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Old December 18, 2009, 08:15 PM   #26
smince
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Quote:
No, it has to be drawn in a certain way hard to explain. He showed me that I couldnt draw it facing him or reaching around him it just wouldnt clear the hard plastic holster.
I'll bet anyone who knows the 'secret' can get it out.
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Old December 18, 2009, 08:38 PM   #27
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Now, if you have to sweep yourself or another "innocent" on the draw that's different but when the gun is holstered, who cares?
Probably all persons on the firing line to your left when you holster (or draw) a X- draw or shoulder holster. Of course, once holstered, everyone is safe----- until you draw or reholster again.

That's why shoulder holsters or X- draws go to the end of the firing line--- if they're allowed in the course in the first place.

Yes, I know, with the X-draw, it's possible to turn one's body to the side so the muzzle doesn't point at another shooter during the draw, but the shoulder holster could be rather problematic.

Also, Farnum banned the Serpa from his courses when it was learned that a small twig, or sand, could (actually did) jam the release and make drawing the weapon nearly impossible.

Last edited by Nnobby45; December 18, 2009 at 08:49 PM.
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Old December 18, 2009, 10:25 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smince
Suarez International doesn't allow Serpa's in class. I've read Tactical Response and Paul Gomez doesn't either.
Not sure about Paul (wouldn't surprise me if he didn't), but I know Tactical Response doesn't allow them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nnobby45
Also, Farnum banned the Serpa from his courses when it was learned that a small twig, or sand, could (actually did) jam the release and make drawing the weapon nearly impossible.
Shoot, I've seen a brand new one malfunction in that manner. I was in a gun store and picked one up to look at it (I knew about their "history" but hadn't actually handled one before). The guy behind the counter asked me if I wanted to see how it worked (sure, why not). He handed me one of the glocks from the display case. When I pushed the button to release the lock, I heard a "snap" and the gun wouldn't come out...something had broken on the inside causing it to lock the gun into the holster.
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Old December 19, 2009, 06:05 AM   #29
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I've seen our local Game Wardens/Forest Service carrying Serpa's. I tried to explain to them about the problems with the holsters, but was only met with blank, deer-in-the-headlights stares.
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Old December 19, 2009, 08:28 AM   #30
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Heres one for the kydex paddle holster lovers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDeKt...B192A&index=24
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Old December 19, 2009, 09:12 AM   #31
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I do not like SERPA holsters. I would not carry a SERPA holster. I do not recommend carrying a SERPA holster.

All that being said...
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenpoTex
Shoot, I've seen a brand new one malfunction in that manner. I was in a gun store and picked one up to look at it (I knew about their "history" but hadn't actually handled one before). The guy behind the counter asked me if I wanted to see how it worked (sure, why not). He handed me one of the glocks from the display case. When I pushed the button to release the lock, I heard a "snap" and the gun wouldn't come out...something had broken on the inside causing it to lock the gun into the holster.
Your story has some elements that don't ring true. Anybody who's actually handled a SERPA holster knows that it's not a "button" but a pivoting lever and there's nothing on the "inside" to "break"; it's just a piece of plastic that rocks back and forth, with one end protruding inside to occlude the trigger guard.

You'd have been perfectly fine saying "Hey, I don't dig them because Suarez and Gomez and Yeager say they are teh suXX0rz," without further elaboration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ActivShootr
Heres one for the kydex paddle holster lovers.
What does Fobus have to do with Kydex paddle holsters? A couple of fat guys on the internet broke a Fobus holster (which is not a Kydex holster) and then they tell me I shouldn't use a Kydex holster. You'll pardon me for not taking my handgun advice from random fat guys on YouTube.
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Old December 19, 2009, 09:26 AM   #32
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This came from a posting by Paul Gomez on Gabe Suarez' site:
Quote:
In October 2005, while assisting with a class in Casa Grande, AZ, additional concerns surfaced. During a force-on-force evolution, when a student attempted to draw an NLTA-modified Glock 17 from his Blackhawk Serpa holster, he was unable to free the gun from the holster.

In fact, the gun was so tightly held in the holster that, with one person applying both hands to the release button and another person applying two hands to the pistol, the gun could not be freed. Upon inspection, a small piece of gravel, approximately the size of the head of a pin, had managed to work itself into the Serpa release button and wedge the lock in place.

While trying to effect a release of the pistol from the holster, the entire holster popped off of the belt. The three screws that attach the holster body to the belt plate simply slipped through the tracks in the belt plate without apparent damage. Of what use is a retention holster that does not keep the gun on the belt?

In my opinion, the Blackhawk Serpa Active Retention holster is a severely flawed design. It offers the theoretical advantage of security while, in reality, offering none. It does not hold up to the rigors of realistic training. It accentuates the possibility of an unintentional discharge. It is unsafe.
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Old December 19, 2009, 09:31 AM   #33
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While the trigger finger being in exactly the wrong place on the draw is its biggest shortcoming, I don't like the fact that the area behind the release lever is open and can allow debris in there to obstruct easy movement of the lever.
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Old December 19, 2009, 09:38 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara
Your story has some elements that don't ring true. Anybody who's actually handled a SERPA holster knows that it's not a "button" but a pivoting lever and there's nothing on the "inside" to "break"; it's just a piece of plastic that rocks back and forth, with one end protruding inside to occlude the trigger guard.

You'd have been perfectly fine saying "Hey, I don't dig them because Suarez and Gomez and Yeager say they are teh suXX0rz," without further elaboration.
Button, lever, "surface where you apply pressure to (theoretically) get the gun out," whatever...I know that whatever the case was, the gun wasn't coming out of the holster.
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Old December 19, 2009, 09:56 AM   #35
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A good holster is whatever gets the job done. A bad holster slows presentation, since the object of the entire excercise is survival.
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Old December 19, 2009, 11:52 AM   #36
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Pax, you kicked this off; going to weigh in?
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Old December 19, 2009, 01:46 PM   #37
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Legionnaire,

I'm shamelessly using everyone else's brains to check my own thinking on this one. If I weighed in, I'd contaminate the comparison sample...

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Old December 19, 2009, 03:13 PM   #38
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Understood, but I hope when the signal-to-noise ratio drops sufficiently, you'll provide your own opinion and/or summary comments.
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Old December 19, 2009, 03:39 PM   #39
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When I was a kid we worked for a guy that did trail rides for city folks. Sometimes he would even let them bring their firearms along for the rides. One guy was riding and somehow his gun went off (Hit the horse and threw the rider.) accidentally while it was still in the holster. I do not remember the rig he was wearing or the gun he was carrying other than it was an old revolver. Apparently, when he went through the brush, he caught the hammer on some brush and cocked it, then while going through another bunch of saplings and brush, some how managed to have the trigger pulled. (He swore up and down that he neither carried the weapon cocked, nor did he touch the trigger.) If what he said was true, then he had a very unsafe holster.

1. A holster should be fitted to the gun it carries.
2. It should be fitted to the person carrying it.
3. It should be fit for the job you are doing. (When I am tossing hay bales, I want a holster with a flap, that will keep debris out of the holster and gun.)
4. It should fit the clothes you are wearing. Do not try to modify the holster you use for your belt when you are wearing sweat pants. Just use the dang belt or get another holster.

My .45 LC revolver holsters (Cowboy type) all have a hammer string on them to keep the gun in place. Can I quick draw with the string in place? No, but by golly when I am crawling through fences and brush looking for escaped goats and cows, I do not have to worry about it falling out.

When I am at the range, I use a simple slide in holster. It will be used only for storing and carrying the gun between shoots.

I do not CCW, so I am unqualified to respond on that aspect of it.
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Old December 19, 2009, 05:16 PM   #40
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Apparently, when he went through the brush, he caught the hammer on some brush and cocked it, then while going through another bunch of saplings and brush, some how managed to have the trigger pulled. (He swore up and down that he neither carried the weapon cocked, nor did he touch the trigger.) If what he said was true, then he had a very unsafe holster.
It would seem more likely that it was a single event, IMO. A branch/vine/twig snagged the hammer and drew it back far enough to ignite the primer on dropping but not far enough to stay cocked. A very unsafe holster, either way.
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Old December 19, 2009, 05:24 PM   #41
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+1 on Uncle Buck.

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Old December 19, 2009, 05:52 PM   #42
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Quote:
You'll pardon me for not taking my handgun advice from random fat guys on YouTube.
What makes them any different from the fat guys on here?


Edited to be nice
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Old December 19, 2009, 06:02 PM   #43
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I used to buy the hype, but not so much anymore... but I used to hear that a small-of-the-back holster could paralyze you if you landed on it. If that were true, I'd consider that dangerous.
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Old December 19, 2009, 06:09 PM   #44
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Since I carry an SA myself I've considered the whole "hammer hang-up" issue. I've been carrying high-ride crossdraw in part for that reason.

I also find that crossdraw points the gun at less of my body. If it does go off in the holster or during a re-holstering accident, it's not going to take out my kneecap or foot. It might give me a glancing hit across some hip skin at worst.

Best of all, that same "rest my forearm on the gun" trick used to block grabs can also be used in heavy brush to protect the hammer and trigger.
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Old December 19, 2009, 06:32 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ActivShootr
What makes them any different from the fat guys on here?
Nothing.

Any advice snagged off the internet or at the gun store or at gun skul should be filtered through your own experience. Caveat emptor, baby.
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Old December 19, 2009, 08:00 PM   #46
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I carried concealed with a Thunderwear/Smartcarry holster quite a bit with a Walther PPK, butt end of handle printed even with that little gun, wore elastic waistband pants with no belt for a faster draw, had to tuck in my shirttail over the back of the elastic strap going behind my back otherwise it would ride up and show, did not like where the gun was pointing while being carried and was very careful about reholstering, one reason for the PPK with its 10-12 pound double action first pull of the trigger.

I have front pocket carried concealed with or without a holster with a Kahr PM40 or a Smith 638 bodyguard, I recommend a pocket holster but either way make sure absolutely nothing is in the pocket with the gun that could engage the trigger, like car keys, knives etc.

I have carried concealed in a fanny pack, and seen women carrying in purses, you should buy a special fanny pack or purse for this but whether you do or not, as in front pocket carry, absolutely nothing in the compartment that carries the gun, as it could engage the trigger and fire the gun.

Have carried with shoulder holsters, vertical and horizontal, I don't like it as the pistol almost always sweeps part of your arm on the draw.

I would recommend OWB, outside the waistband or IWB inside the waistband on the belt strongside with the pistol pointing down at the ground. However this is probably where most people carry and if I was going to try to take a gun from someone that is the first place I would look for a concealed handgun.

I have never tried the shirt tucker holsters, but I have heard of guys pulling out the shirt and fumbling or dropping their handgun.

For open carry I definitely prefer a retention system, for concealed carry I absolutely hate a retention system.

One rule I always break is on reholstering, I am never going to reholster until I know for sure the threat is over and then I am going to look while reholstering to make sure no clothing or retention thumb strap or anything is going to engage the trigger while reholstering.

I have seen very few dangerous holsters, wish I could say the same for people!
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Old December 19, 2009, 09:55 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PH/CIB
For open carry I definitely prefer a retention system, for concealed carry I absolutely hate a retention system.
This.

Further, I just don't dig any kind of holster that makes me violate Rule Two to get the gun back into the holster. If I can't re-holster one-handed without pointing the gun at my weak hand, I don't want to use that carry system.
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Old December 20, 2009, 12:10 PM   #48
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Plenty of holsters capable of retention involve no action on the part of the support hand to accomplish reholstering. Come to think of it, I can't think of one that does require it. Granted, I've see people do it, which I've always took as an indicator of either unfamiliarity or as sign that their holster is in dire need of replacement. The other indicator being fishing around to clear retention straps; I've seen instances were an unintentional discharge at that point would have had disastrous consequences.
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Last edited by Erik; December 20, 2009 at 12:31 PM.
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Old December 20, 2009, 10:31 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik
Plenty of holsters capable of retention involve no action on the part of the support hand to accomplish reholstering.
Yes.

I'm sorry I didn't make it clearer. I thought my paragraph break between "This." and "Further,..." would make it clear that those were two separate trains of thought. Sorry.
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Old December 22, 2009, 11:08 PM   #50
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a dangerous holster is any you cannot operate quickly ans smoothly,such as those with mutiple retention devices. practice with a new holster until fully familarand you'll be better off for it!

Like my daddy used to say, you need to be smarter than the equipment you operate!!
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