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 December 12, 2009, 06:03 AM #1 Ofir Member   Join Date: December 11, 2009 Posts: 45 M16/M4 Minute of arc Can anyone tell me the MOA of Colt M16/M4 differences?
 December 12, 2009, 07:30 AM #2 sneaky pete Senior Member   Join Date: November 24, 2004 Location: Florida Keys Posts: 510 MOA--nothing to do with a "Firearm" old Sneaky Pete here: MOA is a Geometrical distance of deflection for a range that a minute(1) of angle makes--an example 1 MOA = 1.04719756 inches a 100 yards, at 200 yards 1 MOA =2.09439512 inches etc. this 1 MOA is usually rounded out to 1MOA=1 inch @ 100yds. This is usually applied to a specific bullet/projectile--an example, a .223/5/56 NATO round using a Sierra 55gr "Blitz-king" projectile has a BC( how slippery it flies thru the air) of .271 and the muzzle velocity(along with atmosphereic conditions) and other variable will determine how gravity and wind will effect the bullet path in MOA of deflection over a series of ranges. This is kind of a general overview of what happens when you pull the trigger.A good Reloading manual--I like the Sierra reloading manual, an excellent choice will give you a good overview on Ballistics and Trajectories. Sounds a little complicated at first but really isn't too hard to understand. I hope I didn't confuse you too much. THANX--SNEAKY P.S. Welcom to the "Club"--It becomes infecious--BUT remember "It's just the Inernet" and everyone has an Opinion __________________ A Slave is one who is Forced to act for the benefit of another--TAXPAYER--47% of Americans Don't pay taxes. A little bit of Slavery is stll Slavery--- M/sgt GENO Last edited by sneaky pete; December 12, 2009 at 07:33 AM. Reason: added the Welcom--sp
 December 12, 2009, 07:52 AM #3 MEATSAW Senior Member   Join Date: May 1, 2009 Location: Burnet, TX Posts: 727 So to clarify for everyone who is trying to learn something here: does the 1" at 100 yards mean that 1 MOA is equal to a circle with radius of 1" at 100 yards or is it equal to a circle with a diameter equal to 1"? __________________ Veteran OEF (2002) and OIF1 (2003) - US Army Member of the Burnet Gun Fighters, Inc. and of course the NRA Oregon State University alum -- Go Beavs!
December 12, 2009, 08:10 AM   #4
mavracer
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Quote:
 So to clarify for everyone who is trying to learn something here: does the 1" at 100 yards mean that 1 MOA is equal to a circle with radius of 1" at 100 yards or is it equal to a circle with a diameter equal to 1"?
Since it's the base of the triangle it's a line not a circle. 1 MOA at 100 yards would equal ~1" line.
of course if you wanted to say it's a 1 MOA cone then it'd be a 1" diameter circle.
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 originally posted my Mike Irwin My handguns are are for one purpose only, though... The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."

 December 12, 2009, 08:21 AM #5 MEATSAW Senior Member   Join Date: May 1, 2009 Location: Burnet, TX Posts: 727 The cone was what I was getting at. I was just curious if the 1" line was from center to edge, or edge to edge. Thanks for the tip. __________________ Veteran OEF (2002) and OIF1 (2003) - US Army Member of the Burnet Gun Fighters, Inc. and of course the NRA Oregon State University alum -- Go Beavs!
 December 12, 2009, 08:31 AM #6 Bud Helms Staff   Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia Posts: 13,154 Minute of Arc (or Minute of Angle) is an angular measurement: 1/60th of a degree. It is not a line. It is not a circle. It is the subtended portion of a circle, regardless of diameter. As diameter increases, the subtended portion of the circle is a larger measurement, but the angle is the same: 1/60th of a degree. We refer to the subtended portion of the circle as a line, but in truth, it is an arc. A one inch wide line on a flat target is an approximation of the arc on the circle defined by the angle. In two dimensions, that line is a chord which cuts the subtended arc end-to-end (along the perimeter of the circle). So, it occurs to me that Ofir may be asking for the typical group sizes of the M16 vs M4. It looks like we got involved in the definition of MOA (arc and angle). That is partly because of the way the question is worded, BUT I still think we missed his question. I'll leave that to you M16/M4 shooters. I only have one MBR and that's a Steyr FAL. So, I have no comment on that. __________________ "The irony of the Information Age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion." - John Lawton, speaking to the American Association of Broadcast Journalists in 1995
 December 12, 2009, 09:26 AM #7 Ofir Member   Join Date: December 11, 2009 Posts: 45 Lets just say i undersatnd what's MOA means what's the M16 MOA if you know what i mean? or the M4
 December 12, 2009, 09:29 AM #8 Bud Helms Staff   Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia Posts: 13,154 HA! I was right. __________________ "The irony of the Information Age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion." - John Lawton, speaking to the American Association of Broadcast Journalists in 1995
 December 12, 2009, 09:30 AM #9 Ofir Member   Join Date: December 11, 2009 Posts: 45 yes you did
 December 12, 2009, 09:34 AM #10 Ofir Member   Join Date: December 11, 2009 Posts: 45 i think the M16 is 1 MOA but i'm not sure...and about the M4 i have no idea BTW with M193 ammunition
 December 12, 2009, 02:39 PM #11 sneaky pete Senior Member   Join Date: November 24, 2004 Location: Florida Keys Posts: 510 Accuracy potential of the m-16/m4 old Sneaky Back: I remember way back our shooting coaches talking about the general accuracy of the M-1 Garand( my TO&E weapon at the time) and they seemed to feel that it was a 2>3 MOA gun using Gearic mil-spec 150 gr M-2Ball ammo(30-06). I purchased a '43 springfield Garand and Tweeked it up(a lot) and an able to get 1-1/4>1-1/2 inch 10 shot groups(supported) at 100 using Korean M-2 ball. I would expect that the m-16/m4 (mil-issued) using mil- spec 62gr ball ammo would be in the same 2>3 MOA range. Now needless to say that rifle can be Tweeked-up to obtain 1 MOA +/- however a lot depends on the tweeking AND the Ammo used. I've got a target AR-15 (scoped) that I have shot a 10 shot group of 0.378 inches at 100 yds(supported).I hope that this answer is more in line to what you were seeking?? THANX--SNEAKY __________________ A Slave is one who is Forced to act for the benefit of another--TAXPAYER--47% of Americans Don't pay taxes. A little bit of Slavery is stll Slavery--- M/sgt GENO
 December 12, 2009, 03:24 PM #12 LukeA Senior Member   Join Date: July 1, 2009 Posts: 542 I think I remember reading on here that M4s are accepted by the military with a 4MOA ten-shot group.
 December 12, 2009, 04:58 PM #13 Quentin2 Senior Member   Join Date: June 18, 2009 Location: NorthWest USA Posts: 1,996 I think the question was too ambiguous to answer properly. MOA with carry handle sights, or an Aimpont, or a good scope, or mounted in a fixed rest? I think 4 MOA sounds about right for either the rifle or carbine but they can do better - depending...
 December 12, 2009, 05:08 PM #14 jen45acp Member   Join Date: December 17, 2008 Location: Bluegrass of Kentucky Posts: 71 If your rifle shoots at or better than 1 MOA with a certian brand of ammunition, then the largest grouping from center to center of the bullet holes on the target at 100 yards would be 2.100 inches.
 December 12, 2009, 05:12 PM #15 Jimro Senior Member   Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,030 With service ammunition you can expect 3 MOA from an M16 and 4 MOA from an M4 from sandbags. Like anything, some rifles will shoot tighter than that. With match ammunition the numbers get smaller. If you shoot MOA or better, a group center to center will be one inch or less at 100 yards. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.
December 13, 2009, 09:41 AM   #16
Double Naught Spy
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Quote:
 If your rifle shoots at or better than 1 MOA with a certian brand of ammunition, then the largest grouping from center to center of the bullet holes on the target at 100 yards would be 2.100 inches.
Um, no.
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 December 13, 2009, 09:45 AM #17 radom Senior Member   Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,298 service ammo M-16 type 1.5 to 2.5 inch...M-14 2.5 to 3.5.
 December 13, 2009, 09:56 AM #18 MEATSAW Senior Member   Join Date: May 1, 2009 Location: Burnet, TX Posts: 727 I have heard (may or may not be true) that M16s only need to shoot 8 MOA to pass military standards and then be issued. That sounds horrible and indeed it is, but a pop-up target at 300 yards would still be able to be hit (somewhat) consistently even with an 8 MOA rifle. Like I said, I am not sure if that is the exact truth, but it sounds right to me. (considering the condition of some rifles in our military...) When I bought my Bushmaster 20" HBAR as stock as could be I was shooting about 2-3 MOA or so with the iron sights. Since then I have modded it up quite a bit (still the same barrel and internals) and topped it with a Leupold Mark 4. Now I can average 1 MOA all day. __________________ Veteran OEF (2002) and OIF1 (2003) - US Army Member of the Burnet Gun Fighters, Inc. and of course the NRA Oregon State University alum -- Go Beavs!
 December 13, 2009, 10:03 AM #19 radom Senior Member   Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,298 8 inch is a bit extreem but they used the same standards as the M-1 and M-14 as that was what had been in the books since like 1936. 6.5 inch comes to mind.
 December 13, 2009, 10:17 AM #20 Candiru Senior Member   Join Date: June 7, 2005 Posts: 117 Here's an article on the accuracy of various top-tier ARs. Might be somewhat relevant. __________________ If you've enjoyed these pithy and irritable comments, you may also enjoy visiting my articles page.
 December 13, 2009, 11:07 AM #21 Art Eatman Staff Lead   Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 23,781 As-issue, out-of-the-box military ARs of whatever sort oughta be able to hold maybe two or three MOA with iron sights. Some will be better. Top of the line quasi-custom AR-15s will do a lot better, particularly with scope sights. __________________ You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
December 13, 2009, 11:29 AM   #22
kraigwy
Senior Member

Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 10,518
Quote:
 Can anyone tell me the MOA of Colt M16/M4 differences?
This question confused me, maybe its because I haven't had enough coffee yet but.

A MINUTE OF ANGLE IS A MINUTE OF ANGLE REGARDLESS OF WHAT GUN, or ammo, or even no gun and ammo.

But I'm still confused as to the orginal question.

Accuracy of a giving mass produced gun like STANDARD M16, 4, M1s, M14s etc. is a direct result of when they came off the assembly line.

New equipment, machinery or what ever is gonna produce tight tollerances where as the machinery wears out, the tollerances loosen up. Standards are set, when the tollerances exceed those standards, the machinery is replaced or repaired.

Some people, like White Oak (just an example) make target versons. Their tollerance guide lines are more strict, they are selling to target shooters where as the military had to feed hundreds of thousands of soldiers, who for the the most part can't shoot well enough to tell the differance.

Then the army desides they need more accurate guns for the service teams of the DMP (Desinated Marksman) so then send the guns to the AMU or simular places to have them Matched Out.

We as shooters deside what we are gonna do with the gun and buy accordingly. If you want to shoot beer cans at 100 yards, then pretty much any off the shelf AR will work, it you want to shoot 1000 yard service rifles then he's gonna have to pay big bucks for a WOA or simular rifle.

What MOA has to do with it? Well its too early, but I'd say NOTHING.

MOA is MOA
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December 13, 2009, 11:57 AM   #23
MEATSAW
Senior Member

Join Date: May 1, 2009
Location: Burnet, TX
Posts: 727
Quote:
 Accuracy of a giving mass produced gun like STANDARD M16, 4, M1s, M14s etc. is a direct result of when they came off the assembly line.
In this case also a direct result of who had it before you and how it was used/abused.

I think there is a bit of a difference when you are talking about buying your own AR, and getting one issued to you in the military. In the case of buying your own I would expect that new ARs should be able to get to 1.5 MOA at the least once you find the right load.

If you are asking about an M16 or M4 that you will be issued from the military... as long as you can knock down the evil green men (pop-ups) well I wouldn't worry too much about the MOA.
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 December 13, 2009, 12:06 PM #24 kraigwy Senior Member   Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 10,518 OK after a couple more cups of coffee, and re-reading the post, I am starting to see more clearly. We're not talking MOA per se, we are talking group size. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Oct '78 Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
 December 13, 2009, 12:22 PM #25 Palmetto-Pride Senior Member   Join Date: May 31, 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 2,055 http://230grain.com/showthread.php?t=66619 Did anyone else find this test to be flawed? For some they did 4 shots vs 5 shots and then it goes on to say the shots were not all taken on the same day and or weather conditions and in the beginning it says the same lower with a Magpul PRS stock was going to be used on all the uppers, but then it kind of sounds like they didn't because it says how not all the stocks were sitting in the rest the same.........this article left me...... __________________ “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” -Margaret Thatcher-

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