"real" old S&W breaktop revolvers... what would be your choice ???

Magnum Wheel Man · December 9, 2009, 11:24 AM

I'm not sure why, but lately I've been infactuated with the old S&W's...

Model 1.5, 2, 3, that sort of thing... I've been looking for something "cheaper", but mechanically sound or fixable, that maybe the finish is in poor condition, & that I could send out & have re-nickeled, so nothing good enough that I'd be destroying the original value by refinishing it... good grips would be a plus, but replica grips would be fine too, for my purposes...

my goal is something old, yet functional & shootable, to carry for special occasions ( where I don't expect to need a "normal" carry gun )...

so, whats your favorite, single action??? spur trigger or regular ???hammerless??? 32 caliber ??? 38 caliber ???

thoughts on which would be the most durable ??? ( I plan on mild handloads ), but want a gun that is still shootable...

thanks for your opinions...

PetahW · December 9, 2009, 11:45 AM

[thoughts on which would be the most durable ??? ( I plan on mild handloads ), but want a gun that is still shootable...0

[thanks for your opinions...]

Fahgettaboutit !

Think, instead: Refinished & placed in a sealed shadow box & hung on the wall.

Those 100 to 150 year-old revolvers were not made of the same strength steels that modern guns are - not taking any deterioration and/or abuse into consideration.
They were built based upon 1800's blackpowder strength and internal pressure/ballistics.

In fact, there ane many examples of those early rimfire examples bursting apart when fired with modern .22 Short ammo - nevermind any kind of smokeless CF loads.

Some are very pretty, and it's easy to become infatuated - but look & touch only, don't shoot them (please).

.

Magnum Wheel Man · December 9, 2009, 11:51 AM

I fully understand the lack of heat treating on the steels, & maybe I should have said extremely light reloads ???

I'm more concerned about durability of the small parts, timing, etc...

a new model Schofield would be nicer, but they are both bigger & more expensive... & of course, not "really" old...

Jim Watson · December 9, 2009, 11:54 AM

David Chicoine, who gunsmiths old S&Ws puts the cutoff for smokeless powder in 1907 -1909. That gets you a .32 DA Fifth Model, .32 Safety Hammerless Third Model, .38 DA Fifth Model, .38 Safety Hammerless Fifth Model, .38 Perfected Model.

A collector here once told me that the exposed hammer double actions were the most mechanically fragile guns that Smith ever made. A friend had one in pieces in a box because the self-sprung cylinder stop is broken and just irreplaceable.

The .38 Safety Hammerless 5th stayed in production from 1909 til 1940 and would be the best bet for formal wear pocket carry. The Perfected Model, with integral trigger guard, combination top and side latches, and better steel, is probably the sturdiest, but they are much less common and more expensive.

There are a lot of old Iver Johnsons and Harrington & Richardsons being shot on a one-cylinder-full-a-month basis as Cowboy Pocket Pistol Side Match guns. The dividing line here seems to be that the coil spring guns are modern enough for smokeless.

Magnum Wheel Man · December 9, 2009, 01:26 PM

JIM... thanks for the very informtive post... maybe an old "lemon squeezer" in 32 S&W ???

I see there is also a really nice U.S. Revolver Co. 32 S&W "top break"... but I'm not sure of the quality or durability there ???

...also a nice Hopkins & Allen "Safety Police" hammerless snubbie that is a top break... that one has MOP grips, which I guess would be OK... only Hopkins & Allen guns are usually about the same as Stevens quality, & often not the best steels used at the time ???

I think, one diecent top break would get this out of my system... um... maybe

CraigC · December 9, 2009, 01:43 PM

The #3 Russian .44 is my favorite but I doubt I'd get an original. The Uberti replicas are fairly well regarded. Can't help on the pocket pistols.

mtnbkr · December 9, 2009, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigC

The #3 Russian .44 is my favorite but I doubt I'd get an original.

I saw one of those at a gunshow in Raleigh, NC a few weeks ago. I came very close to buying it, but declined because I'm not enough of an expert to determine if it was worth the $1200 asking price.

Chris

CraigC · December 9, 2009, 02:49 PM

It was an original for $1200? The Uberti replicas are damn near a thousand. I'd say if it was in decent shape, tight enough to shoot and had a good bore, it was definitely worth the asking price. Don't know about getting replacement parts though or if the Italian parts will interchange.

mtnbkr · December 9, 2009, 03:03 PM

Yup, it was an original. It looked like it was in good shape, didn't seem any looser than many of the newer guns I've handled. Bore looked ok, etc.

Like I said, I'm just not enough of an expert on them to judge them appropriately and once you hit that price level, I want to be *sure* about it.

Chris

CraigC · December 9, 2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

...once you hit that price level, I want to be *sure* about it.

You ain't kiddin'! Definitely better safe than sorry. One good screwin' seems to negate a good handful of good deals you pounced on.

Snakum · December 9, 2009, 03:35 PM

Last year I sold a 5th model DA .32 for $175, and that was about what it was worth in it's current condition (finish flaking, chipped handle, etc.). There's no way I would have shot the thing, even though I had an old box of wadcutter .32 S&W ammo. Too fragile.

Put in a display case or sell it to a collector. Don't shoot it. Just my $.02.

**James K** · December 10, 2009, 12:20 AM

I have a H&A Safety Police in .38 S&W. They are good, well made guns, with a unique approach to the "hammer the hammer" concern. Since they didn't come out until 1908, they are OK for smokeless loads in the normal pressure range.

FWIW, I appreciate the desire by most folks not to fire modern loads in the old .32 and .38 revolvers. Still, I have fired possibly hundreds of them, rim and center fire, with no problems - no kabooms. Of course, some old guns should not be fired with any cartridge with any powder, and using .32 ACP is a no-no.

My main concern with using an older revolver as a defense gun is not that it would blow up but that 1) with the small guns, the power of the cartridge is not adequate and 2) the possibility of parts breakage is just too high.

But I have a M1899 S&W M&P that handles standard .38 Special loads with no problem, and why should it not? That is what it was made for.

Jim

PetahW · December 10, 2009, 01:25 AM

[maybe I should have said extremely light reloads ???]

Maybe I should have been clearer, when I posted:

[They were built based upon 1800's blackpowder strength and internal pressure/ballistics.]

To connect the dots, let me say this: ANY smokeless powder loads, no matter how light, can be injurious to the health of both a BP revolver and you.

The reason is that smokeless powders have a very different pressure curve and/or characteristics than does black powder - making more of a pressure wave/impulse than a "push", which is what breaks the oldies.

As Jim posted - get a later, smokeless powder break-open revolver, instead of a "real" old one.

.

Magnum Wheel Man · December 10, 2009, 08:27 AM

I can understand the concern... I was looking at several on G.B. yesterday, & both the 32's & the 38's had paper thin chamber walls in the cylinders... coupling this with likely softer steels, & probably cylinder notches lining up with the chambers tells me the smaller 5 shot guns must have been very low powered...

...but, I'm thinking pretty light loads using Trail Boss, or perhaps Unique, & cast bullets only ( I have a buddy that could alter the molds for me, giving me a hollow point cast bullet, that would then be lighter than the standard of the time ), which should help with pressures some... FWIW... I'm not looking at anything that is heavily pitted, no sense losing what little strength there was in the 1st place...

I'm not thinking about buying till next year, but have been looking at a few of these on G.B. for ideas as to what is available, & what they are selling for... these are a few guns that caught my eye... of these, any suggestions for my use ???

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=149307074

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=149262565

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=148536097

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=149694819

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=149754196

of those, I personally like the H&A Safety Police 32 Hammerless the best, ( 2nd link ) I think it would look really nice if it were electroless satin nickeled, with the MOP grips, & the shorter barrel... hmmm... might have to squirrel away some of my Christmas money & buy myself something ??? thoughts on that gun ???

madcratebuilder · December 10, 2009, 09:42 AM

I have a couple of the old lemon squeezers. I do shot them on rare occasions. Parts are near impossible to find, you need to buy a parts donor revolver if you plan on much shooting. I don't think I wouldn't trust any of them but a S&W and maybe a Iver Johnson in really good condition.

What's up with those prices????????? You used to buy those for $50, $200 for a beat to poop lemon squeezer, that's nuts.
Last one I bought I paid one hundred for and felt it was top dollar.

MortalWombat · December 10, 2009, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Definitely better safe than sorry. One good screwin' seems to negate a good handful of good deals you pounced on.

This is true on so many levels.

Tomahawk674 · December 10, 2009, 01:52 PM

Magnum, I did pretty much what you said in your first post. I bought an Iver Johnson for $75, and redid it to look like this for $100 and some hours of work:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...t=iver+johnson

Magnum Wheel Man · December 10, 2009, 02:14 PM

That looks awesome... personally I find the ball loads to be more accurate in a lot of these old guns... I'm looking at E.A. Brown doing my metal finishing, & it's $175.00 for everything, they do full disassembly & reassembly, & all the metal prep... their finish ends up a satin grey, rather than polished looking like yours ( which is making me rethink the satin finish BTW

) my local smith will inspect & or rebuild internals as needed... I'm thinking 32 S&W, because I'm already doing some "pop gun" loads with trail boss for MRS. MAGNUM to use in my stainless single six 32 H&R mag & some of the components my cross over, or atleast the 32 S&W should fire in the single six as well

my goal for this gun, is for it to be similar to a BBQ gun for poker nights & barn dances & the like... I won't shoot it often, but hope to either find a load that will shoot to point of aim, or "adjust" the sights, so that it does, at least at belly gun distances...

Tomahawk674 · December 10, 2009, 02:41 PM

Thanks, I am glad I have that little Iver Johnson. I would definatly go with a polished look, since that's how they used to come; not mirror, but shiny.

jdscholer · December 11, 2009, 02:54 AM

M. D. Smiths Reloading Pages list several loads specifically for 38 S&W Break-tops which I have used with great success and enjoyment. I have also shot a few boxes of factory stuff in my little "pea-shooter", but they feel kinda---harsh.

My favorite powder has become HP-38, because it goes through my Uniflow powder measure accurately even in minuscule amounts (as low as one grain). I'm also a believer in light bullets, and use 125 gr. in my 38 and 77 gr. in my 32 Lemmonsqueezer. I've even been playing around with 32 cal round ball gallery loads in the 32 with good success.

I think that I've put about a thousand rounds through the 38, (4th Model DA) and detect no sign of loosening or mechanical harm; but I really want to emphasize that I keep my loads gentle. I'd be interested in putting some through a Chrony sometime, and I wouldn't be surprised if they are clocking 4 or 5 hundred fps. And they are accurate (I think); three or four inch groups at 25 yds. with a rest. jd

MTHanded · December 11, 2009, 08:36 AM

I have a 32 Iver Johnson that I bought a few years ago for about a hundred bucks. It's in great shape and shoots just fine when I take it out about once a month. I bought the IJ because of size and easy to slip into the pocket when answering the door or just needing it to be handy but not carrying around town. It's perfect for those situations but I would never take this out and shoot a box of rounds through it every week. It's just not made for that and there are better guns for target shooting.

December 9, 2009, 11:24 AM	#1
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 6,979	"real" old S&W breaktop revolvers... what would be your choice ??? I'm not sure why, but lately I've been infactuated with the old S&W's... Model 1.5, 2, 3, that sort of thing... I've been looking for something "cheaper", but mechanically sound or fixable, that maybe the finish is in poor condition, & that I could send out & have re-nickeled, so nothing good enough that I'd be destroying the original value by refinishing it... good grips would be a plus, but replica grips would be fine too, for my purposes... my goal is something old, yet functional & shootable, to carry for special occasions ( where I don't expect to need a "normal" carry gun )... so, whats your favorite, single action??? spur trigger or regular ???hammerless??? 32 caliber ??? 38 caliber ??? thoughts on which would be the most durable ??? ( I plan on mild handloads ), but want a gun that is still shootable... thanks for your opinions... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

December 9, 2009, 11:45 AM	#2
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 3,268	[thoughts on which would be the most durable ??? ( I plan on mild handloads ), but want a gun that is still shootable...0 [thanks for your opinions...] Fahgettaboutit ! Think, instead: Refinished & placed in a sealed shadow box & hung on the wall. Those 100 to 150 year-old revolvers were not made of the same strength steels that modern guns are - not taking any deterioration and/or abuse into consideration. They were built based upon 1800's blackpowder strength and internal pressure/ballistics. In fact, there ane many examples of those early rimfire examples bursting apart when fired with modern .22 Short ammo - nevermind any kind of smokeless CF loads. Some are very pretty, and it's easy to become infatuated - but look & touch only, don't shoot them (please). . Last edited by PetahW; December 9, 2009 at 11:50 AM.

December 9, 2009, 01:26 PM	#5
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 6,979	JIM... thanks for the very informtive post... maybe an old "lemon squeezer" in 32 S&W ??? I see there is also a really nice U.S. Revolver Co. 32 S&W "top break"... but I'm not sure of the quality or durability there ??? ...also a nice Hopkins & Allen "Safety Police" hammerless snubbie that is a top break... that one has MOP grips, which I guess would be OK... only Hopkins & Allen guns are usually about the same as Stevens quality, & often not the best steels used at the time ??? I think, one diecent top break would get this out of my system... um... maybe __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust... Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; December 9, 2009 at 02:59 PM.

December 9, 2009, 03:35 PM	#11
Snakum Member Join Date: August 26, 2009 Location: North Carolina Posts: 84	Last year I sold a 5th model DA .32 for $175, and that was about what it was worth in it's current condition (finish flaking, chipped handle, etc.). There's no way I would have shot the thing, even though I had an old box of wadcutter .32 S&W ammo. Too fragile. Put in a display case or sell it to a collector. Don't shoot it. Just my $.02. __________________ Malfunction drills? I run Glocks and AKs so I don't have to bother with that stuff.

December 10, 2009, 12:20 AM	#12
James K Staff Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 16,398	I have a H&A Safety Police in .38 S&W. They are good, well made guns, with a unique approach to the "hammer the hammer" concern. Since they didn't come out until 1908, they are OK for smokeless loads in the normal pressure range. FWIW, I appreciate the desire by most folks not to fire modern loads in the old .32 and .38 revolvers. Still, I have fired possibly hundreds of them, rim and center fire, with no problems - no kabooms. Of course, some old guns should not be fired with any cartridge with any powder, and using .32 ACP is a no-no. My main concern with using an older revolver as a defense gun is not that it would blow up but that 1) with the small guns, the power of the cartridge is not adequate and 2) the possibility of parts breakage is just too high. But I have a M1899 S&W M&P that handles standard .38 Special loads with no problem, and why should it not? That is what it was made for. Jim __________________ Jim K

December 9, 2009, 11:51 AM	#3
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 6,979	I fully understand the lack of heat treating on the steels, & maybe I should have said extremely light reloads ??? I'm more concerned about durability of the small parts, timing, etc... a new model Schofield would be nicer, but they are both bigger & more expensive... & of course, not "really" old... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

December 9, 2009, 11:54 AM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 9,663	David Chicoine, who gunsmiths old S&Ws puts the cutoff for smokeless powder in 1907 -1909. That gets you a .32 DA Fifth Model, .32 Safety Hammerless Third Model, .38 DA Fifth Model, .38 Safety Hammerless Fifth Model, .38 Perfected Model. A collector here once told me that the exposed hammer double actions were the most mechanically fragile guns that Smith ever made. A friend had one in pieces in a box because the self-sprung cylinder stop is broken and just irreplaceable. The .38 Safety Hammerless 5th stayed in production from 1909 til 1940 and would be the best bet for formal wear pocket carry. The Perfected Model, with integral trigger guard, combination top and side latches, and better steel, is probably the sturdiest, but they are much less common and more expensive. There are a lot of old Iver Johnsons and Harrington & Richardsons being shot on a one-cylinder-full-a-month basis as Cowboy Pocket Pistol Side Match guns. The dividing line here seems to be that the coil spring guns are modern enough for smokeless.

December 9, 2009, 01:43 PM	#6
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	The #3 Russian .44 is my favorite but I doubt I'd get an original. The Uberti replicas are fairly well regarded. Can't help on the pocket pistols.

December 9, 2009, 02:49 PM	#8
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	It was an original for $1200? The Uberti replicas are damn near a thousand. I'd say if it was in decent shape, tight enough to shoot and had a good bore, it was definitely worth the asking price. Don't know about getting replacement parts though or if the Italian parts will interchange.

December 9, 2009, 03:03 PM	#9
mtnbkr Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2000 Location: Manassas, Virginia Posts: 911	Yup, it was an original. It looked like it was in good shape, didn't seem any looser than many of the newer guns I've handled. Bore looked ok, etc. Like I said, I'm just not enough of an expert on them to judge them appropriately and once you hit that price level, I want to be sure about it. Chris

December 10, 2009, 01:25 AM	#13
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 3,268	[maybe I should have said extremely light reloads ???] Maybe I should have been clearer, when I posted: [They were built based upon 1800's blackpowder strength and internal pressure/ballistics.] To connect the dots, let me say this: ANY smokeless powder loads, no matter how light, can be injurious to the health of both a BP revolver and you. The reason is that smokeless powders have a very different pressure curve and/or characteristics than does black powder - making more of a pressure wave/impulse than a "push", which is what breaks the oldies. As Jim posted - get a later, smokeless powder break-open revolver, instead of a "real" old one. .

December 10, 2009, 08:27 AM	#14
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 6,979	I can understand the concern... I was looking at several on G.B. yesterday, & both the 32's & the 38's had paper thin chamber walls in the cylinders... coupling this with likely softer steels, & probably cylinder notches lining up with the chambers tells me the smaller 5 shot guns must have been very low powered... ...but, I'm thinking pretty light loads using Trail Boss, or perhaps Unique, & cast bullets only ( I have a buddy that could alter the molds for me, giving me a hollow point cast bullet, that would then be lighter than the standard of the time ), which should help with pressures some... FWIW... I'm not looking at anything that is heavily pitted, no sense losing what little strength there was in the 1st place... I'm not thinking about buying till next year, but have been looking at a few of these on G.B. for ideas as to what is available, & what they are selling for... these are a few guns that caught my eye... of these, any suggestions for my use ??? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=149307074 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=149262565 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=148536097 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=149694819 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=149754196 of those, I personally like the H&A Safety Police 32 Hammerless the best, ( 2nd link ) I think it would look really nice if it were electroless satin nickeled, with the MOP grips, & the shorter barrel... hmmm... might have to squirrel away some of my Christmas money & buy myself something ??? thoughts on that gun ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust... Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; December 10, 2009 at 09:06 AM.

December 10, 2009, 09:42 AM	#15
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,864	I have a couple of the old lemon squeezers. I do shot them on rare occasions. Parts are near impossible to find, you need to buy a parts donor revolver if you plan on much shooting. I don't think I wouldn't trust any of them but a S&W and maybe a Iver Johnson in really good condition. What's up with those prices????????? You used to buy those for $50, $200 for a beat to poop lemon squeezer, that's nuts. Last one I bought I paid one hundred for and felt it was top dollar.

December 10, 2009, 01:52 PM	#17
Tomahawk674 Junior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Posts: 10	Magnum, I did pretty much what you said in your first post. I bought an Iver Johnson for $75, and redid it to look like this for $100 and some hours of work: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...t=iver+johnson

December 10, 2009, 02:14 PM	#18
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 6,979	That looks awesome... personally I find the ball loads to be more accurate in a lot of these old guns... I'm looking at E.A. Brown doing my metal finishing, & it's $175.00 for everything, they do full disassembly & reassembly, & all the metal prep... their finish ends up a satin grey, rather than polished looking like yours ( which is making me rethink the satin finish BTW ) my local smith will inspect & or rebuild internals as needed... I'm thinking 32 S&W, because I'm already doing some "pop gun" loads with trail boss for MRS. MAGNUM to use in my stainless single six 32 H&R mag & some of the components my cross over, or atleast the 32 S&W should fire in the single six as well my goal for this gun, is for it to be similar to a BBQ gun for poker nights & barn dances & the like... I won't shoot it often, but hope to either find a load that will shoot to point of aim, or "adjust" the sights, so that it does, at least at belly gun distances... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

December 10, 2009, 02:41 PM	#19
Tomahawk674 Junior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Posts: 10	Thanks, I am glad I have that little Iver Johnson. I would definatly go with a polished look, since that's how they used to come; not mirror, but shiny.

December 11, 2009, 08:36 AM	#21
MTHanded Member Join Date: November 24, 2009 Posts: 31	I have a 32 Iver Johnson that I bought a few years ago for about a hundred bucks. It's in great shape and shoots just fine when I take it out about once a month. I bought the IJ because of size and easy to slip into the pocket when answering the door or just needing it to be handy but not carrying around town. It's perfect for those situations but I would never take this out and shoot a box of rounds through it every week. It's just not made for that and there are better guns for target shooting.