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Old January 9, 2010, 07:43 PM   #51
Tennessee Gentleman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smince
Sure I heard that. Question: What do you do when the bad guys come down to Ding Dong?
What is the liklihood that they will come to Ding Dong? However, you have posed the 64 million dollar question that all must ask when planning for contingencies: "Do I plan for the most likely or the most catastrophic?" Bane says you plan for what is likely. What is likely depends on where you are, or are going to be says he.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smince
Did you read the part where I said you wouldn't be able to tell I was armed with my Glock?
Yes! And that was my point that you already had the deck fairly well-stacked no matter which gun you carried.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smince
ASSUMING everything will be a 1 on 1 affair and ASSUMING that 1 or 2 rounds will solve all your problems is just frankly ludicrous.
Aren't you making assumptions too with your choice of firearm?

I am curious what type of limits of the violence spectrum you are arming yourself against? Three, four, five guys? Is that based on where you live or where you travel?

These were the data points Michael used.
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Old January 10, 2010, 08:31 AM   #52
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Quote:
Aren't you making assumptions too with your choice of firearm?
Actually, no. My choice allows me to handle 1 mugger or multiple assailants.
Quote:
I am curious what type of limits of the violence spectrum you are arming yourself against? Three, four, five guys? Is that based on where you live or where you travel?
That's just it: I don't know what I'm likely to encounter on any given day. Sure, odds are I could leave the house empty handed and be fine. But remember, for a 5 shot average there were 1 round shootings and 9 round shootings......if you find yourself managing a 9 round problem with a 5 shot pistol things just might get a little...tense.
Quote:
Bane says you plan for what is likely. What is likely depends on where you are, or are going to be says he.
Michael Bane has a podcast about shooting. If that makes him the 'be all-end all' in your book, fine. As he says in his bio:
Quote:
I have never been a SEAL, an "operator," a member of a special team, a stealthy ninja killer, or a secret agent--and I've never held myself out as one. I am, however, a shooter.
Would you or he mind showing me exactly how to manage a 3 on 1 assault with only 5 rounds......

A snubbie is a weapon of convenience. I wouldn't want anyone to inconvenience themselves. Hopefully your gunfight will a single inept BG with a tire iron wanting your cool watch.
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Old January 10, 2010, 09:47 AM   #53
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+10 on Win-lose comment about having your hand on your gun. I doubt that many people can overcome a person pointing a gun at them with a quick draw.
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Old January 10, 2010, 11:26 AM   #54
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Quote:
A snubbie is a weapon of convenience. I wouldn't want anyone to inconvenience themselves.
Smince, it is obvious that you haven't given this position much thought.

Putting aside the generally greater reliability and simplicity of operation of revolvers over semi's, a snubby offers:

1) greater retention from grabs.
2) greater reliability during/after retention struggle ( semi's are easily thrown out of battery)
3) greater reliability during a body on body struggle. Assuming the semi isn't thrown out of battery, the odds of a successful cycle and second shot are pretty poor.
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Old January 10, 2010, 11:58 AM   #55
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Would you or he mind showing me exactly how to manage a 3 on 1 assault with only 5 rounds......
In the imortal words of Wyatt Earp "you've got to be deliberate in a hurry"
3 BG with 5 shots. 1 round COM to each, if all three are still coming 2 head shots to the biggest two and then whip the little guys A$$ I mean come on he's got a chest wound.
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originally posted my Mike Irwin
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Old January 10, 2010, 12:10 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smince
Actually, no. My choice allows me to handle 1 mugger or multiple assailants.
Actually you are making assumptions but haven't yet said what they are. Multiple can mean two assailants to infinity. What are your parameters that you think likely to face? If you find yourself managing a 15 round problem with a 9 shot pistol things just might get a little...tense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smince
If that makes him the 'be all-end all' in your book, fine.
I didn't say he was the last word but he seems to have good logic for his position and you aren't willing to say what your logic is other than I might need 9 rounds. Why 9 and not 10 or 15? You don't seem to be able to base that on anything other than that is what you like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smince
Would you or he mind showing me exactly how to manage a 3 on 1 assault with only 5 rounds......
How likely do you see that situation? Why only 3 assailants and not five or six? However, to answer your question, does the 5 shot snubbie have more bullets than assailants in your hypotheical?

smince I think your criticism of 5 shot handguns is not based on any objective criteria so I think I will listen to others who seem to have some of that in their advice. I think if you criticize another's defensive setup you should be able to show why objectively or just say that is your opinion and you feel better with a different one.
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Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; January 10, 2010 at 12:20 PM.
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Old January 10, 2010, 04:43 PM   #57
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1 round COM to each, if all three are still coming 2 head shots to the biggest two and then whip the little guys A$$ I mean come on he's got a chest wound.
As I said earlier:
Quote:
ASSUMING that 1 or 2 rounds will solve all your problems is just frankly ludicrous.
Quote:
Why 9 and not 10 or 15?
Actually, a 12 round pistol with a 17 round spare magazine.

OK, you guys win.

Now go stick your heads back in the sand...
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Old January 10, 2010, 04:50 PM   #58
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Quote:
ASSUMING that 1 or 2 rounds will solve all your problems is just frankly ludicrous.
Why?
I can't see why assuming I will stay calm and make my hits count is any more counter productive than you assuming that you need to shoot so fast that hit's are secondary.
The fastest way to five hits is five shots bottom line.
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Quote:
originally posted my Mike Irwin
My handguns are are for one purpose only, though...
The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."

Last edited by mavracer; January 10, 2010 at 04:58 PM.
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Old January 10, 2010, 06:43 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smince
OK, you guys win. Now go stick your heads back in the sand...
Now don't get all heated up, we are asking legit questions. What are you basing your ideas on? Why the need for so many rounds? Is this based on where you live or work? Is the crime real bad there? Michael Bane plays the odds what is your criteria.
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Old January 11, 2010, 07:56 AM   #60
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Quote:
OK, you guys win.

Now go stick your heads back in the sand...
Smince,
You have been given very concrete, practical reasons demonstrating positions counter to yours, which you choose to ignore. Instead of discussing, you continue to post the above nonsense.

If you are a troll.... Bravo! If not, you will be well servered opening your mind and demonstrating respect when putting forth your positions.

If you would like to discuss, I would be happy to... if you continue to insult, I will ignore you.
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Old January 11, 2010, 09:03 AM   #61
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you will be well servered opening your mind
Right back at you guys.
Quote:
What are you basing your ideas on? Why the need for so many rounds? Is this based on where you live or work? Is the crime real bad there?
No we have very low crime in my area, and the areas I travel in. I'm just not sheltered enough to believe that it can't or won't happen to me, or I'll just hope that everything plays out in my favor.

When you can carry a Glock 26 and a spare mag in about the same area as a snubbie, it doesn't make sense to limit yourself to 5 rounds.

As I said, I'm equipped to handle a lesser situation that a pocket pistol would be fine for. The pocket pistol however may not be up to the task of handling a larger incident.

Assuming that you will even be able to get it out of your pocket, as was the topic of this thread originally.
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Old January 11, 2010, 09:55 AM   #62
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Quote:
When you can carry a Glock 26 and a spare mag in about the same area as a snubbie, it doesn't make sense to limit yourself to 5 rounds.
sure it does my day in day out activitys don't put me anywhere near harms way. I carry pocket carry my snub which IS smaller and weighs nearly half what your glock 26 does.However if I feel the need I add another gun(usually another snub) now I have the same firepower as you and can draw/shoot with either hand.
There's no law (at least here in KS) that says your gun must stay in your pocket while driving.
It also give's another advantage to me I quite frequently wear a hoodie pocket carry in the front pocket of a hoodie will come as a complete shock to Mr BG. and I guarantee you can't beat my first shot from any holster let alone one that's concealed.
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Quote:
originally posted my Mike Irwin
My handguns are are for one purpose only, though...
The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."
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Old January 11, 2010, 10:00 AM   #63
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Quote:
When you can carry a Glock 26 and a spare mag in about the same area as a snubbie, it doesn't make sense to limit yourself to 5 rounds.
Unless you value things other than just capacity.... below is a repost of what you so far have ignored.

Quote:
A snubbie is a weapon of convenience. I wouldn't want anyone to inconvenience themselves.
Smince, it is obvious that you haven't given this position much thought.

Putting aside the generally greater reliability and simplicity of operation of revolvers over semi's, a snubby offers:

1) greater retention from grabs.
2) greater reliability during/after retention struggle ( semi's are easily thrown out of battery)
3) greater reliability during a body on body struggle. Assuming the semi isn't thrown out of battery, the odds of a successful cycle and second shot are pretty poor.


I am not here to change your mind but to expand my horizons through honest debate.
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Old January 11, 2010, 10:24 AM   #64
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smince, win-lose and others on this tangent... you guys have lost focus of the original theory of the thread.

This isn't about the validity of 5-shot snubs.

This is about the validity of pocket carry when one considers drawing a primary firearm using a weak-hand draw.

Notice how the title of the thread says primary in it?

There are a LOT of snub shooters out there that keep the snub on 100% of the time, and in less than desirable situations, they strap on a second gun (G19, Commander, whatever).

They still train to go to the snub first, even if the secondary is a better gun (capacity, caliber, accuracy). Because it's the one that's there 100% of the time.

Frankly, I don't like carrying in ways that aren't indexed to one hand or the other. Appendix carry has guns pointing at *ahem* things I'd like to keep, SOB carry prints too much and is a PITA in the car. So I do strong side IWB and weak side pocket. That's me. That may change up when I find myself a PF-9 and try it out.

This thread is about ambidextrous conceal methods of primary firearms. Weighing that against carrying a BuG.
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Old January 11, 2010, 11:45 AM   #65
win-lose
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Quote:
smince, win-lose and others on this tangent... you guys have lost focus of the original theory of the thread.
AR44, thank you for trying to keep things moving in a reasonable direction... I think the current tangent is very germain to this thread as the original poster is leveraging the lower capacity of pocket guns and in particularly snubs to further his position against pocket carry. So, discussing these elements would appear to be appropriate.

With that said, I am not happy with the tone I have felt compelled to use in this thread and apologize to anyone who may have been put off or offended by it.
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Old January 11, 2010, 12:20 PM   #66
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I know the thread went on a tangent. that's why I added this in the last post:
Quote:
Assuming that you will even be able to get it out of your pocket, as was the topic of this thread originally.
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Old January 11, 2010, 03:20 PM   #67
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Concealed carry is all about compromises. Competing factors such as firepower, reliablilty, capacity, accessibility and concealability must be weighed and different situations call for different solutions. If reliability is your primary concern, you may choose a revolver over a semi. If firepower and capacity are most important, then you may go for a semi with a couple extra mags. Often I am willing to compromise firepower and accesssibilty in favor of concealability, and at those times my LCP in a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster is my choice.
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Old January 11, 2010, 04:12 PM   #68
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As pax so eloquently stated in post #11:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
Not sure how much FOF or role-play you've done...But if you haven't done a little hands on role-play before, I'd suggest that as a starting point.
...and see exactly how well your gear and techniques/tactics fair against a moving, attacking human instead of a cardboard cut-out on the square range.

That is all.
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Old January 11, 2010, 05:37 PM   #69
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Quote:
As pax so eloquently stated in post #11:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
Not sure how much FOF or role-play you've done...But if you haven't done a little hands on role-play before, I'd suggest that as a starting point.
...and see exactly how well your gear and techniques/tactics fair against a moving, attacking human instead of a cardboard cut-out on the square range.

That is all.
And after your FOF training you came away with appendix carrying a glock? Really??? So, if you get cought in a retention struggle before you complete your draw where would a discharge go? At least your adversary will have plenty of time to clear your glock's jam as you bleed-out. Perhaps you should get your money back on your training?
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Old January 13, 2010, 06:08 AM   #70
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Try a course like this:
http://www.suarezinternationalstore....ROD&ProdID=759

or this:
http://www.suarezinternationalstore....ROD&ProdID=880

And let me know how that pocket carried 5-shooter works out...
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Old January 13, 2010, 08:37 AM   #71
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Poket carry

The only thing I "Pocket Carry" is a 22lr Stinger. It's priority is right there next to my Mil-Tac folder. Pocket Carry? Tueller Drill?? JMHO
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Old January 13, 2010, 09:12 AM   #72
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Smince, I recognize ALL the limitations of pocket carry. I fully accept them... Again, it comes down to values....

I grew up in the Bronx. I've lived in Harlem, Brooklyn, Queens and a bunch of other places. For most of my 20's, I worked in many of the toughest areas NYC, alone, on a daily basis. All of which, I did unarmed (thank you NYC ). As such, situational awareness and personal influence have been my primary defenses. You can not plan on what you will do if caught off guard because truthfully, if caught off guard you have already lost.

Pocket carry affords me the greatest flexibility in handling a situation. It allows me:
1) more time to defuse the situation without compromise to readiness
2) the ability to increase readiness without escalating the situation
3) reduce legal implications without compromise to readiness

It is all about the concealment of my actions, my friend. It allows ME to maintain greater influence of the situation before I hand it over to the gun.

btw, those courses look like they'd be a lot of fun. It would be great if they were offered closer to me. I really enjoy training courses. It is like a mini vacation for me.
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Old January 13, 2010, 10:50 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smince
Try a course like this:
The links don't seem to go anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smince
And let me know how that pocket carried 5-shooter works out...
I am sure a "pocket shooter" won't do well in Kandahar either but I don't live there. You still refuse to answer the question as to what your criteria is.

You just say, I carry a big gun with lots of ammo so I am prepared. Prepared for what? Ninja assault teams? Los Zetas? MS-13? FoF training is fun and I have done some but the scenarios presented there had no relevance to the life I lead. Same with the shoot houses and clearing buildings. Lots of fun but not likely I will participate in those either.

What Michael Bane discusses and you won't for some reason is what are you likely to face in civilian self defense situation. You see it is I think important to consider those parameters otherwise the possibilities are so numerous that one would never leave the house without three pistols and a tricked out AR-15 (which I would do as I said before if I lived in Somalia).
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Old January 13, 2010, 11:17 AM   #74
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I think this thread has run its course, now that we're down to this type of reasoning:

Everyone who drives faster than I do is a maniac.

Everyone who drives slower than I do is an idiot.

Closed.

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