The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old December 18, 2009, 04:33 AM   #26
smince
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
Quote:
I've taken a bunch of courses on concealed carry and close quarter handgun techniques at a major national training facility...
In these courses, did you pocket carry a small gun? Or did you use a service size gun in a belt or IWB holster?
Quote:
The way I interpreted the original post was that smince was commenting on the way in which his training had exposed a flaw in his carry methods and motivated him to change them. He then asked those that do use pocket carry as a primary method how they address an important issue with this method.
pax nailed it when she asked about FOF/scenario work. If you haven't tried a technique in FOF drills, then you really don't know if it works on the street or not. Standing on the range, shooting tight groups from your Weaver stance is a great ego booster, but it is only so much ballistic narcissism. Ground fighting with an airsoft isn't nearly as satisfying, even if it is teaching what you may realistically face.

I've found that most people get really upset when you attempt to slaughter their sacred cows.
Quote:
However, just because it might be the only way to carry a gun in some situations doesn't mean it's necessarily a good way to carry in others.
Quote:
I can get to it but not very speedy.
Quote:
I used to believe the same thing until I bought a shot timer.
At least a few here are honest about it.
smince is offline  
Old December 18, 2009, 04:40 AM   #27
smince
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
In the interest of disclosure, I did ask this question on other forums. Here is one of the answers I got elsewhere:
Quote:
There is a reason I abandoned pocket carry for primary.

I used to carry Glock 27 in front pocket of cargo shorts (not the cargo pocket). I was pretty happy with it. But once I started investigating how difficult it would be to get the gun out of my pocket in a struggle, I saw how big a losing proposition that would be. Trying to fish your gun out of your pocket mid fight might be less than ideal.....

On the other hand, I do use the pocket to carry the BUG or "auxilliary gun". But I do not have any illusions about getting it out in a brawl. I know that if I go for the pocket pistol mid fight, I had better have the other guy all but unconscous because it will take one of my hands out of the fight for longer than I feel comfortable with...So it is a good news bad news kind of thing. I pretty much dumped the G26/27/33 for the full size guns when I made the decision to roll with the IWB holster and dress around it. So now that is the primary and the J frame is the pocket carried auxilliary gun.
And this did come from a 'big name instructor'.
smince is offline  
Old December 18, 2009, 04:47 AM   #28
troy_mclure
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2008
Location: gulf of mexico
Posts: 2,716
i carry a kel tec p32 in my right butt pocket, i now have my wallet in the left.

while i can draw with my left hand, its a pita, and requires some obvious movement.

all the training in the army of carrying stuff in the left hand/side(in case you need to salute) pays off now, as its such a habit i usually dont even think about it.

its not too big of a deal for me, tho i have thought about it.
__________________
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
troy_mclure is offline  
Old December 18, 2009, 09:29 AM   #29
win-lose
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 3, 2009
Posts: 451
Quote:
I used to believe the same thing until I bought a shot timer. I've since discovered that unless your setup allows you to shoot from inside the pocket, any advantage appears to be negligible at best. I've also discovered that if you don't have your hand in your pocket when you get the "Go" signal, pocket carry can be obscenely slow compared to IWB.
ATW525,
Thanks for sharing that.... How do you think timings differ across different seasons? For example, in the summer, I'm sure your observations are probably very reflective. What about in the fall with a few layers? Now how about the winter with multiple layers?

I posted the below a few days ago....

Quote:
This was not one of those "sitting around then poof... It dawned on me" type of epiphanies. My wife and I had a situation that brought home the error of my way.

We live in a very nice neighborhood, but pretty close to some not so nice neighborhoods.

A couple of weeks ago, my wife and I were walking the dogs, around 10pm. I'm carrying my 629 iwb and as usual feeling comforted by it's presence. It is really cold out and I'm bundled up pretty well. A car turns onto the block, rap music blaring, low riding with 1 inch tires and window's tinted well beyond legal limits. The car stops directly across the street from us and sits. My mind immediately plays out my moves if the situation escalates. I felt my coat and had the sickening realization, there is no way I'm getting to my gun in any reasonable amount of time. The coat is too long, too heavy and I'm wearing too many layers to move out of the way. A few more seconds go by and the car drives off.

Since that moment, I'm back to carrying my SP101 in my pocket. It is very clear to me that accessibility trumps both power and capacity in personal defense situations.

I know that I can change my attire, but I live in the northeast and it gets pretty darn cold here.
win-lose is offline  
Old December 18, 2009, 09:37 AM   #30
win-lose
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 3, 2009
Posts: 451
Quote:
I've found that most people get really upset when you attempt to slaughter their sacred cows.
It is comments like this that reduce us all...
win-lose is offline  
Old December 18, 2009, 09:45 AM   #31
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,566
For many of the above stated reasons, . . . I don't pocket carry except in some extreme circumstances.

A quality IWB makes the most sense (though I personally prefer a shoulder holster) for speed, . . . accessability, . . . and accessability with either hand.

Even if it is a "tuckable" and worn correctly, . . . strong hand drawing is certainly no slower than a pocket carrier starting with his hands ourside his pocket.

An IWB worn at 4:30 for righties, . . . and 7:30 for lefties will allow either hand to access the weapon, . . . though the off hand does take some practice.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old December 18, 2009, 01:21 PM   #32
Mtn Biker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2009
Posts: 122
Quote:
I've found that most people get really upset when you attempt to slaughter their sacred cows.
Why can't all our sacred cows just get along?

VL
Mtn Biker is offline  
Old December 18, 2009, 04:40 PM   #33
ATW525
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2005
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 2,684
Quote:
ATW525,
Thanks for sharing that.... How do you think timings differ across different seasons? For example, in the summer, I'm sure your observations are probably very reflective. What about in the fall with a few layers? Now how about the winter with multiple layers?
Layers certainly can complicate things, and I've found that some are more restrictive than others. Generally speaking, I find that IWB and pocket carry in the front pants pocket are similarly effected. If the layers don't obstruct access to the pocket, they usually aren't much of a problem for IWB access either.

Now, there might be speed advantage to carrying in the pocket of the outer layer, but I generally don't like to carry like that (it complicates situations where I might need to remove that layer) so I've never tried it against the clock.
ATW525 is offline  
Old December 18, 2009, 05:00 PM   #34
azredhawk44
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 6,465
I've recently resolved to do both whenever possible.

I used to ONLY carry IWB, or ONLY carry in the pocket. IWB would be typically served by a Colt Commander, and pocket carry was done with a Smith 642.

Now I just carry both of 'em whenever I can, and I'm working on perfecting my carry technique and my off-hand draw and presentation of the snubbie.

That's the neat thing about living in America... I can.

Except New Mexico, where CCW permits (even though I have reciprocity) only allow for 1 firearm on the person. Then I fall back to the strong-side Colt.
azredhawk44 is offline  
Old December 18, 2009, 05:16 PM   #35
mavracer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: midwest
Posts: 3,065
Quote:
1. Are you able to access your weapon with your off-hand if you needed to?
Yes I carry in my weak side front pocket,so I can't get it with my strong hand.although shooting lefty there's not much drop off in ability.

Quote:
2. How do you do it?
can't


Quote:
3. Have you even thought about it?
sure, I only pocket carry when I really don't need to carry.If I go someplace I feel the need to carry I carry 2 guns.

Quote:
4. Do you even care?
again yes.And besided FOF I'm better off with my gun in my pocket.
__________________
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
Quote:
originally posted my Mike Irwin
My handguns are are for one purpose only, though...
The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."
mavracer is offline  
Old December 19, 2009, 08:57 PM   #36
Erik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479
I'm not a fan of pocket carry for primary pistols, though often rely on pocket carry for secondary pistols. Specifically, front pocket, support-hand side. Why? I can't reliably access a pistol from the pocket in other than an upright, relatively static position. In other words, the ideal "standing and walking around" position. And since I'm out of that position so often throughout the average day, let alone during training cycles... I chose not to rely on pocket carry for a primary except in rare circumstances. But that's just me.

As for accessing and using a support-side pocketed BUG, I train to default to doing so with my support-hand. I figure at that point I've got so much working against me that I've got to make up some time, if nothing else.
__________________
Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective

Last edited by Erik; December 19, 2009 at 09:11 PM.
Erik is offline  
Old December 29, 2009, 12:36 PM   #37
LightningJoe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Location: DFW Metroplex (well, McKinney)
Posts: 858
Nothing's perfect. Is it possible you might need to draw your gun with your other hand? Sure, it's possible. But there are bigger problems with pocket carry than that*. Still, strong-side front pocket carry has so many tactical advantages of such great value that the problems are outweighed, at least in my opinion.


*such as the difficulty of drawing your gun when sitting.
__________________
I believe in a world which consists of America, her friends, and her dead enemies.
LightningJoe is offline  
Old December 29, 2009, 03:26 PM   #38
mrt949
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 16, 2008
Posts: 1,465
POCKET

Pocket carry is easier for ME living in FLORIDA .Tried diferent holsters but pocket works best NO PRINTING IN FL.
mrt949 is offline  
Old January 4, 2010, 01:07 PM   #39
Hook686
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2005
Location: USA The Great State of California
Posts: 1,974
Here in California I have read that putting ones hand on a firearm and generating fear in another can lead to a felony. For what it is worth, I find greater comfort in being able to put my hand in my pocket and grip a handgun than worry about not being able to very quickly, or easily reach the handgun with my weak hand.

Yes I can get to the handgun with the weakside hand (even if I have to take off the pants). It just is not quick.

I've thought about it and given more value to having my hand on a gun under some circumstances, without stirring up notice of same.

Do I care ? Hmmmm yes and no. It would ne nice to have a J frame in each pocket, but sometimes I am compelled to simply accept the givens. In any event, here in California one is limited to three handguns for carry. However I figure there seems to be no 'Perfect' method, all seem to have advantages and disadvantages. It seems one is free to focus on the advantages, or the disadvantages, of each method. Then pick the method one is most comfortable with and practice, practice, practice. Be safe out there.
__________________
Hook686

When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.

Last edited by Hook686; January 4, 2010 at 02:21 PM.
Hook686 is offline  
Old January 4, 2010, 01:45 PM   #40
KSFreeman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2001
Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America
Posts: 5,416
Quote:
1. Are you able to access your weapon with your off-hand if you needed to?

2. How do you do it?

3. Have you even thought about it?

4. Do you even care?
1. Yes, but it takes some contorsions.

2. I have to be seated and then set my feet and twist my shoulder (reach with the body, not the hand) to my left pocket).

3. Yes, that is why I do not do it. Also, pocket carry is dangerous as we have had news stories here at TFL over the years where people have been killed or seriously injured with pocket carry (including Yankees manager Billy Martin who was nearly killed at a bar in Indianapolis when a pistol fell out of a pocket of a fellow bar patron).

4. Yes, I care, that is why I do not carry in my pocket. If I was up on my feet more it might be a good place for a third or fourth gun, but just to drop the pistol in my pocket as the gun shoppe commandos tell you (and then they always pat their pockets) is less than optimal.

Pockets in outside cover garments, winter coats and the like, may be utilitarian especially if seated in an automobile.
__________________
"Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).
KSFreeman is offline  
Old January 4, 2010, 02:54 PM   #41
Wagonman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 987
I agree with Mav. I pocket carry only when I am not expecting to need a gun.

Why the criticism of the 5 shot snubbie especially the hammerless versions for pocket carry.
Wagonman is offline  
Old January 9, 2010, 09:24 AM   #42
smince
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
Quote:
Why the criticism of the 5 shot snubbie especially the hammerless versions for pocket carry.
Not a criticism of the 5-shot.

More so those who shoot a 5-shot occasionally, stick it in their pocket, and consider themselves 'prepared'.
smince is offline  
Old January 9, 2010, 09:57 AM   #43
highcaliberprovider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2010
Location: Western North Carolina
Posts: 143
Not a moot point.

I too asked this same question. In the field its not an issue. But, when you're carrying concealed it is. Most pocket guns allow a very small amount of ammo. And, even though in most situations this amount is enough, it is comforting to know that you have a backup. You never know when your mag will malfunction even if you dont need extra ammo. I solve the problem by carrying on the inside of my weak side ankle with a holster that allows for an extra magazine. This allows me to access the weapon and spare mag from either side. When you're carrying concealed, you should always keep in mind that your clothing should go around the weapon rather than vice versa. Cargo pants are a good solution to this problem. It's pretty easy to get to a cargo pocket with either hand. If cargos are not an option, then think about the angle of the opening of your pocket. A lesser angle and shallower pocket makes grabbing the mag with your off hand less of an act of contortion. Or, if all else fails, carry an extra mag in each pocket. Then access with either hand really does become a moot point.
__________________
"Those who hammer their guns into plow shears will become subject to those who do not."
highcaliberprovider is offline  
Old January 9, 2010, 11:00 AM   #44
win-lose
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 3, 2009
Posts: 451
Quote:
Not a criticism of the 5-shot.

More so those who shoot a 5-shot occasionally, stick it in their pocket, and consider themselves 'prepared'.
Smince, can we be a little less judgmental... You wrote that criticism in a reply to me. I carry an 5 shot sp101, which I have put many thousands of rounds through and shoot every range trip. I have used this gun in many of the training courses I have taken. Obviously this comment would not apply to me, regardless of your intent to make it so.

But, what of the Dentist, Doctor, Lawyer, Accountant, Librarian or other who doesn't have any interest in guns and has filled their lives with other activities and interests. They buy a gun for insurance and pay their premiums a few times a year practicing at the range. Are they less prepared for the world than Joe/Jane Commando carrying his/her 4 guns, 3 knives, brass knuckles and what ever else strikes his/her fancy? Should they be judged and degraded because they aren't capable of taking on a gang single handedly? Perhaps, being able to defend against a late night movie theater parking lot mugger is really the extent of their concern. These people are not inferior to you, smince. They merely value things differently then you do.

I, and I suspect you as well, (really) enjoy guns. How much of what we justify as necessity is really just furthering our enjoyment of a hobby?
win-lose is offline  
Old January 9, 2010, 11:41 AM   #45
smince
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
OK, maybe I should have said:
Quote:
More so those who shoot a 5-shot occasionally, stick it in their pocket, Post On Gun Forums Regularly and consider themselves 'prepared'.

Last edited by smince; January 9, 2010 at 12:56 PM.
smince is offline  
Old January 9, 2010, 12:03 PM   #46
Tennessee Gentleman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,611
smince,

I don't know if you have heard of him but Michael Bane does a very good podcast called DownRange Radio. In his last podcast (#142) he talks about thinking about the "odds" when going thru life activities. Seeing the world as it is rather than we wish it to be. I would recommend it for a listen.

While one may be best prepared wearing a 1911 and carrying a tricked out AR-15 it may not be very likely that you would need such if you arre just going to the mini-mart for milk.
I pocket carry a five shot revolver and based on the lifestyle I lead I think that option suffices.

I could be wrong and be attacked by a ninja hit team so then I might be out of luck.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted."
Anonymous Soldier.
Tennessee Gentleman is offline  
Old January 9, 2010, 12:58 PM   #47
rdrancher
Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2007
Location: North Texas
Posts: 96
Wow folks...

Carry what you want, how you want and train a bunch.

I live in the country and pocket carry a 642-1 every day. When I'm in town walking into the store, or wherever, my hand is always on the grip. When I'm driving the gun is secured and ready at my side. On the tractor, the pocket holster and gun get tucked into my waistband appendix style or a coat pocket. I have speedloaders and strips pretty much everywhere - truck, tractors, pockets...you name it.

Because you can never be 'too' prepared, there's also a 22 rifle and a 12 gauge behind the seat, ready to go.

Works for me.

rd
__________________
Behind the Barn
rdrancher is offline  
Old January 9, 2010, 01:33 PM   #48
smince
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
Ok, I listened to Mr. Banes podcast.

I don't see that he and I are at 'odds' (pardon the pun).

I'm not 'operator grade' as he refers to. You see me out, and you wouldn't even think I had a gun, which is as it should be. No 511 gear, BDU's or "photo vests". Believe it or not, I usually DON'T have a rifle or shotgun in my vehicle.

I don't play the odds. I like to stack the deck in my favor. That's why I carry a G19 or 26 instead of a 5-shot snubbie. That's why I pay upwards of $1000 a to attend professional training once or twice a year. One instructor is fond of saying "Luck favors the prepared".

Mr. Bane is correct: the world is a dangerous place. I live in a small town, pop less than 5000. A good friend of mine didn't expect to shoot every round out of his LCP one night last year when he went to visit his girlfriend, but it happened. And it served him, but just barely.

Now he's looking for a bigger gun with more capacity and seeking better training.

I think I'm through with this one.

EDITED TO ADD: My wife, son, and I just went out for lunch. Our round trip was less than 5 miles. I carried my G19, reload, and a knife. My wife had her EDC, reload and knife. FWIW.

Last edited by smince; January 9, 2010 at 03:19 PM.
smince is offline  
Old January 9, 2010, 04:24 PM   #49
Tennessee Gentleman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by smince
Ok, I listened to Mr. Banes podcast. I don't see that he and I are at 'odds' (pardon the pun).
Did you catch the part where he talks about carrying different guns depending on where he is(around about 42:31 in the podcast)? That is the more important part that I thought pertained to this thread. In particular the personal threat level he discussed and how it differs from Ding Dong ID and Kandahar.

BTW I think having a gun the bad guy doesn't know you have stacks the deck pretty well.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted."
Anonymous Soldier.
Tennessee Gentleman is offline  
Old January 9, 2010, 07:04 PM   #50
smince
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
Quote:
Did you catch the part where he talks about carrying different guns depending on where he is(around about 42:31 in the podcast)? That is the more important part that I thought pertained to this thread. In particular the personal threat level he discussed and how it differs from Ding Dong ID and Kandahar.
Sure I heard that. Question: What do you do when the bad guys come down to Ding Dong?

ASSUMING everything will be a 1 on 1 affair and ASSUMING that 1 or 2 rounds will solve all your problems is just frankly ludicrous.

Quote:
BTW I think having a gun the bad guy doesn't know you have stacks the deck pretty well.
Did you read the part where I said you wouldn't be able to tell I was armed with my Glock?
smince is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14276 seconds with 7 queries