The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 10, 2009, 01:31 PM   #1
Richard C
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2009
Posts: 9
Iver Johnson revolver

Greetings, This is my first post, haven't even filled out my profile yet.

RE: A Just repaired a 32 cal Iver Johnson Safety Hammer 5 shot revolver, NRA Good. [Main spring] Hasn't been fire it yet. Smith & Wesson 32 Ten-X cowboy ammo 76GR RN is what Cabela's tech say is proper for it, some coming. I'm thinking glove and glasses the first few rounds. A friend who has not seen the gun said tie it to a tree for the first couple rounds. This should be the correct ammo, gun in good condition. What do you think? Richard
Richard C is offline  
Old December 10, 2009, 01:38 PM   #2
Tomahawk674
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2009
Posts: 10
You need to know what model it is, 1st and 2nd models are black powder ONLY. 3rd models can take smokeless. Can you post some pics?

Here is some info found at http://www.american-firearms.com:

Topbreaks (Safety Hammer) .32 cal. S&W small frame

Owl is looking to the barrel, cylinder is free wheeling when at rest, for black powder cartridges


Model 1, First Model

Single top latch, 100'000 were manufactured in 1894, serial number without letter prefix, marked on the top of the barrel rib
IVER JOHNSON'S ARMS & CYCLE WORKS FITCHBURG. MASS.U.S.A.
PAT'D.APR.6.86.FEB.15.87.MAY 10.87.DEC.26.93 PAT'S PENDING


Model 1, First Model, first variation

Single top latch, 100'000 were manufactured in 1895, serial number without letter prefix, the difference was the cylinder retainer, marked on the top of the barrel rib
IVER JOHNSON'S ARMS & CYCLE WORKS FITCHBURG. MASS.U.S.A.
PAT'D.APR.6.86.FEB.15.87.MAY 10.87.DEC.26.93 PAT'S PENDING


Model 1, First Model, second variation

Single top latch, 50'000 were manufactured in 1896, serial number with A letter prefix, marked on the top of the barrel rib
IVER JOHNSON'S ARMS & CYCLE WORKS FITCHBURG. MASS.U.S.A.
PAT'D.APR.6.86.FEB.15.87.MAY 10.87.DEC.26.93 PAT'S PENDING


Model 2, Second Model

Owl is looking to the barrel, cylinder is free wheeling when at rest, for black powder cartridges

Double top latch, manufactured from 1897 - 1899, serial number with A, E or F letter prefix, marked on the top of the barrel rib
IVER JOHNSON'S ARMS & CYCLE WORKS FITCHBURG. MASS.U.S.A.
PAT'D.APR.6.86.FEB.15.87.MAY 10.87.AUG.25.96 PAT'S PENDING

The Second Model Hammer continued in 1900 with the 1st variation and stopped in 1908 with the 6th variation. Overall production was 950'000 revolvers.

number 83351 / 346, in grip number 8330 or 83301 marked, left side right side
Tomahawk674 is offline  
Old December 12, 2009, 12:34 AM   #3
Richard C
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2009
Posts: 9
Greetings, The # N21629 I'll try to post a pic.
Richard C is offline  
Old December 12, 2009, 12:48 AM   #4
Richard C
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2009
Posts: 9
Having trouble posting. We have dial up.
I see no patent or date.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IVERJOHNSON 001a.JPG (42.2 KB, 506 views)
File Type: jpg IVERJOHNSON 002a.JPG (49.1 KB, 354 views)

Last edited by Richard C; December 12, 2009 at 12:54 AM.
Richard C is offline  
Old December 12, 2009, 04:10 AM   #5
PetahW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2008
Posts: 4,679
[Smith & Wesson 32 Ten-X cowboy ammo 76GR RN is what Cabela's tech say is proper for it, some coming.]

Have the Cabela's tech test fire it for awhile.

That gun's frame looks to be one that's set up to take/use a leaf-type mainspring ILO a coil spring, and ergo is a blackpowder gun AFAIK.

The early steel is not of a modern mixture, was engineered for BP prior to the introduction of smokeless powder.
The early steels cannot long stand up under the different type pressure of smokeless powder, and IMHO (and others) should never be fired with modern ammo - "Cowboy" loads or not..

Many folks have chimed in with comments that such & such ammo will chamber/fire - and that may all and well be true, but it only takes one shot to burst/crack one open.
It just may not be the first shot.

.
PetahW is offline  
Old December 12, 2009, 03:41 PM   #6
Richard C
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2009
Posts: 9
Do you know if: Ten-X cowboy ammunition: 32 S&W 78GR RN would be proper ammo for black power model?
Richard C is offline  
Old December 12, 2009, 05:13 PM   #7
PetahW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2008
Posts: 4,679
Richard, no disrespect meant - but I am neither a Cabela's sales rep trying to sell something, nor a Ten-X ammunition company rep, empowered to speak for them.



IMHO, since the box isn't marked as being loaded with blackpowder, I would assume a smokeless powder was used - and as I posted above - ANY smokeless load, strong or weak, has diferent pressure characteristics than blacpowder.

You want to fire new ammo in an old gun.
It's your gun, and your health - but you might want to talk to the horse's mouth first, and speak with Ten-X.
PetahW is offline  
Old December 12, 2009, 05:45 PM   #8
hickstick_10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2009
Posts: 477
no it wouldnt, its not marked blackpowder, neather would winchesters cowboy loads be suitable, again not loaded or marked black powder

goex black dawg, if they make it in that caliber would be ok.
hickstick_10 is offline  
Old December 14, 2009, 02:27 PM   #9
woad_yurt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2008
Posts: 1,206
New .32 S&W is loaded to less than original pressure and power levels to be on the ultra-safe side. I have a bunch of 'em and have owned a bunch more. New ammo works just fine. I use Mag-Tech. If the gun is sound, it shouldn't be harmed by new .32 S&W ammo.
__________________
A Makarov? Simple, easy and works perfectly every time. ¡Vale!
woad_yurt is offline  
Old December 14, 2009, 06:37 PM   #10
Magnum Wheel Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2006
Location: Southern Minnesota
Posts: 8,195
just started getting into these myself...

just bought my 2nd, a Secret Service Special, my 1st was one just like yours, but nickel & hammerless...

I'll be loading up new cases with these lead round balls...

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=786830

& light loads of Trail Boss powder... I'm thinking about lubing with Lee Alox bullet lube ( a laquer type liquid that dries after applied ), by applying on the ball & the case mouth union, after the balls are loaded

I highl doubtI'd feel comfortable on earlier guns with any factory loads, but I'm buying mine with every intention of shooting them... good luck with your I.J.
__________________
In life you either make dust or eat dust...
Magnum Wheel Man is offline  
Old December 14, 2009, 08:22 PM   #11
woad_yurt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2008
Posts: 1,206
Couldn't resist:

My ex-girlfriend's H&R .32, her carry gun. While it's no cannon, it's better than a .22 or a .25 for saying "get off me!" It's very small, too.

__________________
A Makarov? Simple, easy and works perfectly every time. ¡Vale!
woad_yurt is offline  
Old December 15, 2009, 11:37 PM   #12
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,316
The "N" prefix Iver Johnson Safety Hammer guns date from 1905, and would have been made for smokeless powder.

I would not carry an IJ or H&R (or about any other gun of that vintage) not because of concern for the powder or the power but because the leaf springs frequently break. If faced with the need to use the gun, a broken hand spring could spoil your whole day.

I'll stick to my Model 19, Model 36 or my new 642, thank you.

Jim
__________________
Jim K

Last edited by James K; December 15, 2009 at 11:44 PM.
James K is offline  
Old January 9, 2010, 10:17 PM   #13
inparidelicto
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2010
Posts: 2
Iver & Johnson pistols

Guys:

Thanks in advance for the info. I have two I & J .32 cal. pistols from my mom's estate. I know these are not valuable guns, but can anyone help me determine the year of mfg. and value, to the best of anyone's knowledge?

Thanks much

Pistol #1: 3 1/4" barrel; serial No. D 491 (1 or 7) XX (serial No. under left grip on frame);

Pistol #2: 5" barrel; serial No. D 164XX (serial No. on butt of grip).

Or, in the alternative. . .please give me a website where I may find what I seek.

Thanks again, guys.

Last edited by inparidelicto; January 10, 2010 at 12:24 AM.
inparidelicto is offline  
Old January 3, 2012, 03:50 PM   #14
DougN
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2012
Posts: 1
Help date an Iver Johnson revolver

Just found this forum. Wow there's a lot of neat stuff in here. I have a feeling I'll be spending a lot of time on this site!

Need help identifying manufacture date for an Iver Johnson 5-shot .38 S&W top-break Safety Automatic; chrome; 3" barrel; hammer; double post barrel latch; single leaf hammer spring; bakelite-like hard black grips; SN M7059 stamped on left frame under the grip; 7059 stamped bottom of trigger guard; top of barrel reads - Iver Johnson Arms & Cycle Works, Fitchburg, Mass. USA; bottom of grip reads - Pat'd Apr. 6, 86. Feb. 15, 87; May 10, 87. Mar. 13,88. Pat's Pending.

Most of these features are identifiable to particular models listed around the web, except two - I can't find anything about a model with the Mar. 13, 88 patent date or with an 'M' serial number prefix. Help!
Can anyone help me determine the manufacture date of this pistol?
DougN is offline  
Old January 3, 2012, 11:52 PM   #15
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,316
Hi, DougN,

Your gun is called the Safety Automatic* Revolver, Second Model Hammer Version, which was made from 1895 to 1908. If I understand the tables in the late Bill Goforth's book, that gun was made in 1904.

There were two relevant patents issued on March 13, 1888. The first was 379,225 to Iver Johnson and Andrew Fyrberg for the barrel latch on the revolver frame rather than on the top strap. The second, 379,227 was to the same people, and was for a second or safety trigger behind the trigger guard which had to be pulled upward to allow the primary trigger to move.

AFAIK, your gun has neither feature; it was common at one time for companies (not just gun companies) to "pile on" patent dates to impress the buyer and discourage imitators, so many products show patents that were not used on that item or not even used at all.

*Automatic in this case means automatic ejection of fired cases when the gun was opened, as opposed to the swing cylinder "hand ejector" revolvers made by S&W and Colt which required an additional manual action to eject the empty cases.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old January 4, 2012, 04:31 PM   #16
Jack O'Conner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 11, 2005
Location: Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,475
The political push for 1968 gun control law was highlighted by crime stories related to so-called Saturday night specials. These were low cost revolvers supposedly purchased for criminal intent. Iver Johnson and other low cost revolvers rec'd much bad publicity at the time. Unfair but true.

Jack
__________________
Fire up the grill! Deer hunting IS NOT catch and release.
Jack O'Conner is offline  
Old January 4, 2012, 07:19 PM   #17
Shotgun693
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2011
Location: Poteet, Texas
Posts: 959
Quote:
You need to know what model it is, 1st and 2nd models are black powder ONLY. 3rd models can take smokeless. Can you post some pics?
I love the old Breaktops. When I'd work cows I'd have a .38S&W in my pocket just to have some kinda gun. They are all old. They were made with metal that just isn't as tough or strong as that we have now. To be on the safe side, IMO, use black powder in all of'm. It's easy to load, really easy to clean up and about as safe as you can get.
Shotgun693 is offline  
Old February 4, 2013, 01:30 PM   #18
TillB
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2013
Posts: 3
I'm new to the form, so may have posted in the wrong spot about my old IJ.
I am searching to find the mfg date to be sure what kind of ammo to use.
Here is the info I have:
Iver Johnson;top Break .32 caliber DA revolver; nickel plate; 5" long barrel; 5 round fluted cylinder is not free wheeling when at rest. Grip has ""IJ"" monogram with Owls Head facing grip. Patent dates: Aug 25'96 & Nov 17'08. SN: A86264
Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.
TillB is offline  
Old August 7, 2014, 04:11 AM   #19
WE0H
Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 69
Looks like everyone gave up on this old thread I stumbled upon a 3rd revision Iver Johnson 38SW 5" blued the other day and just had to bring it home. Stopped by a gun shop on the way home and bought 100 rounds of PPU 38SW Now to order dies and a bullet mold so I can do some reloads once I fire off these 100 rounds.

Mike
WE0H is offline  
Old August 7, 2014, 05:35 AM   #20
Magnum Wheel Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2006
Location: Southern Minnesota
Posts: 8,195
I guess my collecting has progressed a lot since my 2009 posting

BTW... been loading 1000's of rounds of 32 & 38 S&W since...





__________________
In life you either make dust or eat dust...
Magnum Wheel Man is offline  
Old August 7, 2014, 05:43 AM   #21
WE0H
Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 69
Now that's a cool collection

I am now looking for a target grip for my IJ 38 if you know where I could find one I will upload a pic of it after breakfast later this morning.

Mike
WE0H is offline  
Old August 7, 2014, 06:18 AM   #22
Magnum Wheel Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2006
Location: Southern Minnesota
Posts: 8,195
Thanks... those pics are actually pretty old ( as is this thread ) I haven't picked up any new top breaks since I took it though, but I've rearranged a bit...

I don't have any extra target grips... might have a couple MOP grips, but I've begun reshaping some of those... so even the ones that have a chip or two, can often be refit to a smaller gun, of course if they are tiny & damaged, there's not much I can fit them to, but I've been using a Dremil & one of a couple grinding stone bits, to reshape... I had a 32 grip safety S&W, that did not have the correct grips, I found I was able to reshape a damaged set of mother of pearl grips I had, to fit the gun...

the dust is nasty, & you need to wear a dust mask, but it was actually pretty easy to get good results with just common tools

as far as reloading, I do 3 load levels from revolver check out ( mouse fart loads ) to general use, to hotter self defense loads, that I don't run too many through the gun, but of which "most" will handle, in case I'm feeling like carrying one of my antiques... ( which I've been known to do )

I re-qualified for my CCW range test last time using an antique spur trigger top break 38 S&W
__________________
In life you either make dust or eat dust...
Magnum Wheel Man is offline  
Old August 8, 2014, 06:44 PM   #23
Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 1999
Location: WA, the ever blue state
Posts: 2,909
I lightened up the OP's pic.

I have a number of Iver Johnson break tops. I collected them because my grandfather had one in the Alaskan Gold rush, and it is the only gun he brought back. I have fixed a lot of them. Most common is the trigger spring breaks.

Back in the 1970s pawn shops had so many the stored a stack of them strung on a wire through the trigger guard. The gun buy back programs have wiped out the glut.

Generally they are not worth much for collecting and not worth much for functionality. You have to want to fool around with them.

--------------------------

Magnum Wheel Man,
What kind of rod did you poke up the muzzle for the gun display?
Any rust or scratching problems?
You happy with that system?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IVERJOHNSON 002a gamma.jpg (30.8 KB, 8 views)
__________________
The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books."
"Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist.
Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?
Clark is offline  
Old August 11, 2014, 05:32 AM   #24
Magnum Wheel Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2006
Location: Southern Minnesota
Posts: 8,195
Steel rods, covered with heat shrink tube over the outside... no issues with this system...
__________________
In life you either make dust or eat dust...
Magnum Wheel Man is offline  
Old August 13, 2014, 03:00 AM   #25
gyvel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2009
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 5,229
Quote:
Steel rods, covered with heat shrink tube over the outside... no issues with this system...
A pretty good alternative to this is to just go to your local autoparts store and buy some nylon vacuum hose of the correct ID. Just slip it over the rod; It give a little extra padding between your gun and the steel rod.
__________________
MIIAA
SIFE
gyvel is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12935 seconds with 8 queries