that I want to do in a gunfight in the street. The rest of the story's pretty awkward/scary/stupid/funny. But, that's for another time.
__________________
-liberal gun nut = exception to the rule-
-1.24274238 miles, because Russians don't need scopes-
-Gun control was the Klan's favorite law, how can you advocate a set of laws designed to allow the denigration of a people?-
SigP6Carry is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.16193 seconds with 7 queries