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Old December 12, 2009, 06:40 PM   #1
LordofWar
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Vehicle Situation

A classical situation would be when one of the bad guys is standing at your side (Driver's seat) and the second BG gets to the other side covering the passenger sitting next to you.

If I have a family member sitting & it's just a mugging I would gladly giveaway all that I have even if I'm carrying a weapon because I wouldnt want to take chances with a family member's life but what is the best way to react, tactically (offensive with your firearm), if you expect serious bodily harm or kidnapping? Also are there any drills that one should do with a family member to make the counter offensive more efficient?
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Old December 12, 2009, 09:11 PM   #2
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Someone at the passenger side threatening my wife or child? Feign putting the vehicle in park as I slip it into reverse. Crank steering wheel to the left and floor it
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Old December 13, 2009, 12:05 AM   #3
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Bingo on the sideswipe fastforty, my input is to learn to avoid these situations all together. Keep an eye out for folk walking up to your car in the rear view mirror, watch for people lingering around stop signs. Pretty much any time you must slow down or stop, ( speed bumps train track , stop lights). Thats where they are gonna wait. Be ahead of them.

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Old December 13, 2009, 06:25 AM   #4
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Sometimes the bull loses, sometimes the bull wins.

Avoiding a situation is one thing but what must be considered is you are there. You might have thought the area safe, it might normally be safe but not now, it might be it’s not feasible to avoid the area. How you got there is irrelevant.

As LordofWar said, if a mugging just give the money. However, the scenario is possible harm or kidnapping.

Let’s consider this from the perp’s perspective: He wants to kill or kidnap a person. He has to make them vulnerable and unable to resist and decides to pull it off where the victim cannot escape.

Lord did not depict blocking vehicles. If no block, then stomp the gas (going forward) and hope. If blocked in front, the suggestion to put it in reverse is the way, but I wouldn’t cut the wheel because one of the perps is left standing and I don’t know what I’d back into and stop me.

If blocked both ways turn the wheel to which side is more open and stomp it, hitting the rear of the blocking vehicle and hoping metal will bend enough to let me get past. Damage to my vehicle will be substantial and must now be considered. Is the radiator ruptured? If it is, how far can I drive before the engine seizes? The large displacement engines can usually make 5 to 8 miles before seizing. The modern small displacement “winders” can make about 4 to 5.

Forget obeying traffic laws, run stop signs, red lights, ignore if it’s a one-way street. Get somewhere safe.

If in a city this might be possible; if in wide open country you’ve had it.

If I was going to do this and decided to get the victim while he’s in his car I would get confederates. (Lord already indicated two) and block the victim in. One car in front of him, one in back, both blockers up against the victim's car. No gap. The victim might spin his wheels but that car is not going to move. The victim has had it.
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Old December 13, 2009, 06:59 AM   #5
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As the others have said, if you can, drive. Unlike your pistol, a car really does have "knockdown power."

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastforty
Someone at the passenger side threatening my wife or child? Feign putting the vehicle in park as I slip it into reverse. Crank steering wheel to the left and floor it
I know a guy who did exactly that when someone attempted to get into the car while he had his daughter with him...the BG didn't get back up.
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Old December 13, 2009, 07:13 AM   #6
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Lord of War I know that due to your situation, and from a previous post that this could very well be a likely situation for you. I would recomend a few things.
First make sure the people that are rding with you know that if you go into evasion mode to get down out of the line of sight. This also would allow you a clear shot out of the passenger side if necessary.
Next would be avoid ramming vehicles with the entire front end if it does not have the proper reinforcement. Airbags are also a consideration in newer vehicles. Also busting the radiator, or bending, or breaking one of the A arms, or in a front wheel drive the CV shaft, or trans axle. If you bust the radiator or water pump you can still make it a little while, but when it over heats and the engine blows the car will go no farther. If you break the CV shaft it is stuck right there. As well as steering controls. I learned when doing demolition derby to ram in reverse, shift to drive then evade, take out thier radiator then drive away. Thier vehicle will eventualy over heat and blow the engine.
Avoid being boxed in if at all possible. This will make the 2 above post moot as to the fact that you can drive away before the problem escalates that far.
My had is off to you. Best wishes to you and your family, stay safe.
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Old December 13, 2009, 07:22 AM   #7
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+1 kenpo tex, one of my neighbors has property in a bad neighborhood and some scum tried to carjack him in his Yukon. he floored it and took one of the guys for a ride intoa dumpster, he said it wasnt as cool as the movies in real life tho. he goes to counseling because of it
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Old December 13, 2009, 07:44 AM   #8
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What I am asking is, how to retaliate with a firearm with two BGs on both sides with one covering you & the second covering the person on the seat next to you. I'm thinking of going all Swordship, right & left, with my Glock 18 & a Glock 17 with a FSSG switch (j/k).

There is a likely chance that the BGs will shoot at you if you try to run them over or try lodge an evasive driving manouvre.

Evasive driving techniques do work but there's a good chance that the BGs will open fire & that too using automatic weapons chmbered in 7.62x39 or 5.45x39, or if they have handguns its surely going to be 7.62x25mm Tokarev, where all three calibre have immense penetrating capabilities.

How do I counter both the BGs using lethal force incapcitating them instantly giving them no time to react hence ensuring saftey of the family member sitting next to you? You can even assume a scenario where you have two handguns.
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Old December 13, 2009, 08:42 AM   #9
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They may open fire when you start to drive but they're almost definitely going to open fire when you reach for your weapon.

Ask yourself this question...do you have a better chance of getting away alive by using the car as a weapon and ramming/driving your way out of the kill zone, or by sitting there stationary trying to shoot it out with one or more guys who have you surrounded, may have superior weapons, and already have guns in hand.
With the first option, you're at least forcing them to try to hit a moving target that is getting farther away and accelerating by the second. With the second option, you're sitting there trying to draw and get instant incapacitation on more than one guy before they can fire...all this while they can shoot you like a fish in a barrel.
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Old December 13, 2009, 01:07 PM   #10
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I hate the use of the word "mugging" to describe an act which may range from a strong arm robbery to aggravated assault or even attempted murder.

Mugging sounds like someone making funny faces.


Please do not use generic non-specific words that do little to describe what you are talking about. Please be specific when trying to describe a fact pattern about which we can intelligently discuss alternatives.

My rant for the week. This is another pet peeve, like people who say walla meaning voila, or use decimate to mean devastate.
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Old December 13, 2009, 05:37 PM   #11
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I'm perhaps in the minority in this, . . . but my plan is simple, . . . I'm driving away, . . . and I don't care if the whole red shirt gang, . . . blue shirt gang, . . . or the 6th cavalry are alongside.

The probability of my getting my weapon, . . . and downing two bg's from inside the Jeep, . . . it is so ifinitesimally small, . . . it is foolhardy to think about doing it IMHO.

OTOH, . . . flooring it in reverse will bust up the guy behind me, . . . make a big racket and scene, . . . pulling it into low and going left or right (most likely to the left if I have a choice) with the pedal to the metal and the hand welded to the horn, . . . between the two incidents, . . . the bg's will most likely split for parts other-place, . . . leaving me to exchange insurance info with the guy behind me, . . . and finish filling out the police report.

That is so much easier than going down town for my own personal autopsy.

May God bless,
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Old December 13, 2009, 07:35 PM   #12
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Mello,

Mugging implies a perp robbing a victim of a portion or all of the valuables a victim has on their person at the time. The method used to overcome the victim is undefined. The final result is undefined. The location is undefined except that it’s not in the victim’s home. It does imply that if the victim complies with surrendering his valuables that no harm will then come to him.

The word mugging has been changed from its previous meaning but that’s just the way things happen in any language. (This doesn’t mean that I, personally, like it, either.)

By Lord saying in the OP, “if it’s just a mugging”, he implied less than aggravated assault and less than attempted murder. At least that’s how I understand it.

He then differentiated those actions he feared possible from “just a mugging”.
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Old December 13, 2009, 07:49 PM   #13
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Only thing I can add is that a person with gun in hand can shoot before you can draw, aim and fire.

The best advice I can give is never even show a gun if someone has a gun already drawn.

Use your vehicle as described. Personally I would swing to the right since the guy to worry about is going to be the one closest to the drivers position. He needs to be distracted and possibly struck by the vehicle. It is more unlikely he could accurate shoot a moving target that went right.
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Old December 13, 2009, 09:04 PM   #14
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In traffic, watch vehicles around you, and dont pull up close behind another one. Leaving some room, even a half vehicle length, gives the abilty to manuever. If they came from behind you, (and you watch your mirrors regularly, besides around you, right?) I would, at first sign of anyone armed getting out, hit reverse and ram their vehicle, then try to evade. If they suddenly appear next to you without you seeing them approach, you just lost valuable time and intiative, but, my first thought would be back up giving you an easier shot more forward out both sides. Your Glock 18 is full auto, correct? If your front seat passenger is alert, and will follow directions instantly and without question, I would have them lay down forward, giving you a clear shot sideways and forward over them. The 18 would let you hose down a good area around you in short order. Your front seat passenger has to understand that they cannot, under any circumstances, like a rain of hot brass down their back, raise up until you tell them to. Practicing this until they can and will do it instantly upon command could save the day.

It is possible to get a shot off before someone covering you can react, if they dont expect it, are distracted, and you can see the moment and act upon it instantly before they can figure out whats happening and react. An armed confrontation in that part of the world would suggest a kidnapping or murder to me. In either case I would assume I would not survive if I did not react, and any possible response was justfied. I would prefer knowing whats happening around me and taking the intiative rather than reacting once it had started the way they had planned it and you were looking into the muzzles of their guns.

The cutting the wheel to the left will swing the vehicle to the right in a backing manuever, giving the chance to hit the person on the right with the side or wheel of your vehicle.

Perhaps larger vehicles make you stand out, or are impractical for daily use, but having a larger, heavier, more powerful vehicle with higher ground clearance gives you more options in the sort of encounter you describe. Some ceramic or other type of armor plate in the doors would give you more chance of surviving an encounter such as you describe also. A higher vehicle will put the armor where it will do more good, rather than just glass between you and them. A receiver type trailer hitch, without the towing insert installed, beefs up the rear of your vehicle, and may keep a smaller vehicle from jamming under yours in a rear ramming manuever, hanging you up or rupturing your fuel tank. A front radiator guard may be worth having also.

How many magazines do you take along with you? Do you have any of the 33 rounders? Having your passengers able to hand you spare mags may be worthwhile. Can they shoot your weapons if need be?

Do you practice shooting while in a vehicle, one handed? At least dry firing, you can get some feel for it, and the positions, and practice on a range to get it worked out Can you shoot the 18 one handed for short bursts?
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Last edited by Malamute; December 13, 2009 at 09:19 PM.
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Old December 13, 2009, 09:25 PM   #15
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I would advise against any firing from inside a vehicle. Many LEO have lost their hearing after having to do so. The noise in a limited space will damage ears forever.

From the experience of others, there is a lot of pain from the blast inside a vehicle. Severe pain is distracting. Distractions can be fatal.
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Old December 13, 2009, 09:58 PM   #16
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With all due respect, and considering that I'm the worlds biggest weanie regarding hearing protection, if I'm in Pakistan and a couple guys are approaching with Kalashnikovs, I'm going to shoot, inside a vehicle or not. I'd rather be deaf than dead or lose a family member to a kidnapping/murder. If you hesitate to shoot when you need to, because you're worried about your hearing, you're done. Game over.
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Last edited by Malamute; December 13, 2009 at 10:04 PM.
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Old December 14, 2009, 12:25 PM   #17
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These videos may be informative

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKssREESLmQ

http://www.youtube.com/user/chernani...10/7pFQquQRJkw




This one may also http://www.youtube.com/user/chernani.../2/S1tqeEwNluY

Last edited by cubesmoothie; December 14, 2009 at 12:29 PM. Reason: shooting from moving car added
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Old December 14, 2009, 12:33 PM   #18
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Quote:
I hate the use of the word "mugging" to describe an act which may range from a strong arm robbery to aggravated assault or even attempted murder.


Quote:
Please do not use generic non-specific words that do little to describe what you are talking about.
I, like most people fully understand what it means when someone says "mugged", "mugging".
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Old December 14, 2009, 08:47 PM   #19
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The videos are interesting, but the hanging out the side window to shoot backwards doesnt make sense to me. I wouldn't be afraid to shoot through the back window to avoid hanging out the side and be more stable and be able to aim better, nor shooting through any side window or windshield, if needed, particularly in the situation Lord of War described. If you can see through it, shoot through it. Gives you a much wider field of fire. The Glock 18 with several 33 round mags, and as many 15 rounders as can be had, would be a good counter ambush/anti kidnapping defensive weapon in a vehicle, particulalry if you can shoot it one handed. As the vid mentioned also, you can shoot through the doors if needed, on either side, the top, or wherever needed.

If your vehicle doesnt have a good right side mirror (or whatever side is the passenger side on your vehicle) I would suggest getting one installed to eliminate that blind spot. A small dome spot mirror low on the inside corner of each side gives a better field of view also without ruining the main mirrors usefulness. I use a very small, perhaps, 1 or 1 1/2" diamter on the drivers side, and a 2" diameter dome spot on the passenger side.
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Old December 15, 2009, 04:20 PM   #20
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I recommend two bodyguards in a follower car and 2 more in your car. You have the money for this, least I belive you do from some of your posts. To attempt to draw and fire when covered from higher ground (they are standing and more mobile) will get you shot or killed. A driver with bodyguard in passenger seat allows you to sit in the back and have a better access to your weapon. A vest is key to this as well for both of you.

Kidnappers dont mess with multiple cars much, armed bodyguards in both will help a lot.
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Old December 15, 2009, 07:42 PM   #21
LordofWar
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I have two bullet proof vehicles (B6) and PSD comprising of ex army/le/spec ops and usually have two vehicles escorting family members but sometimes (even I agree) it really gets frustrating for them as it is irritating when some places like shopping malls, walled residential compounds, airport etc do not allow firearms in their vicinities or might require prior security clearance so it comes down to arguments, phone calls, leverage, favors etc etc etc.

Plus an employee telling them what to do is sometimes unacceptable to some of them so keeping it short it becomes a NIGHTMARE when a family member would ask me to fire a certain person, well because the poor guy was doing what I had told him to do. Some family members actually try to sneak out without them to get it from me but to do it another day.

My wife for one feels claustrophobic & short of breath in a BP vehicle. I hardly get time for the family but when I do it always has to be on their terms. So it HAS to be a NonArmoured vehicle without any security detail.

Theoratically, some of the basic offensive exit startegies to counter a situation when using a firearm IS the last resort have been something like shooting a burst at the person @ my side of the vehicle and immediately jumping/covering the person sitting next to me and landing a burst at the second BG at the other side of the vehicle etc. Another's been to spray full auto instantly upon contact and reverse at full throttle, change mag quickly another mag dump on full auto, do an L turn and speed away or if there's a car behind, full auto on contact, ram hard, take out the Krinikov or MP5K which is under the seat, immediately leave the vehicle firmly telling the passenger to drive away & call for help and pray all that range time, briefings by security consultants, books and threads at TFL are put to good use. I have zero professional training or combat experiance.

When alone I only carry any of my Glocks, HKs or SIGs but when with family I always carry a Glock 18 & a 19 with a FSSG switch with many 33 rd mags. I used to load some of them with FMJs and some with Hydrashoks but recently I've imported a lot of Corbon DPX, Ranger T Series +P and Fed HSTs and all of them run perfectly on full auto through my

Glocks but I do keep a mag or two of SMG FMJs. I keep a AK-74U (Krinikov) or an MP5-K under the seat & easily accessible. Everythings cocked, unlocked. I've practiced extensively with full auto Glocks and can land 90% of the bullets on the paper within 15 yards using two hands and 100% within 7-10 yards with one hand, in quick bursts. I'm ambidexterous so there's no weak hand.

I've had a lot of briefings from friends, family in the LE or military, security consultants, security supervisors but I'm paranoid when it comes down to family so I'm kind of not satisfied. My father was at a senior position in the military & later in the LE and did some Anti Terrorist & VIP protection courses from the US, France & UK so his experiance & the literature with him really helps.

It's not that we have a high crime rate or anything but.... I personally believe anything can happen anywhere esp when you're not expecting it. I was kidnapped for ransom once and got threat calls from well different 'focus groups' ranging from local mafia, corrupt politicians etc asking for money to which I've always flatly refused. One of my companies provide transport/shipping services, fuel etc to the Allied forces in Afghanistan so I think it's best to be safe than sorry.

I really liked and noted posts by Malamute, m&p, clayintx and others and would really value any further feedback.

Last edited by LordofWar; December 15, 2009 at 07:49 PM.
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Old December 15, 2009, 09:43 PM   #22
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You have some good resources as advisors. You said that you have had numerous briefings. Is there any of them that are willing to give you some additional hands on instruction and training that they feel may help you in your desire to be more proficient at protecting your family? When presented with the question of "What would they do or want to know in your situation?" they may have some further useful thoughts and things they could teach you. Perhaps one of your people may be able to give you advanced driving training?

I believe you are on the right track, and are capable of taking good care of yourself and your family. Some further training for you may be valuable.
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Old December 15, 2009, 10:58 PM   #23
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1st I hope I am never in the position described, however if I were and had family inside I believe I would try a far different strategy then has been described.

1. #1 priority is to protect family even if I become injured.

2. #2 priority is to give me the best chance to fight and win.

Here are the steps I would take...Lock the doors, then open my door offering my wallet, money, jewelry, and begging for mercy, while stepping as close as possible to the BG on my side. I happen to prefer a knife up close, moving inside the OODA loop, which will result in me having his weapon to engage the other BG on the other side of the car. This should be a quiet attack, unlike focusing everything on your location with gun fire. With a little luck you can have the 1st BG pretty well incapacitated in less than 2 seconds, before you either draw your own weapon or use his...

Keeping yourself confined in the car makes you a small target and very predictable. I have the body of the 1st BG and the car to act as a shield as well.

If your family is on the ball they will back out of the action as well. ???

Would it work,,,it is one of those things that there are far too many variables to be definitive. Will BG #2 shoot through his friend/pardner-in-crime?? How big are your cajones??? Lots of imponderables.

But I know I am better on the ground than in a car with a loved on next to me. Even going prone and taking the ankles with a few shots of BG#2, Most likely he will be totally focused on you, and will ignore the occupants of the car, as they pose no threat...

As I picture this scenario in my mind,,,in the car I loose every time, and my loved ones as well. On the ground, I am better than 50-50, and they can escape unharmed most of the time if they do not freeze.
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Old December 15, 2009, 11:29 PM   #24
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If you have bullet proof vehicles, body guards and a bunch of security detail, why are you posting here about the best way to handle an armed hijacking by yourself in a normal vehicle? Use the resources you have.

To answer your question, the first rule of third-world driving is to never box yourself in (leave room in front when you stop so you can get out fast). But, if two guys pull guns on you while you are sitting in your car, and they actually open fire, you'll be lucky not to be dead, no matter what you do. So, pay attention and if something doesn't seem right, start moving quickly - it may be nothing, or it may be something, but that's about the only real chance you have if you seriously think that is a likely situation to be in.
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Old December 16, 2009, 10:07 AM   #25
Malamute
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"If you have bullet proof vehicles, body guards and a bunch of security detail, why are you posting here about the best way to handle an armed hijacking by yourself in a normal vehicle? Use the resources you have."


I believe he answered that question in his last post.



"....I happen to prefer a knife up close,......"


I'm sorry, but does anyone else consider that a reasonable aproach to the situation described? It sounds like a perfect prescription to getting your entire car (and occupants) hosed down with Kalashnikov fire.
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