The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 11, 2009, 04:34 PM   #51
Stevie-Ray
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,518
Quote:
Maybe this analogy will be better suited here. I have a mechanic that works on my personal vehicles. He owns hundreds of pounds of tools and uses them daily. Yet he does not carry them on his person all the time. He retrieves what he needs at the time he needs it. I have never seen him carrying any tools when he was not working.
That's not really analogous. If he were coming to your home to work on your vehicles, he would probably be carrying a lot of those tools, either in a pouch or in a portable toolbox.
Quote:
Using the argument that we may need something so carry it all the time does not hold water. Suppose a firing pin breaks on your sidearm? Do you carry a backup weapon to compenstate for an unanticipated or unexpected need?
In a word, yes.
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old December 11, 2009, 05:34 PM   #52
KingEdward
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2009
Location: The Volunteer State
Posts: 439
everyone has different needs and assesses (or doesn't) accordingly.

I share time between a house near a university and a major town
bypass and a 1 BR apartment (3rd floor) in a "gated" apartment complex.

Both "areas" in reviewing the police crimes report percentages over the last
couple of years have had increases in burglaries and car thefts but decreases in rapes and assaults.

What does this mean to me. Not much. There was a break-in/rape 10 houses
down from my house last year. There was an armed (kicked the door off the hinges at midnight) two thugs with pistols home invasion across the hall and
2 floors down from my apartment. I am the one who saw the guys taking off
their ski masks and leaving from my apt window and I called 911.

I base my needs keeping these things in mind and in both places I keep all doors locked (and dead-bolted) and keep revolvers and 20 gauges nearby whether awake or asleep.

My biggest concern (and one reason I carry) is coming in from work to the apartment alone and someone "getting the drop" on me and walking me into
the apartment at gunpoint and then having their way.

I am VERY attentive to the vehicles, people, what the new car or different car is and suffice it to say that more often than not at night, I will likely have my right hand on a ccw (in jacket or shorts depending on the weather) and ready for anything. At the apartment I'm always in condition yellow borderlining on red.

At the house, because all my doors are visible by about 5 other houses (corner lot with houses behind) I am a little more in plain cond yellow.

I carry a six shot colt or 5 shot J frame revolver along with one speed loader. A cell phone, a mini mag lite, a gerber 4" lock blade, a pen and mini
note pad.

I do not carry other things or multiple guns. I spend some time every few weeks practicing with most of my firearm choices and keeping them maintained and ready.

Aside from the lives of family, myself, and others I care about, there's not
any other reason I carry a gun or concern myself with them (aside from the casual camping/hiking trip or a little rabbit/turkey hunting).
__________________
"It'll happen fast once I start" - Charlie Waite
KingEdward is offline  
Old December 11, 2009, 06:01 PM   #53
Buffalo Wing
Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Location: MO - stationed at Whiteman AFB
Posts: 82
Oldman1946 and others -

With regards to your mechanic - I have to agree that the seat belt analogy works much better. The mechanic can get his tools whenever he needs them. He won't need them at a moment's notice. Carrying them around is not a necessity. However, I wear a seat belt when I drive. If I need it I can't put it on in time, like peetzakilla said.

I was a Boy Scout back in grade school and high school - I remember several times I left something at home because I thought I wouldn't need it on a particular campout. Needless to say, I often ended up needing that exact item (forgetting a warm jacket on summer campouts definitely happened at least once. Also, bug spray). As you can probably imagine, I learned my lesson and brought those items next time. If we're talking about a gun or second mag, there may not be a next time, so I'll be taking those old lessons to heart when I start carrying.

I carry a cell phone and pocketknife everywhere as a matter of habit (not 21 yet, and can't carry on campus anyways). If I happen to need either, which I seem to quite often (and I might add I use the knife for lots of everyday things), I can't exactly get them right when I need them.

This same idea applies to carrying an extra magazine or BUG, as far as I'm concerned. Do we all make our own choices on whether we carry them or not? Yes, definitely. Do some of us "over-prepare"? Possibly. I can certainly see and understand why some people do not choose to carry an extra mag or BUG. I myself would rarely feel the need to carry a BUG. However, what I don't understand is why some people are so adamant that carrying a second mag or other items like a flashlight is unnecessary and push that on the rest of us. I hardly think a second mag and flashlight on someone's waist is going to put extra wear on a vehicle, for instance - or, if does, that said wear makes being more prepared not worthwhile.

Lastly - this bothered me the most.

Quote:
Law enforcement encounters the career criminal that is willing to have a shootout rather than return to jail. The CCW citizen does not.
Why is this necessarily true? A CCW citizen seems just as likely to run into a hardened "career" criminal versus the chance of running into another kind of criminal as a cop would. It would also seem to me that such a criminal would have just as much interest in killing a potential witness against him as he would a cop trying to arrest him. So were this to happen, the citizen would have just as much of a need to defend himself.

Last edited by Buffalo Wing; December 11, 2009 at 06:36 PM.
Buffalo Wing is offline  
Old December 11, 2009, 07:01 PM   #54
oldman1946
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 111
Ok

Buffalo,

The average citizen may live next door to a hardened criminal and not know it since the citizen is no threat. Yes, the avg Joe Blow may walk past people with warrants but they do not know it and the criminal is not threatened by the citizen.

Officers doing routine traffic stops are shot by those not wanting capture. The uniformed officer is a threat to the criminal and many perp will kill to remain free. I have lost three friends with the local police department as they died during their watch at the hands of those that were willing to kill to evade apprehension.

The above is why I am against citizens wearing badges and becoming a target for those that think the citizen is LEO.

Next, I have been in my share of tussles on the ground. The more you have to fall on, the worse the fall can hurt. One detective sustained a broken back when he fell on his sidearm that he routinely carried in a pancake holster in the small of his back. The scuffle was ended and so was his career but at least he did not lose his life. There are things officers are trained to do for self protection and for future identification should the need arise. Citizens are by far more upright and honest than many officers but they have minimal training in firearms. Wearing two mags, a sidearm and other items on their belt not only draw attention to their carry but also offers the criminal element to confiscate their weapon and possibly use it on others.

I am not trying to reform anyone to my way of thinking. If they want to tote a wheelbarrow of items around 24/7 then so be it. I believe carrying concealed should be legal and those carrying it be doing so while the weapon is concealed so others do not know it is there to begin with. Yet go through the booking at any mid size jail. You will find weekly additions where someone was caught carrying and the weapon was spotted by others. Then the charge becomes something else.

By the same token, I would rather have the weapon on me than in my car. More are stolen from cars than from people.

I see the criminal element daily and have to deal with the results of their actions. What people decide to do is up to them but do you really want to see people at the cash register of WalMart emptying their pockets for change and having to place their added mags on a counter while counting coins? How about walking through a parking lot with a belt full of ammo and weapons as they head toward the car next to your wife or daughter?

The argument that they need the added ammo in the event of mag failure is weak. A firearm is more likely to have a firing pin break (ask any armory officer about this). Yet they do not carry two sidearms and I am not sure a CCW allows for dual carry either. Others say they carry added ammo in the event they get into a gun battle. That is bunk. Citizens do not run into such. Yes, I will get heat over this but we, as CCW holders, need to make a better showing to the general public than what we do. A great example of this is about the Pharmacist that killed the police officer in the east this week. The main thing brought out by the media was he was a CCW holder. Another prime example is the CCW holder a few weeks ago that shot the robber and then while the robber was wounded and on the ground, the CCW holder walked over and shot him some more. Yes both are now in jail but the public got the wrong impression from those type. Seeing someone armed is one thing but seeing them walking around with a box of ammo is like seeing the Major at Fort Hood. We live in different times. There was a time when nobody needed permits. Now the media and the Feds would love to have cause to go after our rights, our freedoms and our guns. When we come out looking like Rambo, we are giving the public concern.

I was once asked during a college lecture if the 2nd Amendment allows a person to carry a bazooka. Personally I feel it does but is that type of weaponery needed? I have been in LE for over 38 years, both gov and civilian. Not once have I been in a gun battle where I needed a pocket full of ammo and I doubt any of the officers on here have either. Not once have I read or heard of any instance where multiple reloadings were required by CCW holders in a confrontation. Most confrontations do not ever involve a discharge.

Prove me wrong about this and I will be happy. But I have made a nice living going to court on firearm cases in both criminal and civil sections. I have been written about in Law Enforcement Journal and interviewed on national news. Each interview I do is always on the positive side of private gun ownership and rights of the citizen. Then someone screws up and sets us back. We need to advance our cause and not be showing off how much ammo we can carry.

Personally I do not want to be in an extended standoff or gun battle. After the first few shots are fired, I would be ready to leave. Yes I have my extra ammo but it is in my vehicle and the vehicle is always close by and it also makes pretty good cover. But in 38 yrs, often a long way from any backup, I have never been in such a situation and hope I never am.

Flashlights are not an issue. Carry one all you want. Doing so will not irk the public. Mace, carry it. But lining your belt with ammo makes a lot of people nervous since they are curious as to what you plan on doing with it.
oldman1946 is offline  
Old December 11, 2009, 07:53 PM   #55
Buffalo Wing
Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Location: MO - stationed at Whiteman AFB
Posts: 82
Oldman1946,

I see where you are coming from. Any police officer is much more likely to encounter any criminal than any citizen is. I think, from the perspective of the police, I'd be personally interested in a third (or fourth!) extra mag, depending on the area and daily dangers of the particular job.

Having said that, I still disagree that the criminal a CCW carrier encounters will be less violent than one a cop encounters. If they are going to fight, they will, probably with the knowledge that if you live you will testify against them. You are not as dangerous to them as a cop who can arrest them, true. But the threat is still there for anyone.

As for a second mag, I'm not trying to argue the extra ammo is needed. If it is, then the carrier has it. Is that even more unlikely? Yes. If something like that ever happened to me I'd be making my way out of there, not trying to stay and use all I've got. The idea is more for a mag-related failure, which I've seen happen to my own gun before. The mag was new (barely used) and has not ever had the problem again, but it's still there in my mind.

I can't prove you wrong on a CCW holder needing multiple mags, nor will I try. It's more of a "plan for the worst" mentality I have, especially when just one more mag is very easy to carry (and, I might add, no more visible to the general public than the gun itself, so no worries there). I would hardly consider adding a gun and one mag to what I usually have with me anyways a "wheelbarrow of items", but again, personal preference.

One last note - I hope I didn't come across as one of those types - the CCW "badge" is probably one of the worst ideas I've ever heard of. It flies in the face of logic and could get one charged for impersonating an officer.
Buffalo Wing is offline  
Old December 12, 2009, 01:44 AM   #56
Mello2u
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,424
Quote:
Buffalo Wing

One last note - I hope I didn't come across as one of those types - the CCW "badge" is probably one of the worst ideas I've ever heard of. It flies in the face of logic and could get one charged for impersonating an officer.
We don't need no stinkin badges!
__________________
NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it.
" Frederic Bastiat
Mello2u is offline  
Old December 12, 2009, 03:07 AM   #57
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,319
The answer: cargo pants!

Things I carry: surefire G2, 3.5in folding knife, pen, memo pad, wallet, phone, keys, ID badge. (No firearms, as I work in a no carry zone). With that stuff, only two of my pockets have more than 1 item, and I usually leave the back pockets empty.
raimius is offline  
Old December 12, 2009, 09:44 AM   #58
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 1,801
Let's see:

In theater on foot patrol (day) I carried
- Level V body armor
- Camel Back
- Helmet
- M4/ M203
- PEQ2
- Green light Laser
- (Sure Fire for night ops)
- M68
- M9
- 7 magazines of 5.56
- 2 Magazines of 9mm
- 2 X 40mm HE
- 2 X 40mm HEDP
- 2 X 40mm Red star cluster
- Gerber Switchblade
- Leatherman Core multi tool
- GPS
- Map
- Notebook/ pen/ pencil
- Wallet/ ID Case
- Cell phone
- PDA
- Something about the size and weight of a PDA but not
- 2 flashlights (1 glow stick style, 1 beam)
- ID Tags
- Snack
- MBITR Radio
- Associated carrying pouches for all the gear attached to body armor
- Glasses/ sun glasses
- Gloves
Probably other stuff I missed....

After carrying all the crap around in 120 degree heat all day, every day, anything less seems light.
__________________
Proxima est Mors, Malum Nullum adhibit Misericordiam
MTT TL is offline  
Old December 12, 2009, 04:27 PM   #59
Stevie-Ray
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,518
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman1946
One detective sustained a broken back when he fell on his sidearm that he routinely carried in a pancake holster in the small of his back.
Hmmm...where were you when we were trying to convince everyone about the dangers of SOB carry?
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman1946
The argument that they need the added ammo in the event of mag failure is weak. A firearm is more likely to have a firing pin break (ask any armory officer about this). Yet they do not carry two sidearms and I am not sure a CCW allows for dual carry either.
This is the reason I prefer the Detroit reload. While I trust my carry weapons implicitly, anything mechanical can fail, and Murphy's law indicates it will at the most inopportune time. Besides, the BUG adds practically no weight or trouble when added to the back pocket. As far as dual carry goes, my state says you can carry a dozen if you wish with no specifics, and so do many others. Some states opt for only one and you must specify which on your paperwork. Some states opt for a few, but you can carry only one of those few selections that are listed on your paperwork. Plus, carry laws are changing yearly it seems, so keeping up on it is a must for your own state and states you may travel through.
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old December 12, 2009, 06:35 PM   #60
oldman1946
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 111
Stevie-Ray

May I ask how you guys do the quote things? Computers were not invented when I was in school and I was too busy instructing others on police procedures, weapons and such to learn computers once Al Gore invented them.

As to my location when SOB was being discouraged, I was telling him it was not a good practice but he was telling those of us trying to tell him it was a bad practice that he wanted to do it anyway.

Louisiana allows for one gun. A person can state on their permit either a revolver, semi or both. I tell people to put both because a person never knows what they will own or carry during the next four years. Some states will arrest a person with a gun on person and another in the vehicle. Louisiana has not gotten to that point yet but give the LA State Police a moment to think about it and they will implement such a law.
oldman1946 is offline  
Old December 12, 2009, 10:17 PM   #61
troy_mclure
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2008
Location: gulf of mexico
Posts: 2,716
Quote:
Louisiana allows for one gun. A person can state on their permit either a revolver, semi or both. I tell people to put both because a person never knows what they will own or carry during the next four years. Some states will arrest a person with a gun on person and another in the vehicle. Louisiana has not gotten to that point yet but give the LA State Police a moment to think about it and they will implement such a law.
i live in louisania, but have a Florida non res ccw. i studied the louisania laws verry carefully before i came down here. i have never seen the "one gun" rule before. could you post a link to it?
as far as loaded weapons in the car, its perfectly legal here, long guns included.
__________________
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
troy_mclure is offline  
Old December 12, 2009, 10:40 PM   #62
oldman1946
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 111
OK

Troy, I am also a Louisiana resident for the last 56 years.

I will get the Civil Statues and post them for you.

As to FL vs LA, the FL CCW does not allow for as many states to carry in as does LA. Some states with agreements with FL limit such to FL residents only and does not extend the right to carry to those with non resident FL CCW.

Since I do crime, accident reconstruction and police firearm consulting work over the country, I enjoy the LA commission and the reciprocity that the LA CCW offers although I mainly work TX, AR, OK, MS and AL of which both non resident FL and resident LA allows.
oldman1946 is offline  
Old December 13, 2009, 01:25 AM   #63
KenpoTex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2009
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 215
Oldman1946, It seems that after we cut through all the discussion, your main reason for saying a spare mag (or whatever) is unecessary is simply that it's statistically unlikely that one would actually need it. Is that an accurate summary?

If so, then yeah...you're right, needing a spare mag is not a likely occurrence. Having a broken firing-pin is not a likely occurrence. Having a magazine failure is not a likely occurrence, etc.
For that matter, on an individual level, having to fight for our life against a violent criminal is a low-probability event.

The thing is, as I see it, we are already demonstrating that we have chosen not to live our lives based on that probability. We are already carrying a gun so that we can efficiently deal with a situation that is never likely to occur. Some of us go far beyond just carrying a gun and actually seek formal training in the use of firearms, knives, and hand-to-hand combatives so we can efficiently deliver violence with or without a weapon.
Why? In my case, and I'm sure most would agree, I guess it's because I don't want to have to rely on anyone else for my safety. I don't want to be the guy screaming to the 911 operator and hoping that the cops show up on time (which is unlikely).

Furthermore, unlike a lot of cops, CCW-holders, or martial-artists, (I'm not aiming this statement at anyone here, just stating a fact) some of us don't focus our training on dealing with idiots . I'm not going to assume that if the "low-probability event" ever occurs, it's going to be perpetrated by someone that's a complete moron. I'm not going to waste my time preparing for the "best case" of worst case scenarios. I tend to train based on the idea that the bad guy is going to be a violent criminal with a history of similar acts, that he is going to be armed, and that he may very well have a buddy or two to back him up. I don't think this picture that I'm painting is unrealistic either.
Even if it is a statistically unrealistic paradigm, I'm more prepared than the guy who only trains to deal with someone who deserves a Darwin Award.

We already choose to prepare for an unlikely scenario. Why not prepare for a few more with the addition of one piece of equipment that requires no extra effort to carry. I mean seriously...all the other stuff aside, forget the arguments for or against, how hard is it to carry a spare magazine on your belt or slip one in your pocket. Not very hard at all when we consider the fact that we're already carrying a firearm.

Now to address the following comments:
Quote:
I only need one shot to end a bad event and I am not a fan of the pray and spray. My mag has 15 shots and that is plenty for me. Others may feel uncomfortable with only one mag but I trust my equipment and my shooting abilities.
Is it your intention to imply that carrying a spare mag is indicitive of poor shooting ability? Or that only those who are incompetent marksmen or those who lack confidence in their ability carry spare mags? I doubt that was your intention but that's the way it sounds.

Quote:
Seeing someone armed is one thing but seeing them walking around with a box of ammo is like seeing the Major at Fort Hood. We live in different times. There was a time when nobody needed permits. Now the media and the Feds would love to have cause to go after our rights, our freedoms and our guns. When we come out looking like Rambo, we are giving the public concern.
Carrying a box of ammo? Looking like Rambo? This is simply a strawman tactic.
Concealed means just that, concealed. Who said anything about walking around looking like Pancho Villa with ammo belts across our chest? I walk around armed every day and even the friends that know I carry can't tell that I'm carrying a duty-sized pistol, spare mag, fixed-blade knife, and flashlight. The same thing goes for the people I know who CCW or my LEO buddies when they're off duty...nobody is going to see them and mistake them for a terrorist.

Your comment about carrying tools in your car (roller wheel, cameras, etc.) is kind of a weak analogy. I carry plenty of crap in my car that I use frequently but we're not talking about that kind of stuff. The conversation was about tools that may be necessary to save your life. In a violent encounter, I won't be able to call "time-out" and retrieve gear from my vehicle. I'm going to have to handle the situation with whatever I happen to have immediately available. Basically, whatever I happen to have on my person at the moment the situation kicks off.

You seem like a reasonable guy but comments like the ones I referenced above do nothing to lend credibility to your arguments.


I'm not telling you what to do, and it seems pretty obvious that neither of us is going to convince the other.
All I'm saying is that it seems like "you're not likely to need it" is your main argument and from my perspective, as my grandpa used to say: "That don't cut no ice."
I'll shut up now...
KenpoTex is offline  
Old December 13, 2009, 01:52 AM   #64
output
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2008
Posts: 294
Hmm...

OP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy_mclure
ive been reading a lot of threads that people talk about their "basic load" which can include:
hand gun(or 2), spare mag/speedloader(or more), flashlight, pepperspray, large knife, phone, dummy wallet, real wallet, cash in a money clip, keys, and a small dog

but seriously where do all you guys carry this stuff? do you have the bat belt or something? a 21L fanny pack? 5.1 khakis with a special pocket for everything?

i feel burdened down with my wallet, p32, phone, knife, and keys.
even the bit i do carry seems excessive, even tho i can find no way to further reduce the load(i have the smallest/lightest phone att has), and am not ready to go .22lr yet.

are you one of the guys above?
Didn’t include the second post…but it was noted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen E. Meyer
The first two posters would benefit by some experience with trained folks in a good street tactical class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanya
The whole issue is specious, actually.

It's not really about "How much is enough?" or "What should you be prepared for?"

It's about the fact that people's interests differ.

For anyone who isn't required to carry a gun on the job [ETA: or facing a known, specific threat], having an interest in guns is a hobby, or a lifestyle choice, if you will. Some people are interested in large-caliber rifles and big game hunting, some people in shotguns and upland game hunting, and some are interested in handguns and self-defense (and shotguns and SD, etc., etc. ). Some people just like to have guns, whether or not they call it "collecting," and don't actually shoot them all that much. Some people are interested in a combination of those things, or some other aspect of the sport. All of these are fine.

Some folks have a very high level of interest in self-defense: they do a lot of research and spend a lot of money on the best possible tools and training, they travel most weekends to attend workshops or participate in defensive shooting competitions. They do all this because they like it. They enjoy it. It's fun.

And that's great. But they also need to justify the time and money they spend on what is basically a leisure activity. This is especially true in our rather puritanical culture, in which the whole idea of leisure, of doing things just because we enjoy them, is still morally suspect.

Believing that it's important to be prepared is a great rationale, not least because it happens to be true.

If you're spending a lot of time and money on self-defense, it's useful to believe that you're doing so because it's necessary in order to protect you and yours from real danger. But the odds that the average person will ever need a firearm are rather low, and the chances of being present at a riot, rampage shooting, or other event involving multiple shots or several assailants are... well, vanishingly small.

So there's a lot of potential for cognitive dissonance here: why spend so much time and money preparing for something so unlikely?

People resolve this in a couple of ways: some resolve it by perceiving more risk than there actually is, which is easy when we live in a media culture in which fear sells, and we're deluged with information about these statistically unlikely events whenever they do occur. For these people, a high level of perceived risk allows them to justify what they're doing.

Other people, like you, Glenn, assess the risk more accurately, but put more emphasis on the consequences of not being prepared for any eventuality: they know this is life-and-death stuff, so the time and money they spend is a good investment, and they like the feeling of preparedness that comes with carrying a gun, spare magazines, a backup, a knife or two, and a flashlight.

For a great many other gun owners, for whom self-defense isn't a primary interest, it still makes sense to carry a gun for protection, and/or keep one or two ready for home defense. They're entirely happy just to carry a five-shot revolver, which they know they'll probably never need. They're just not that into it, and that's fine.

It's a matter of interest and emotional investment, not [just] one of facts or statistics.
I have quoted the writing that I would like to highlight (obviously). The problem with Vanya’s way of thinking is that (it is not [just] one of facts or statistics.) for the one, two, three, or even four or more % of people that fall victim. You keep pretending that everyone that falls victim is just a [statistic] and let me know how that fairs at the end of the day when and if it happens to YOU. If you kept your eyes open you might find that there really is a lot of dissonance… I suppose you have a point though even if you don’t realize it. Assess risk as you will, just know that there is a valid reason as to why some people believe and exercise their rights to protect themselves and others as they do (which is what I believe makes our country so great!).

I see lots of people post about “others” being paranoid...or prepared. Rational, it is lovely isn’t it? As Glen said “it's no skin of my back if you are in the intense situation and don't have the stuff.”
__________________
"All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." -Winston Churchill
output is offline  
Old December 13, 2009, 07:55 AM   #65
oldman1946
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 111
quote
Oldman1946, It seems that after we cut through all the discussion, your main reason for saying a spare mag (or whatever) is unecessary is simply that it's statistically unlikely that one would actually need it. Is that an accurate summary? quote

Ok, You are pretty much correct on this. But it goes past that. Many here enjoy the wisdom and training of those like Jeff Cooper and Bill Jordan ( a super nice guy). They were of the old school and of the same feeling I and many others are. It only takes one shot if done right. Having a lot of ammo will only benefit if you plan on missing a lot. A missed bullet will hit somewhere and that is often someone. When someone is hit, someone shooting it will be arrested in most instances.

But before I expound on this, let me say a few things. I believe that the ability to carry a gun is the right of us all and should not overseen by a government. I know from what I have seen in my years of LEO and speaking on guns and politics at different functions that we, as gun owners, do our cause more harm when we act as we do, be it inadvertantly or intentional. I have talked to state legislators in Baton Rouge as gun bills came up for votes and I have sat watching them as they voted and met with them afterward to find why they voted that way. Some may not like what I say but it has been proven time and time again to be right by arrest, homicide and other crimes. I am not politically correct and do not say that people has to like or even understand what I say.

As with major auto crashes, I see more of them and hand gun incidents than a patrol officer since that is what I work with and travel the country getting out the root cause and other things. I do not arrest people. If you are not dead, seriously injured or invovled in a major court battle for some legal reason be it ciminal or civil, I will not be called in other than to advise the agency or such as to how to proceed.

I see guys that have to have a box of ammo on them and can offer at least 10 reasons for having it. Just last Wednesday I was in a restaurant eating a meal with an official from a deprtment in another state. In walks two white males (both appearing to be in their 30s) and before they sit down, they began pulling out their magazines from their pants pockets and laying them on the table. Imagine the impression that makes on others in the restaurant. These two guys did not need the ammo. They carry it for ego boost it gives them. Keeping it in their pockets does not show others they have it. They are like the hundreds of guys arrested in every CCW state each year for brandishing and other firearm violations. A popular blog being reviewed over the internet offers a great example of this and has been mentioned on this site. The guy did nothing wrong other than have more firepower than he needed, more ammo than he needed and all of it with him. Then he gets into a domestic situation and it cost him dearly. Had he had the basics, it is likely nothing would have been done. Had he not got into a domestic situation that drew attention, it is likely nothing would have been done.

While at it, let me ask you to look at the school shootings, the home grown terrorist arrests and other major firearm issues brought out in the media. The vast majority of them had warning flags that were ignored. They posted videos on line of their guns, shooting and such. They sought the attention to their guns by the amount of guns, ammo and such brought. Same with those armed to the hilt and carrying a lot of things that could lead to problems and unwanted attention of others. We bring the media attention to ourselves by our actions. Each time we do, it gives the anti gunners more fuel against us by public perception.

Various states, Louisiana being one of them, now requires a person applying or renewing a CCW to list ALL arrests and then furnish documentation from the court as to the disposition of the the arrest. This is not for a conviction, but just an arrest. Those wanting CC have their reasons but most of the time, they will not renew the permit because they get new interests, got some wisdom or got into trouble with it and can no longer qualify for one. A friend of mine falls into this bracket. A young man in law school, living off campus with his wife and loved sport shooting. His parents have a private gun range on their farm. He obtained a CCW, had it for three yrs, got into trouble for brandishing inside an area that was off limits to firearms. At the time, he had a .45 Officers model Colt (seized by the court) and six mags. He was drinking and showing it to his law school friends. Someone, it was never learned who, got concerned and called the police. He was arrested, charged, convicted and heavily fined. Now, 12 years later, he reapplied and after a lot of paperwork and cost, was re-issued a permit. He is older, wiser and mature. Now he carries a beautiful semi but the only ammo he carries is that in the gun. It is no longer a macho item for show. He does not need to show off, being a succesful attorney, nice home and family.

There are many women with CCW and the number grows each year. Many are young college age. Ever wondered why they do not get into legal gun troubles? They are not driven by what they see or the ego of guys. I have questioned guys prior to trial and their answers usually revolve around their ability to impress got them into trouble. Women carry for protection and do not do so for show.

I see a lot of shootings of innocent victims each year, many of which are just small children. These shootings are usually the result of improper training, improper gun storage or genuine stupidity. As many of us were growing up, we were taught to hunt, gun safety and such by our parents or relatives. Now the typical background of a shooting is someone bought a gun, left it laying around in sight so others would see it and be impressed but it was either stolen or located by a child or teen that created somehow a shooting.

Several states now require gun safety courses before certain people can get a hunting license. The reason: the youth is not being trained but rather have a itch to get a gun and shoot something.

Several hunters are on here and I mean real hunters with character, respect and wisdom. Many spend a lot of money on their sport and guns. Then they go into the woods to see some young guys with AK-47s with banana magazines claiming to be deer hunting or squirrel hunting. The guys are hunting but their guns are for show, their ammo for show and they achieve a large ego boost by having others see it.

Now I am not saying that carrying all the ammo is an ego trip for all that does it. Some are bad shots, some really feel the need and some just do it. But the problems doing so creates in public perception is what bothers me.

When I go to court on a firearm case, and most of the time, a plea bargain can be reached prior to court, the cases always contain the same basic facts. A person gets a gun, buys a lot of ammo, shoots it until the new wears off, applies for a CCW in many cases, carries a large amount of ammo, gets into some legal problem, has the gun and ammo seized, goes to jail, spends about $11,000 on a defense and has a 50/50 chance of still going to jail. Their interest in guns suddenly drops and the media makes a large story about what happened and riles the anti gunners in the area as well as those on the fence about their opinion on guns.

quote

quote
For that matter, on an individual level, having to fight for our life against a violent criminal is a low-probability event.
quote

You are right but the key word is violent criminal here. Many will be confronted by a drunken citizen, a teenage kid wanting to rob, a guy more wanting to rob than work for what he has, knowing the odds of arrest for personal robbery is less than a business robbery.


Quote
In my case, and I'm sure most would agree, I guess it's because I don't want to have to rely on anyone else for my safety. I don't want to be the guy screaming to the 911 operator and hoping that the cops show up on time (which is unlikely).

Quote

We agree on this. I think we agree on most of our opinions but I see things from a different angle and see the after effects as well as hear the public perception.

quote
I tend to train based on the idea that the bad guy is going to be a violent criminal with a history of similar acts, that he is going to be armed, and that he may very well have a buddy or two to back him up. I don't think this picture that I'm painting is unrealistic either.

quote

Actually it is more of a remote possibility than a broken magazine or firing pin.

You are more likely to be acosted by a druggie or a person looking for quick cash, transportation or such.

Career criminals with buddies are not wanting to bother with a charge of robbery of an individual where they get limited benefit. They was to make a large score. As to the buddy backup, if they have such, you will lose. They know what they are willing to do, how far they will go to reach their goal and they have the element of surprise over you. They are not restrained by honest intentions either such as you would be.



Quote:
I
Is it your intention to imply that carrying a spare mag is indicitive of poor shooting ability?

Quote

Pretty much so. Look at the greatly respected gun masters of the past, those that have lived their life with a gun on their side. They carried revolvers for the most part. What few understand, and supported by FBI stats, is the avg gunfight last less than 12 seconds, has less than five shots fired and is between two people. A real criminal is not going to sit around in a shootout that would allow more time for the cops to arrive or attract more attention that would give more witnesses. One large capacity mag is enough for 99.999% of the incidents, including on duty LEO. Anything else is for personal reasons, be it ego, insecurities or personal doubt.


Quote
Concealed means just that, concealed.

quote

Again we agree. Yet in over half the cases a professional cal spot a concealed carry. Smaller weapons and baggy pants make it more difficult but there are things that will give it away. How do you think police find the felons in possession of a firearm? They do not search everyone they see. They spot them walking the street.

As to your LEO buddies, I bet they are not walking off duty with the same amount of gear they do when working.

I would also like to offer an apology for my ignorance in posting quotes. I will attempt to do better in the future. Nothing I say is in disrespect toward anyone and is written for personal thought by the readers. What I write is from experiences that most will never have the opportunity to go through. I make my living trying to help the legal community in prosecution, defense or presentation for edification of the jury that will ultimately judge us. My expertise comes at a price but is often vital to assure proper justice is served. Additionally it comes at a high price for my family in that they have to live with the things I see and then bring home to them in the hopes of keeping them from making the mistakes of others. My children grew up in a strict home and were not allowed to do the things most did as they matured. It must have worked since none got into trouble and became successful adults that contribute in a positive way to the community.

Last edited by oldman1946; December 13, 2009 at 08:31 AM.
oldman1946 is offline  
Old December 13, 2009, 09:26 AM   #66
KenpoTex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2009
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman1946
It only takes one shot if done right. Having a lot of ammo will only benefit if you plan on missing a lot.
No, having a lot of ammo will benefit me if I need to shoot a lot. Let's say I find myself in a situation that requires me to shoot someone. I put a few rounds into their high-center chest or ocular-nasal cavity and they drop or otherwise stop doing whatever they were doing that made me shoot them. I'm not going to fire the rest of the mag just because I have it. However, I'd much rather have it than not in the event that I am dealing with a situation that requires more than 3-5 rounds (or whatever the "average gunfight" requires).


Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman1946
I see guys that have to have a box of ammo on them and can offer at least 10 reasons for having it. Just last Wednesday I was in a restaurant eating a meal with an official from a deprtment in another state. In walks two white males (both appearing to be in their 30s) and before they sit down, they began pulling out their magazines from their pants pockets and laying them on the table. Imagine the impression that makes on others in the restaurant.

A young man in law school, living off campus with his wife and loved sport shooting.
...He obtained a CCW, had it for three yrs, got into trouble for brandishing inside an area that was off limits to firearms. At the time, he had a .45 Officers model Colt (seized by the court) and six mags. He was drinking and showing it to his law school friends. Someone, it was never learned who, got concerned and called the police. He was arrested, charged, convicted and heavily fined.
...Now he carries a beautiful semi but the only ammo he carries is that in the gun. It is no longer a macho item for show. He does not need to show off, being a succesful attorney, nice home and family.
Okay, in the first situation (the guys in the restaurant), they sound like idiots.

In the second situation (the law-student), once again, idiot. I don't see how his choice of equipment had anything to do with the consequences. You said yourself that he was in a location where guns were prohibited. On top of that, he was under the influence of alcohol. In that situation, I fail to see how it matters what type of gun he had. Regardless of whether it was a 2-shot derringer and no extra ammo, or the weapon and mags that he did have. The issue was the fact that he was brandishing a gun at all, not the fact that he had that many extra mags.

I believe, like you, that we all have the right to protect ourselves. However, I will freely acknowledge that there are people who should not be carrying a gun. For that matter, there are people that shouldn't be driving, and people that shouldn't be reproducing.
However, I think you're painting with too broad of a brush. There are plenty of people out there carrying extra ammo or other equipment who are perfectly responsible, stable individuals. On the other hand, I'm sure there are plenty of the "no extra mag" or "snubby and no reload" crowd who are absolute morons just like the people you mentioned above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman1946
Now I am not saying that carrying all the ammo is an ego trip for all that does it. Some are bad shots, some really feel the need and some just do it. But the problems doing so creates in public perception is what bothers me.
You're not saying it's an ego trip for all but later in your post you said:
Quote:
"One large capacity mag is enough for 99.999% of the incidents, including on duty LEO. Anything else is for personal reasons, be it ego, insecurities or personal doubt."
Ego, insecurities, or personal doubt...okay. I don't even know how to address this as it seems like this is a major hang-up for you. I don't even see that as a rational argument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman1946
You are right but the key word is violent criminal here. Many will be confronted by a drunken citizen, a teenage kid wanting to rob, a guy more wanting to rob than work for what he has, knowing the odds of arrest for personal robbery is less than a business robbery.

...You are more likely to be acosted by a druggie or a person looking for quick cash, transportation or such.
Okay, and as I said, by training to deal with the "worst case," it [theoretically] will be easier to deal with a "lesser" threat. There are plenty of stories out there of true bad guys...the guy who just got out of prison with a rap-sheet as long as his arm, etc.
That aside, a guy holding a gun or a knife is a serious threat regardless of whether it's his first such crime or his 100th.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman1946
Career criminals with buddies are not wanting to bother with a charge of robbery of an individual where they get limited benefit. They was to make a large score. As to the buddy backup, if they have such, you will lose. They know what they are willing to do, how far they will go to reach their goal and they have the element of surprise over you. They are not restrained by honest intentions either such as you would be.
There are plenty of people who have survived fights against multiple assailants. Lance Thomas (the jeweler from LA) is a great example off the top of my head.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman1946
As to your LEO buddies, I bet they are not walking off duty with the same amount of gear they do when working.
Well, minus the body-armor and job-specific stuff (radio, etc.), many of them do. They still carry their primary and backup guns, spare mag, knife/knives, and OC.
KenpoTex is offline  
Old December 13, 2009, 10:01 AM   #67
oldman1946
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 111
Quote:
Okay, in the first situation (the guys in the restaurant), they sound like idiots.

In the second situation (the law-student), once again, idiot. I don't see how his choice of equipment had anything to do with the consequences. You said yourself that he was in a location where guns were prohibited. On top of that, he was under the influence of alcohol. In that situation, I fail to see how it matters what type of gun he had. Regardless of whether it was a 2-shot derringer and no extra ammo, or the weapon and mags that he did have. The issue was the fact that he was brandishing a gun at all, not the fact that he had that many extra mags.
Look back at some of the people you know and as I have done stupid things with a concealed weapon. But this is part of my issues. Those arrested, and there are many legal articles on the matter, generally have more ammo on them than ever needed. Google something like avg gun fight stats and read all the articles.

Many years ago a revolver with maybe six shots and a single speed loader was all anyone carried. Then the advent of high capacity semi auto came into play. Gangbangers and other perps began using them. LE began to feel outgunned. Public perception began to build due to Hollywood. Suddenly we have people carrying 50 or more rounds. Not only do they carry but they also show it.

Again we go back to females carry the gun and that is all. Males are armed to the hilt and they are the ones making the news.
oldman1946 is offline  
Old December 13, 2009, 11:34 AM   #68
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,950
I agree entirely with Oldman's admonition that spraying a fusillade of poorly aimed shots is a very, very bad idea.

I also tend to agree with his concern about an adverse public perception in the event that someone who is 'armed to the teeth' ends up involved in shooting incident. There was a recent report of a law school mock jury discussion that indicated that "mean guns" (my terminology) can help lead to an unfavorable verdict for a shooter.

For that reason and for reasons having to due with concealment, I do not have and will not buy one of the "17+1" pistols advertised today.

However, I am not convinced that one shot, or even five, will necessarily suffice. The instructors I know and read recommend two shots in succession and then a quick evaluation. Multiply that by two assailants (a reasonably likely scenario around here, it seems), and the wisdom of having more ammunition becomes evident to me.

When I carry a five shot revolver, I have a speed loader and speed strip in my car. I may or may not slip the latter into my pocket. Depends on where I am and how far I'm going.

When I carry a compact 9MM, it has a capacity of 12+1. I carry it with ten rounds total (9+1). Personal choice. That should give me an ample reserve, I think, but there's usually a spare mag in the car. I do not expect to ever use it.

When the holster arrives for my reduced size 1911, I think I'll probably carry one extra magazine in a holder. Ego or bravado? No, just my personal risk assessment.

I do stay away from rough neighborhoods, and that unfortunately keeps us out of some restaurants and shops we used to like to frequent.

One of the risks around here is that we border on two sides with meth country, with two interstate highways bringing in the users and the dealers and the makers, and LEO friends tell me that those folks are often desperate, violent, and sometimes largely unaffected by either fear or pain. When I was a kid, the police carried .38 Colt or Smith revolvers and some extra ammo. Some four decades ago, a shotgun was added. Now they carry large capacity .40 caliber semi-autos, a taser, and in the patrol car, a shotgun, and an AR-15. Special units also have long range rifles and machine pistols.

I don't need all that, but it gives an idea about the environment today.

Last edited by OldMarksman; December 13, 2009 at 11:36 AM. Reason: typo
OldMarksman is offline  
Old December 13, 2009, 07:06 PM   #69
oldman1946
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 111
QUOTE] I agree entirely with Oldman's admonition that spraying a fusillade of poorly aimed shots is a very, very bad idea.

I also tend to agree with his concern about an adverse public perception in the event that someone who is 'armed to the teeth' ends up involved in shooting incident. There was a recent report of a law school mock jury discussion that indicated that "mean guns" (my terminology) can help lead to an unfavorable verdict for a shooter.

For that reason and for reasons having to due with concealment, I do not have and will not buy one of the "17+1" pistols advertised today.

However, I am not convinced that one shot, or even five, will necessarily suffice. The instructors I know and read recommend two shots in succession and then a quick evaluation. Multiply that by two assailants (a reasonably likely scenario around here, it seems), and the wisdom of having more ammunition becomes evident to me.

When I carry a five shot revolver, I have a speed loader and speed strip in my car. I may or may not slip the latter into my pocket. Depends on where I am and how far I'm going.

[/QUOTE]

All someone has to do is check the FBI stats and see that a running shootout just does not happen. If an innocent is struck, the shooter is going to be charged. If a person is able to secure cover and concealment and a trial ensues over the altercation, then there will be another issue about retreat. The law provides for the lack of retreat in a home or business but not the outdoor public area.

I agree with virtually everyone here about being able to own any type gun. I disagree with the CCW system and feel it is not Constitutional. Every law abiding citizen should be able to carry, open or concealed.

I own a lot of guns, many of which I had to buy to learn about the model before a trial. Some others have been given to me and I buy a few each year out of desire. I have cases of ammo in my gun room. The government does not have the right to tell me what I can and cannot own as long as it is legal.

However, there is some rumblings about cutting back on the availability of ammo. Some others, including some on the advisory staff of the President, wants to put serial numbers on ammo and tax it highly. The Second Amendment does not say we have the right to ammo. When people started to get concerned about capacity in guns, the number of shots began to increase. The avg shooting was less than 5 shots and now is is right at 8 shots. Have a person in a mass shooting and the media plays up how much ammo the perp had, how many shots his firearm held and many other things. Each time it happens, public support goes a little south and legislative action begins, even though it is knee jerk reaction.

I carry a Glock 22 with a 15 round mag daily. I would rather carry a S&W .357 that holds six shots. It is more accurate and more versatile. Yet I do as told. I do have a spare magazine beside a full box of ammo in the trunk of my car. In 38 yrs of carry, serving warrants, visiting crime scenes and going into questionable areas to look for or question people, I have been in three shoot outs where I had to pull and fire. I never got over 3 shots fired.

This Tuesday I will be on a motorized indoor range. I will go through over 100 rounds and I will use five mags in doing so. But shooting paper is a lot different from shooting moving targets that shoot back and actually fired the first shot.

But look at the type that carries a Mac 10 or the Pup. I seriously doubt any on here would be using one of those as a concealed weapon for daily carry. Just as people tend to emulate Hollywood on many things, the high capacity mags took the place of controlled accuracy.

I have the transcripts of where a person took hostages and ended up shooting three people before taking his own life. He fired four bullets and took out four people. Yet the group of SWAT members, patrol officers, state troopers and Sheriff's deputies fired over 1,200 rounds at the guy and never hit him once. He was using a revolver, they were using high capacity mags. As I say, it has become a trade off, accuracy for capacity. As Jeff Cooper once said, a high capacity gun is fine for those that plan to miss a lot.

I learned a long time ago to not try to talk common sense to people about guns, drug use or customized vehicles. People have blasted me about saying drug use should carry heavy penalities. It is against the law to buy, sell or possess drugs but not to use them. Lets put the users in jail. It is against the law to even change tire sizes on a car or truck in many states without having it approved on paper (it changes the weight per sq in braking, steering and cornering) as it is making a modification that can make a person liable in the event of an accident ( I testify to this type almost weekly). I get blasted about that as well.

My daddy said that a bit dog will holler the loudest. Mention the potential for pray and spray over accuracy and people will shoot the messenger.
oldman1946 is offline  
Old December 13, 2009, 08:55 PM   #70
VHinch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2002
Location: Northeast Georgia
Posts: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by troy_mclure
but seriously where do all you guys carry this stuff? do you have the bat belt or something? a 21L fanny pack? 5.1 khakis with a special pocket for everything?


1911 - IWB at 4:00
Spare magazine - OWB at 8:00
J frame - left ankle or left front pocket
SOG Flash - right front pocket
SOG Trident - left front pocket
Wallet - left rear pocket
Keys - left front pocket
Phone - On belt at 3:00
I also add a light horizontally on the belt at about 10:00 if late in the day.

I carry this rig 12-16 hours a day with no issues. My typical dress including at the office is generally jeans and an untucked polo shirt.

Is it overkill? Maybe, but I have been in the unfortunate position of having to use a weapon defensively, and that tends to change your perspective about preparedness.
__________________
“High speed isn't about gun, gear or tactics. High speed is executing the basics perfectly no matter what, cold, wet, day, night, tired. That’s high speed."
-Paul Howe
VHinch is offline  
Old December 13, 2009, 09:21 PM   #71
oldman1946
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 111
I have to say I sure like the looks of the 1911. It would be a nice addition to anyone's collection
oldman1946 is offline  
Old December 13, 2009, 11:03 PM   #72
ClayInTx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,066
Oldman1946,

You seem to have experience in dealing with cases where an actual firing of guns was involved.

Question, please:

In those cases where a civilian CCW fired a gun what was the typical distance between CCW and the Bad Guy?

Thanks,
Clay
ClayInTx is offline  
Old December 14, 2009, 06:10 AM   #73
oldman1946
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 111
Quote:
You seem to have experience in dealing with cases where an actual firing of guns was involved.

Question, please:

In those cases where a civilian CCW fired a gun what was the typical distance between CCW and the Bad Guy?
Nothing is typical with firearm cases. Seldom is the exact location of the shooter or victim known but we can get within a few feet. Often the shooter will either not remember exactly where they were or the victim will run off after being hit to fall later.

Generally I would say most shootings I have seen was from less than 25 feet, mostly outdoors and in low light conditions.

With the help of the LA State Police and their perfect record keeping, I am currently working on some CCW stats (for Louisiana only) that has shocked me with just what I have learned so far.

Firearm cases is a minor part of my work since most death and serious injury occurrs in auto accidents. Louisiana happens to have a high rate of shootings by both CCW holders and non holders. Being an expert in crime scene reconstruction, I get to see a lot of those at some point in time. Mostly I see them when they are headed for court and my expertise is needed. That is when I get to review the finding of the investigating agency, interview any witnesses, look at the medical reports, examine the pre-incident movements of both. More can be learned long after the incident than can be immediately afterward since medical reports are available, lab exams have been done. The big thing is the emotions of witnesses have settled and they can recall more.

But it is ironic that this question was asked. During the late evening hours yesterday, a man showed up at a local service station. He had been shot while in his car. His passenger was uninjured. There was only one bullet entry into the car and that was at the driver window and that one projectile struck the driver in the shoulder. Not that unusual in it's self but neither occupant in the car knows where the bullet came from or where on the freeway they were when it happened. So the police are looking for a shooter, a crime scene and a motive. At this time, all they have is a victim. I am glad it is not something I would have to figure out.

Last edited by oldman1946; December 14, 2009 at 07:31 AM.
oldman1946 is offline  
Old December 14, 2009, 09:43 AM   #74
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,755
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman1946
Nothing is typical with firearm cases. Seldom is the exact location of the shooter or victim known but we can get within a few feet. Often the shooter will either not remember exactly where they were or the victim will run off after being hit to fall later.

Generally I would say most shootings I have seen was from less than 25 feet, mostly outdoors and in low light conditions.
According to the Armed Citizen five year analysis of 452 incidents, 84% of incidents occur at home or in a business and the typical distance is "short but in excess of touching distance"

It's well worth a read:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=328876
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is online now  
Old December 14, 2009, 10:01 AM   #75
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,950
Quote:
All someone has to do is check the FBI stats and see that a running shootout just does not happen.
I'm not sure what that has to do with the question. If you are attacked by someone and deadly force is immediately necessary, multiple hits may be required to stop him. Multiply that by the number of attackers. Many incidents around my area involve perps who work in pairs.

Quote:
If an innocent is struck, the shooter is going to be charged.
Are you saying that where you live, the mere fact of an unintended injury provides an assumption of probable cause that the action was criminally negligent? Of course, charged and convicted are two different things.

The possibility of charges is but one reason to not fire unaimed shots; there is also the issue of civil liability; and of course, just plain responsible conduct....

Quote:
If a person is able to secure cover and concealment and a trial ensues over the altercation, then there will be another issue about retreat.
It's always a good idea to try to get behind something solid...and a good idea to get away from the action if you can do it.

Quote:
The law provides for the lack of retreat in a home or business but not the outdoor public area.
That varies according to jurisdiction; in many places, retreat is required if it is safely possible; and I'll contend that if it is, it is always a good idea, regardless of the law.

Where I live, retreat is required outside of one's domicile or automobile if it is safely possible, though that requirement is not spelled out in the statute.

That's not true in Florida, Texas, or a number of other states. The laws there say that retreat is not required if a person is where he or she has a legal right to be.

In my case, if I am accompanied by my spouse, it is most unlikely that retreat would be safely possible.
OldMarksman is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.18197 seconds with 8 queries