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Old December 13, 2009, 02:20 AM   #1
wildthing423
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assistance with non ffl black powder gun questions

Hello all,

I have been contemplating buying a few black powder rifles and pistols and shotguns, and one that would be a very accurate long rifle. Truthfully , I do not know much about it. I am specifically looking for someone to answer a few questions for me. I bought a property that is really large and mountain terrain and I have shot black powder with a few people but did not load out, just fired it, and I liked it. I am going to build something up there and there is everything from moose to bear to moutain lion and the entire gambit of smaller game and predatory animals. My wife had sold all my firearms while I was once again deployed as one of my girls was messing with them, unloaded, but it scared my wife to death. My daughter found where I kept the combination. So, my wife had saved the money from the sale and gives it to me. Ok , fine, she had power of attorney. So I am going to go black powder while I am up there over seeing the construction. But I know nothing much about them.

Now, I Run a rest. bar and security at night and I am telling a few of the patrons there yesterday or rather today as it was only an hour ago what I am telling you now.
the people consisted of 7 police and sheriff deputies of which 3 were SWAT. 2 lawyers and a pawn shop owner whose mainstay is firearms. So were talking about black powder and powder replicas and one of the police brings up modern non ffl muzzle loaders for which there is a type of conversion by buying xtra barrels. Similarly, they tell me the same about modern muzzle loading shot guns and pistol. Now these guys and 1 ladie were not drunk but they had enough to drink to be a PIA and they continue on about conversion kits and forget replicas and non ffl blah blah and it just sounds like doo doo, but I can not really say as I lack knowledge on this, I will be seeing some of them again tonight as I work again at 6pm est. and this is what i would like to know,specifically if you are a policeman/women or hold an ffl dealer license .

1. are ther modern designed non ffl muzzle loading rifle, pistols and shotguns.

2. do all the above have a conversion availability?

3.were they bsing me or can you switch from black powder to center and or rim fire buy buying an xtra barrel?

4. Are there replica and modern black powder long rifles like the one in "quigley downunder?" or rather as accurate.

These guys told me that for the amount of money that my wife got for my other firearms I could get more and better black powder, but again I do not know

If they are correct about the modern non 4473 black powder weapons could someone list them here and point me in the right direction.


Mark
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Old December 13, 2009, 09:37 AM   #2
mykeal
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Quote:
1. are ther modern designed non ffl muzzle loading rifle, pistols and shotguns.
Yes. A gun which is not designed to use cartridge ammunition is not considered a firearm by BATFE and is exempt from the provisions of the 1968 Gun Control Act. "Modern designed" rifles would be called 'in-line' designs as they do not use a sidelock ignition system. The only "modern designed" pistol I can think of would be the Ruger Old Army; it uses the tradtional percussion cap ignition but the action is modern, the same as the Ruger Blackhawk.

Quote:
2. do all the above have a conversion availability?
No. A conversion capability for one rifle exists, and some states consider the conversion capability as negating the GCA '68 exemption so that they are considered modern firearms. More common are conversion kits for revolvers. There are no such kits for shotguns that I'm aware of.

Quote:
3.were they bsing me or can you switch from black powder to center and or rim fire buy buying an xtra barrel?
As far as rifles are concerned, yes, that can be done, but I believe there's only one rifle that has that capability.

Quote:
4. Are there replica and modern black powder long rifles like the one in "quigley downunder?" or rather as accurate.
Absolutely. Pedersoli makes replicas of the Quigley and other contemporary long range rifles; they're available from Dixie Gun Works and others. There are also two manufacturers of the Sharps long range rifles. All are high quality and expensive.

I do not recall the brand or model of the rifle that has the conversion barrel capability; I'm sure someone will post that for you, however.
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Old December 13, 2009, 10:50 AM   #3
simonkenton
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The Thompson Center Encore has interchangable barrels. You can shoot a muzzleloading barrel, or a modern centerfire barrel on the Encore receiver. The barrels change out in seconds.
But, the receiver is considered a modern firearm.
So, a TC Encore with a muzzleloader barrel on it is legally a modern firearm, by federal law.

CVA also has the same type of centerfire/muzzleloader interchagable system.
If the muzzleloader barrel can easily be changed out to a modern centerfire barrel, then the receiver is considered a modern firearm. If the muzzleloader barrel cannot be changed out to a centerfire barrel, then it is a non-4473.

Yes you can buy a rifle just like Quigley used.
His was a .45/120, or, a .45 slug with 120 grains of black powder.
This is an accurate rifle, no doubt. Also expensive, about $1300.
But, if they didn't outright lie in "Quigley Down Under," they stretched it a little.
They showed Quigley taking out that guy driving the wagon at full speed at a very long range, maybe 600 yards.

Virtually an impossible shot with iron sights, it could be made, and that rifle could kill a man at that range if you could hit him but very hard to make a shot that far.

If you wanted to make a good shot at 600 yards, you would want a modern sniper rifle with a scope.
You might use a .308, or a .338 Lapua. Due to the much better ballistics of the modern rifle, and the superiority of the scope over the iron sights Quigley used, a modern scoped rifle would easily outshoot the Quigley rifle at 600 yards.

As far as long range shooting with old time guns, or muzzleloaders, your best bet is probably the Savage muzzleloader. It shoots modern smokeless powder, yet, it is not considered a modern firearm by Federal law.
It is the most powerful muzzleloader, and it is accurate.
I know guys who have shot deer at 350 yards with the Savage. Of course this was with a scope.
Even for the Savage this is really long shooting, requires an expert shot and good conditions and a good rest.

Interestingly, ballistically the Savage is a version of the Quigley rifle, because the Savage shoots a .45 slug, same caliber as the Quigley. The difference is, the Savage has more power due to the smokeless powder.

A story you may want to google up is the story of Billy Dixon at the Indian fight at Adobe Walls.
Dixon killed an Indian warrior at a range of 1,500 yards. Dixon was using a rifle similar to Quigley's, the .50/90 Sharps. So, fantastic long range shooting is possible with the old time guns.
One thing in Dixon's favor: He was shooting at a group of about 15 mounted warriors, who were all bunched up on top of a knoll, planning their next attack. Apparently he fired at that group, and with one shot managed to kill a warrior.


If they are correct about the modern non 4473 black powder weapons could someone list them here and point me in the right direction.

There are all kinds of modern non 4473 muzzleloaders. By the way, your Quigley rifle is considered a modern firearm, because it shoots metal cartridges.
Anyway, just go to Cabelas.com and you can see the lineup. Thompson Center, CVA, lots of people make the inline muzzleloaders that are non-4473. The Thompson Center Omega is a top quality inline muzzleloader that is non-4473.
As I said, for me the Savage tops the list but not sold by Cabelas.
If a Cabelas muzzleloader is rated as a modern firearm, there will be a notation there where they describe the rifle.

Last edited by simonkenton; December 13, 2009 at 01:02 PM.
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Old December 13, 2009, 01:20 PM   #4
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You've got good information about finding modern black powder rifles (in-lines). The Encore is a an FFL-required rifle because it can take a barrel for using modern cartridges, but many people love them because you essentially can get one gun to do it all.

If you are interested in the Sharps rifles like from Quigley, you will still have to go through an FFL (unless you get an original Sharps from the 1800's). The reproductions made today are able to use modern powders, as well as blackpowder. The 1874 Sharps like Quigley's uses regular self-contained cartridges loaed with either modern smokeless or blackpowder. Either way, because it uses self-contained cartridges, it's a firearms by law.
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Old December 13, 2009, 02:07 PM   #5
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I don't know much about black powder long guns, but am a revolver shooter instead.

Cap and ball revolvers are also NFA-exempt, and can be shipped through the mail, no FFL, no 4473 (at least in most states).

In addition, centerfire cylinders are available for many of them, and are basically drop-ins. Also NFA-exempt.

It is perfectly legal to buy a cap and ball revolver through the mail, say, for example, a Colt 1860 Army or a Remington New Model Army, then swap in a conversion cylinder, and end up with a .45LC or .45ACP 6-shot revolver. It's just that, if you sell the revolver later, you have to swap the cap and ball cylinder back in.

Unless you permanently modify the recoil shield of the revolver to incorporate a loading gate cut, and buy a cylinder that incorporates a loading gate (Kirst makes them like that, I believe), then you have to remove the cylinder to reload it. Or just carry a spare loaded cylinder if you're worried about going up against a rampaging biker gang or an attack of undead zombies. But, if you have a Remington-replica, the cylinder swap can be done pretty quickly - see Clint Eastwood in Pale Rider!
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Old December 13, 2009, 07:18 PM   #6
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The one they were talking about changing is the barrel is a Rossi three barrel set. http://www.rossiusa.com/product-list.cfm?category=2 is the webpage on them. They are essentially a break apart single shot shotgun with a muzzle loading black powder barrel and a cartridge barrel fitted to the action. They also come in 2 barrel sets, these do not have the black powder barrel.
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Old December 13, 2009, 08:00 PM   #7
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Quote:
If you wanted to make a good shot at 600 yards, you would want a modern sniper rifle with a scope.
You might use a .308, or a .338 Lapua. Due to the much better ballistics of the modern rifle, and the superiority of the scope over the iron sights Quigley used, a modern scoped rifle would easily outshoot the Quigley rifle at 600 yards.

ballistically the Savage is a version of the Quigley rifle, because the Savage shoots a .45 slug, same caliber as the Quigley. The difference is, the Savage has more power due to the smokeless powder.
Someone has been reading way too many gun rags.
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Old December 13, 2009, 08:45 PM   #8
Fingers McGee
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[QUOTE][Someone has been reading way too many gun rags. /QUOTE]

+1. and not too good ones at that. That rifle could hit a man sized target at 600+ yds all day. Ever heard of Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette (BPCRS)?
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Last edited by Fingers McGee; December 13, 2009 at 08:58 PM.
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Old December 13, 2009, 10:11 PM   #9
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AFAIK any gun with a receiver or frame that was built before 1899 is considered to be an antique and is exempt and can be purchased without a license. Then the pre-1899 receiver can be rebarreled to shoot any caliber and it still remains legally exempt.

Last edited by arcticap; December 13, 2009 at 10:45 PM.
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Old December 13, 2009, 10:38 PM   #10
simonkenton
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In Quigly Down Under he shot at a man who was driving a wagon at full speed and killed him with one shot.

It could happen, but is more likely to happen in Hollywood than in real life.

Are y'all sincerely saying that a peep sighted black powder rifle is superior to a .338 Lapua with a 10 power scope, shooting at a man at 600 yards?

If so y'all need to inform the Marines immediately, the Marine snipers are at a great disadvantage in their work in Afghanistan, they need to get rid of their modern guns and get a Quigley Sharps.
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Old December 14, 2009, 12:02 AM   #11
Fingers McGee
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Are y'all sincerely saying that a peep sighted black powder rifle is superior to a .338 Lapua with a 10 power scope, shooting at a man at 600 yards?
No, we're not saying it is superior. We're saying it is not "Virtually an impossible shot with iron sights, it could be made, and that rifle could kill a man at that range if you could hit him but very hard to make a shot that far".
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Old December 14, 2009, 02:23 AM   #12
Andy Griffith
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I suggest that you do some reading up on BPCR and see what 19th century rifles loaded with real black powder can do. In ways, a .45-110 (Not .45-120 as was previously stated) "Quigley style" or any long range Sharps, Ballard, Browning, Winchester or Wesson rifle in any of the appropriate calibers are more than sufficiently accurate to keep all shots in a 30" circle at 1000 yards. 600 yards is a cake walk...1700+ yards is a good shot for one. I suggest you brush up on who Billy Dixon was.

Here's a feller shoot'n BP cartridge at long range here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4FCV...eature=related


Now, if there is a loose screw behind the trigger, it doesn't matter what kind of tacticool space gun a feller has.

It all boils down to standard deviation. This is the key to long range shooting on the gun end- no matter whether your shooting a .45-70 or a .50 BMG.

Wind, angle, weather and hazards play roles too, but that's where the shooter get out charts, cards, slide rules, wind gauge, binoculars that calculate angle or his ipod and other doo-ma-flatchies.
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Old December 14, 2009, 07:57 AM   #13
simonkenton
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The shot that I called all-but impossible was at a wagon going 20 mph at 600 yards!
Y'all are talking about a man standing still.

Big difference.
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Old December 14, 2009, 06:12 PM   #14
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Creedmore

The Creedmore is 800-900 & 1000 yds BP Crtg, iron sights, some very high scores are shot in this event. I think a shot at 600yds man size would be a easy shot if he was going straight away from me and I had a rest as in the movie. We shoot all the time at rams 500mtr thats 547 yds and more often than not get 8 out of 10 plus.
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Old December 15, 2009, 05:57 PM   #15
fr3db3ar
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It's not a long range gun.....but the Mossberg 500 also has a ML barrel that you can put on it. So you have a shotgun or a inline ML depending on which barrel you're using.
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Old December 15, 2009, 06:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
The shot that I called all-but impossible was at a wagon going 20 mph at 600 yards!
Y'all are talking about a man standing still.

Big difference.
Let's also remember that the Quigley character didn't just have a nice rifle. He was an exceptional marksman. The point of the story was that the shot would have been all-but impossible for most men.
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Old December 16, 2009, 10:41 AM   #17
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Going straight away, if I recall the movie no wind it would be an easy shot for even a 45-70 with a rest at 600yds. The key here is the known distance and the correct sight setting for that distance. I live in NE Oklahoma and have excess to a 600mtr range, and willing to back up what I say with my American made sharps, any takers? I say enough talk lets go to the range!
How come some one has not brought up the off hand shot at the bucket?
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Old December 16, 2009, 11:18 AM   #18
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The off hand bucket shot and the speed the shots were taken , prove it :barf:
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Old December 16, 2009, 01:41 PM   #19
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You did not read my last post, lets go to the range. You furnish the bucket I will furnish 1874 sharps and ammo. We shoot the chickens at 200 mtr off hand. Those chickens are much smaller than that bucket. In the movie I would guess that bucket to be in the neighborhood of 200mtr. The only thing I would question about that is the speed of the shots. Most of the BPCR shooters myself included use up a case + of real black powder in 12 mounths. You should check out a match some time. We start ours the 1st Sun in March.
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Old December 18, 2009, 11:10 AM   #20
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You'll are forgetting that "movie yards" are like "internet yards" much, much shorter than reality.
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