The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 19, 2009, 12:03 AM   #1
Gbro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,056
270win KaBOOM




This is what is left of a .270 Parker Hale after a 30-'06 cartridge was fired in it.
__________________
Gbro
CGVS
For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18
Gbro is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 12:05 AM   #2
Gbro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,056
The story

The story behind it;
Tony returned home from an afternoon deer hunt and when he climbed
out of his pickup he heard something hit the ground. He found a loaded
cartridge and couldn't read the head stamp because it was to dark. Thinking it must one of his .270 Win cartridges he pocketed it and figured he would look closer the next day.
Tony and his 13 year old son were driving through the old mining property
the next day when Tony spotted a nice buck. He told his son to quietly get out of the pickup and try to get a shot at it. Now this isn't on any kind of improved road, so there was nothing wrong with what he was asking his son to do.
Well the boy couldn't see the deer, and Tony said it was starting to move.
At this point Tony removed his rifle from the case and grabbed a cartridge from his pocket and chambered it. The blast flash burned his eyes and both ear drums were ruptured. powder burns and shrapnel covered his face. The young boy didn't know if his Dad was going to live or not and had to drive him to town.
Tony made a very good recovery, and I ask him if he still flinches today. He says he dose at times.
His son took Tony's brothers to the site and after recovering the larger pieces of the rifle looked for the buck. They found blood, but were not able to recover the animal.
Tony donated this rifle to our firearms safety group about 10 years ago.
He also thought that the cartridge he loaded into the rifle must have been one of his sons .280 Rem's, but the brass is most definitely marked 30-'06.
He has no explanation for where that cartridge came from.

I intentionally left the pictures large for closer viewing.
__________________
Gbro
CGVS
For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18
Gbro is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 07:10 AM   #3
rogn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2005
Posts: 183
I donot beleive anyone is strong enough to force a 30/06 loaded cartridge into a 270W chamber using only the bolt----There is more to this story--------
rogn is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 09:44 AM   #4
Gbro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,056
Quote:
I do not believe anyone is strong enough to force a 30/06 loaded cartridge into a 270W chamber using only the bolt----There is more to this story--------
I have heard that same statement before. I have also been told that the Parker Hale has a longer than usual lead(freebore).
I have the rifle(what is left of it) and the brass is still in the chamber, and it is clearly head stamped 30-06.
I will not speculate on how hard the bolt was to close, if there was any resistance or anything as the shooter has no memory of that.
__________________
Gbro
CGVS
For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18
Gbro is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 10:44 AM   #5
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: 1B ID
Posts: 6,660
I tried replying last night, but the site went down. (Hopefully, I don't end up with 67 duplicate posts...) Rogn has covered part of my post, but here it is, anyway.


It takes an overly inappropriate amount of force to chamber an '06 cartridge in a .270.

Or....

I rifle capable of firing out of battery. (My grandfather has a wonderful example of how NOT to turn down a bolt handle. The shooter found out the hard way, when he fired it with the bolt lugs only partially engaged. -The lugs were still on the bevels; not even to the flats yet.- The barrel, receiver, bolt, and stock were all turned into scrap.) I'll try to get a good picture, next time I'm up there.


Thanks for posting.
__________________
"Such is the strange way that man works -- first he virtually destroys a species and then does everything in his power to restore it."
FrankenMauser is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 11:02 AM   #6
langenc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2007
Location: Montmorency Co, MI
Posts: 1,187
Rifles are precision instruments--Do NOT force em.

If the bolt wont close regularly(easily) there is a problm. Dont beat on the bolt handle to close it.

I dont vahe a 270, but there is no way a 30-06(I do have) will chamber in a 270. I have accidentially made a 30-06 case out of a 270, and can be done the other way, but it wont chamber.
langenc is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 11:40 AM   #7
5R milspec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 359
now I am just guessing at this.but could the 13 year old boy have loaded this one bullet.that is if Tony loaded his own.would think its posible.at 13 years of age we can be very curious.may have been double charged or the wrong powder.heck let me stop.the point is we all need to keep a sharp eye on what we are doing.so that things like this want happen.just glade to know that Tony is alive and doing OK.hate that it happened.
5R milspec is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 11:59 AM   #8
SL1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 8, 2007
Posts: 1,997
Since a .30-'06 case could have been necked down to take a .270 bullet, the head stamp on the case in the rifle chamber really doesn't help explain this very much. Tony "didn't know where the round came from" so he really doesn't know what caliber it was or what charge it had in it. He heard something fall, looked down and picked the cartridge up of the ground. It isn't even clear that it was the cartridge that he heard falling, so maybe it was somebody else's load?

The post also is written sort of ambiguously, because it says that Tony chambered a round and that the gun exloded, but it does NOT say that Tony pulled the trigger. I am assuming that he did, since his son looking for the deer and finding blood seems to imply that Tony was at least pointing the gun at the deer when the explosion occurred.

It looks really odd to me that the barrel AND case seem to be intact, but the receiver was destroyed where it wraps around those two things. I understand that gases exiting the back of the chamber could do the damage we see to the receiver and bolt, but I don't undestand why there was so much gas coming out of the barrel if the bolt was actually closed properly and the case is intact.

Can somebody explain that for me?

SL1
SL1 is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 12:04 PM   #9
Gbro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,056
Quote:
could the 13 year old boy have loaded this one bullet
No, the youth had his own rifle. That was a .280(7mm RE).
Like I posted, the owner has no clue as to where the '06 cartridge came from.
When he donated the rifle he told me that he must have chambered a .280, but again the case in it "is" a 30-'06Springfield. and the rifle "IS" stamped .270win.
In hast, slamming a bolt closed, it may be possible to push the lead in. Possible??
__________________
Gbro
CGVS
For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18
Gbro is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 12:46 PM   #10
mapsjanhere
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 2,344
Reloaded 30-06 case with 270 bullet with double charge or wrong powder seems more likely, especially if he actually hit the deer.
__________________
F 135 - the right choice
mapsjanhere is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 12:47 PM   #11
rogn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2005
Posts: 183
How much force does it take to size a 30/06 down to 270 with a good loading press?---? Seems more likely the headstamped case was of external 270 anatomical configuration but the internals may have been inappropriate.
rogn is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 01:20 PM   #12
snuffy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2001
Location: Oshkosh wi.
Posts: 2,758
A short story,,--well maybe a short book related to this thread;

.308 in a .280.



My nephew chambered and fired a .308 shell in his rem-7400 .280. The rifle took the round with no ill effects to the rifle. The shell was stuck pretty firmly in the chamber, but a solid cleaning rod removed it. I pulled the rifle down to inspect every aspect of it including removing the barrel and detailed inspection of the bolt, chamber, and receiver. Reassembled, it functioned normally, with normal accuracy.

The .308 will chamber just fine in a .280 chamber, the bullet jams into the neck area of the .280 chamber. The pressure must have been real high, it speaks volumes to the strength of the 7400 action. His wife had a m-100 Winchester at that time, one of her shells ended up in his rifle. He's not the brightest penny in the pocket, so he didn't notice the obvious difference in the shells.

I mention that story because it's very possible to chamber and fire that combo. The 30-06 in a .270 is not possible!

The 30-06 and the .270 are nearly identical in length. To get a 30 cal. bullet and neck into a 27 cal. chamber would require enormous pressure, more than could possibly be exerted by a hand on a bolt. Even when pumped up by buck fever!
__________________
The more people I meet, the more I love my dog

They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?
snuffy is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 01:56 PM   #13
alloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
Quote:
.270 Win cartridges he pocketed it and figured he would look closer the next day
Quote:
He also thought that the cartridge he loaded into the rifle must have been one of his sons .280 Rem's, but the brass is most definitely marked 30-'06
There might be some .280 and obviously something in a 30-06 case in the pocket with what might have been a .270 but not sure. I don't wanna be a buzzkill but that's a crazy pocketful of bullets since I guess they were for his, and also his son's rifle and a few pickups. Nothing good could come from that. Note to self....
__________________
Quote:
The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
Angelo Codevilla
alloy is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 01:59 PM   #14
rogn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2005
Posts: 183
hypothesis

A reformed 30/06 to 8mm X 57 could chamber and provide the undesireable effcts we have seen in this post.
rogn is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 03:32 PM   #15
Gbro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,056
Quote:
The post also is written sort of ambiguously
Absolutely, as this happened about 15 years ago. I was promised the rifle but it was kept in a trunk that was also the base to a large aquarium, so it was 5 years after the incident that I took possession of the rifle. I had heard the story about it being the result of a .280 Rem in the .270 Win, and upon inspection found the case to be an '06. Tony couldn't understand where that '06 could have come from as the family didn't own one, so yes this is very open to speculation.
I had suspicions myself, but after putting the rifle on display at the local rifle range during sight in days, the oldtimers took quite an interest in it and one of them gave me the theory of the oversize free bore with Parker-Hale rifles as a possible explanation.

I never intended to alter anything with this rifle, but I am now planning on removing the case and doing some measurements.I will do that with a qualified gunsmith friend of mine.
__________________
Gbro
CGVS
For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18
Gbro is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 04:02 PM   #16
wncchester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2002
Posts: 2,832
"I donot beleive anyone is strong enough to force a 30/06 loaded cartridge into a 270W chamber using only the bolt----"

Ditto.

And the question isn't the throat, its the neck diameter of the chamber.

Comparing chambering a .308 in .270/.280.30-06 isn't even close to the same thing, the .308 is shrort enough to permit that, the 30-06 is simply too fat to fit into a .270. Like a horse making love to a rabbit, that just can't be done and survive even before it goes off.

MUCH more likely the cartridge was from an easily reformed -06 case loaded with a very fast powder. Bullseye would do that!
wncchester is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 04:20 PM   #17
5R milspec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 359
Hummmmm

I think this is going some where.and I like the idea of takeing the case out of the barrel.I think this needs to be done for one main reason.most rifel makers are now chambering with what I call to much free bore.and if this is the case from what you find out.I think this should be something all rifel makers should look into.I can see some one doing this if there is to much free bore.but if it was the other way around it might not have been such a bad day.but we still need to keep in mind that we all can make this type of a mistake.I think we all need to take this at heart.even haveing two kinds of powders out can easily make a bad day.just read where a gent put a good bit of one powder into another type of powder.so reloading or even finding a bullet at your favorite hunt'n spot can end up becomeing a bad thing.its just that we need to take the time and really pay close attention to what ever it is we are doing.Dad always said no matter what you are doing just do it as safe as you can.we only have one life to live.and Tony was granted a second chance at life.just hope that we can learn from Tony's bad experience.so that things like this want happen again.just hate something like this did happen.we all think we are the best at what we do.but we neaver think that we can be dumb at times.face it we are human and we will be dumb at some point in our lives.
5R milspec is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 05:17 PM   #18
snuffy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2001
Location: Oshkosh wi.
Posts: 2,758
Quote:
And the question isn't the throat, its the neck diameter of the chamber.
Yes, but-- the outside diameter of a fired .270 case neck I have is .310. That means the .308 bullet would enter the neck area of the .270 chamber. Also BUT-- it would then stop when the larger neck of the '06 case tried to enter the neck area of the chamber, stopping well before the bolt could close on the '06 case.

Quote:
I think this is going some where. And I like the idea of taking the case out of the barrel. I think this needs to be done for one main reason.Most rifle makers are now chambering with what I call too much free bore. And if this is the case from what you find out. I think this should be something all rifle makers should look into. I can see some one doing this if there is too much free bore.
As said above, the freebore has nothing to do with this, since a 30-06 will not chamber in a .270, neither will a 8mm mauser. Best bet would be a .280 in a .270. There's .005 difference in the outside diameter of the .280 neck compared to the .270, a tight fit but doable. However, I don't think the minor difference of,(.284 to .277), would blow a strong bolt gun like that one did.
__________________
The more people I meet, the more I love my dog

They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?
snuffy is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 05:20 PM   #19
Powderman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2001
Location: Washington State
Posts: 2,157
Here's a guess...

We know that the .30-06 (.308) and the .270 use different bullets. If you attempted to chamber one in this manner--a hard shove on the bolt COULD force the bullet back into the case. The neck could then swage down enough to close the bolt.

Pull the trigger, and you have a bomb.

Just a guess...
__________________
Hiding in plain sight...
Powderman is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 07:25 PM   #20
5R milspec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 359
learning from ones mistake

there are many things that could have been the reason for this to have happened.and I hope he is able to find out when he takes the case out.the most likely is that the 30/06 case was resized to a different cal.but the main reason for this post is for us the readers to learn a lesson.and to be as careful as we can be.he was just giveing another gent some good advice.me or some other reloader might not care if we transform a case size to another one.or even a good seasoned reloader.he just wanted to make a point to what might happen if one was to do this and make the same mistake.and it keeps referring to safety.but hey JMHO
5R milspec is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 08:12 PM   #21
Gbro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,056
I WAS WRONG!

5R milspec,
Thanks for the kind words.
However I was wrong in my determination, and my incorrect determination grew stronger roots over time.

My friend has been under the weather for the past week, and with the desire to pull the case from this rifle in my head, well its pulled. (Remember I was of the mind not to alter what was there).
Well the answer was evident from what was visible, but the original story about the .280 Rem polluted my head to where I was not looking at this with an open mind, I didn't let the evidence take me to the answer (Hey you have to hear me out on this as I am beating myself up about it)!
When I got the correct answer, I also had a few shudders run down my back because I could have, well my daughter at 12 years old was so very close to having this very same accident!
How many times have we had more than one gun and ammunition out on the firing line at one time??
Here are the pic's
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Photo149.jpg (59.0 KB, 190 views)
File Type: jpg Photo153.jpg (37.0 KB, 174 views)
File Type: jpg Photo150.jpg (59.9 KB, 169 views)
__________________
Gbro
CGVS
For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18
Gbro is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 08:25 PM   #22
Gbro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,056
Ya it was a 30-30 Win cartridge that destroyed this rifle.
I remember my 12 year old daughter shooting my .257 Rob. and I was shooting my .270. She was told to take out of the blue cartridge box when shooting that rifle.
She told me that the rifle was jammed at one point and I found that she had taken a 30-30 cartridge out of the red ammo box where I also had my .270 cartridges
She could have easily been shooting the .270 as I also had some cast plinking loads that shot like $hi#, but the girls liked to shoot them.
I thank the Lord that we didn't have an accident that day or any other.

As soon as I realized that it is a 30-30, and remembered that I stated that it was clearly marked 30-06, well that clearly was a result of expecting to see a .280 head stamp, and with the damage to the head 30 is very clear, but that is all and I probably thought I saw more of what I jumped to the conclusion with when looking at the damaged area of the head.
I then primed a dummy 30-30 cartridge from my firearms safety kit and chambered it into my Ruger .270 and pulled the trigger. It did not fire, but it did make a small mark on the primer.
This really stinks to make an incorrect assumption!
__________________
Gbro
CGVS
For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18
Gbro is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 09:00 PM   #23
5R milspec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 359
Gbro hate to hear about your friend.hope that things will get better.but glade to see what the real answer was.and very glade to hear that your litte girl didn't do the same thing.as I kept reading and replying I began to really understand the real reason of the post.and I am sorry for not seeing this in the begining.It's just that I knew and do resize brass to different cal's.and I haven't had a BOOBOO yet.Its starting to make me wounder if I really need to do this.and the only reason for me to do it is that I can save money to buy powder or any other type of reloading component.so I am going to pray about it and let God help me make a very serious chice to do this or not.heck I have already made up my mind.I will not do this again.life is to short to take a chance of hurting me or someone else.thanks again Gbro for the post.just hope that it will open up all of our eyes.
5R milspec is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 02:38 AM   #24
Pathfinder45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2008
Posts: 909
Finally it all makes sense.

If you have two different calibers of ammo and load your rifle in haste without looking; something bad could happen. Hopefully all of us can learn something vicariously from this mistake and not suffer the same consequences. Thanks for posting this, Gbro, and glad you pursued it to a clear conclusion.
Pathfinder45 is offline  
Old December 20, 2009, 08:46 AM   #25
saudst
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 148
Good find

Hello people,

It seems I'm a few posts late and glad you found out the culprit. Just some thoughts after reading the investigateing process hear. Several posters are corect, that a 30/06 cartrage will not chamber in a 270 rifle. However, a refference in Cartrages of the world says a 280 will not either. When Remington designed the 280, they moved the shoulder forward .050" to keep a 280 from chambering in a 270 rifle. A moot point now, but food for thought.

Tim.
__________________
Tim. "Fear of death will not prevent dieing, but it may prevent living".
saudst is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13404 seconds with 8 queries