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Old December 5, 2009, 09:48 PM   #1
Beentown71
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New security system...need training

Well I just had a visit from Santa and he delivered my girls an early present. Our first line of security after the motion sensor lights.



Now I need to get him trained. Any recommendations? I can train a dog to be a good pet and companion but I have never given them any kind of guard training. Is a dog that is trained to guard be as good of a companion?

I might just be happy to get him to announce visitors and "greet" them at the door.

Thanks in advance,

Beentown
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Old December 5, 2009, 10:05 PM   #2
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http://www.amazon.com/Koehler-Method...0068663&sr=8-1
not everyone will agree to this, but whatever. I have this book. The regular dog training and guard dog training. I haven't done the guard dog training yet, or don't know if I will, but i will say this much. IT WORKS
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Old December 5, 2009, 11:02 PM   #3
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Thanks KYO. Anyone else?

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Old December 6, 2009, 08:24 AM   #4
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Cute puppy!

All of our dogs (5 of them!) are pets and that is all we expect from them. Pretty much they will announce visitors (if they are awake or not out in the back yard - 2 acres - chasing rabbits) and then I take over in terms of the next course of action.

A true guard dog, one that is professionally and specifically trained for that purpose, is not a pet. Just like hunting dogs, they have a job and that is what they live for. I remember my late father-in-laws beagles. They lived outdoors in their dog houses in a pen. They were never allowed in the house and only ate dog food. He never took them for walks. He was usually quite successful on his hunting expeditions!

I would suggest a guard dog for someone who may not be capable of handling a firearm for defense and protection, but if you are capable, just do some basic obedience training and enjoy your companion!

Scott
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Old December 6, 2009, 07:17 PM   #5
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Thank you, Kyo, . . . my wife and I are retired, . . . have some time now to devote to such a project, . . . and I have been looking around for something like this. It looks like it may be just what I wanted.

We want to get another dog in the not too distant future, one which will be my outdoor companion, as well as the 4 legged alarm system.

I have read accounts from LEO's who have kept older K9's as pets and they work out well as both work dogs and companions, . . . while mine would never ascend to K9 status, . . . I still want something more than just a family pet.

May God bless,
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Old December 6, 2009, 07:54 PM   #6
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Great looking pup!

I have two, (lab and pit), both have been allowed to raise Holy Heck whenever someone comes to the door. They now see it as their job to alert me whenever someone steps into the yard.

It is quite effective to hear them barking. The FedEx ground guy will wait for me at the curb.
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Old December 6, 2009, 08:06 PM   #7
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Quote:
A true guard dog, one that is professionally and specifically trained for that purpose, is not a pet.
Folks, heed those words well. I remember all too well the words of a friend and K-9 officer from a neighboring department: "Having an attack trained dog around your family is like having a loaded gun with a mind of its own". Several months after he told me that, he was attacked by his own dog (and yes, both he and the dog were professionally trained, and the dog came from a very reputable breeder/trainer.)

Quote:
I have read accounts from LEO's who have kept older K9's as pets and they work out well as both work dogs and companions, . . .
Agreed Dwight, it can sometimes work out. In fact, my very first dog was a German Shepherd retired from the military, and she was as gentle as a kitten, but these dogs aren't for everyone.

But I have to ask, given the potential and capability of an attack trained dog, do you really want to take that chance with your wife & kids?

I really think that, depending on the breed, any dog worth his salt will naturally defend his "pack" and turf. It's simply in their nature. Aggression training though, takes them far beyond that.
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Old December 6, 2009, 08:26 PM   #8
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Re read the previous post by Capt Charlie and then READ IT AGAIN!

I have produced many WATCHdogs (who are alert and will alert me to the presence of others) but I have not and will not ever try and produce a GUARDdog (which specializes in aggression towards intruders).

GUARD dogs are NOT PETS!

Having said that, what a cute pup!
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Old December 6, 2009, 09:36 PM   #9
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In a perfect world I would like to have the companion with "Guard" dog capabilities. Sounds like that really isn't a possibility most of the time.

I had a Shephard that was on yellow alert when out but a lap dog at home. Somebody unfamiliar would get close and she was polite but very mindful. We had a break in from a person we know...she bit at the person until I had him pinned to the floor. She then proceeded to hide behind me

She was a special dog and I don't think that I can really expect that most of the time. She was hit by a car last year driving down our oil well lane...

I think this one will get the training of companion/family/woods dog and then see how he does naturally.

Thanks for the advice,

Beentown
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Old December 6, 2009, 11:11 PM   #10
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Well i thought I had posted but something must have failed...

Yes a dog that is properly trained and exercised (working dogs need tons of exercise to avoid pent up energy spikes) is an absolutely trust worthy companion with the abilities to be "turned on and off" like a switch.

Schutzen [sp] is one term for one venue and PPW (personal Protection work) is either the same game with different name or a different game with different rules but both use "dummies" in bite suits/sleeves to train and compete.

I am getting in touch with a few folks in the PPW world and get the names of clubs and groups for you to look into. The dog needn't be a super bad huge "man dog" breed. I have seen some super mid size "stock dog" types make some mastiffs and such look like sorry excuses for a dog. Most of my friends have bulldogs... pits, american bulldogs, bull terriers and crosses. These dogs are all 100% family friendly.

Unlike a family pet, these dogs can be sent to attack where a pet usually needs to see you physically threatened before they go 100% on the aggressor. At that point, you are not 100% the pet won't turn tail and run... Also, one the threat is no longer, you may not be able to easily get your pet to stop whereas the trained PPW dog had better "stop sit stay" on command...
I will get info to you when I have it...
Brent
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Old December 7, 2009, 01:02 AM   #11
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My Grandfather bred Rottweilers for years, and he always cautioned buyer to not get them Guard-Trained.

He got into it to get Guard Dogs for the Self-Storage Business he has, so he wanted a Breed that is big enough to make people think twice before breaking in to the place.

He also wanted a Breed that would be good around children since all of us grandkids would come around a lot everyone kept telling him to get Rottweilers.

He had and sold over 1000 of them when he was doing it, he had a couple sold to be police dogs, and a few sold to be trained Guard Dogs, but most were just pets.

I know one of his dogs, named Vito, was sold as a Guard Dog for a security company. He was I think they called it "Fence Trained" so that he would bark, and growl, and charge at the fence acting like he would tear off any body part you got too close, but had no aggression at all on a leash.

Also if he knew you he was fine, he was one of "My Pups" (all us grandkids picked a pup from each litter to be "Our Pup" named him and took care of him till he was sold) before he was sold to be a guard dog.

He was gone about 3 years before the buyer's insurance decided having guard dogs was too risky, so he came back to my Grandfather who took the precaution of putting Vito in a pen that had solid walls instead of chainlink to keep him from scaring the customers looking to buy a dog.

He'd still "Attack" the gate which was chainlink if you got too close, but the walls kept him from noticing people at a distance. In any case my grandfather and I were the only two who were allowed by Vito to reach through the fence to pet him, he'd still do his trained response when we approached the fence, until he heard, smelled , or saw us, then he'd calm down and be fine.

Again not sure how that training would work in your case, but maybe if you can train him to Alert you whenever somebody gets too close?
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Old December 7, 2009, 02:04 AM   #12
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While I was in college I trained guard dogs for a company that rented them out and sold some for personal guard dogs. To train a guard dog is an intensive course that takes weeks. It is intensive for the handler and the dog. When you are finished you may have a great guard dog, a mediocre guard dog, or a failed guard dog. You may have a friend, a companion who will always follow your lead, or a superbly trained professional who will work with any trained handler. You will NOT have a family pet.

If you have youngsters in the house, make a pet out of the puppy. You may want to give him obedience training, but don't go too far with it. A good pet dog is an individual, and should be allowed to be an individual. Establish a great relationship with him and enjoy it for as long as he lives. You will be the richer for it, and your kids will never forget their childhood pet.

Security is a frame of mind, not a weapon system. Children should be raised in an atmosphere of love and respect for others. Not an atmosphere of fear.

Be vigilant, protect your family, but relax, the WHOLE world is not out to get you.
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Old December 7, 2009, 02:33 AM   #13
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That puppy looks like a Golden Retriever or Golden Retriever mix -- am I right? If so, the breed temperament is usually much better suited to family pet than guard dog. Which (from what everyone here has said) is all to the good. :-) I've been around some trained guard dogs. They were intense animals, wonderful dogs in some ways but I would not have *ever* wanted one living in a house with children 24/7.

A watch dog, on the other hand, can easily be combined with a family pet. His job is simply to notice when strangers come over and bark to let you know. I've had dogs that did that just fine with no training whatsoever. :-)
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Old December 7, 2009, 04:05 AM   #14
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He may not need much training to greet visitors

Hi,
I have a German Shepherd and a Labrador.

Both are trained for obedience, and "self-trained" to make a racket whenever any strangers are anywhere near my fence. Dogs have this tendency, which I think many people "squash" at a young age by reprimanding the dogs and ordering them to hush and be quiet.

They are not aggressive and are very good with kids, but they put a fierce appearance when they are "greeting" strangers. by doing that they alert us to the presence of people nearby.

With time one actually notices that the pitch and type of barkig they use for greeting other dogs is different from what they use to announce the presence of people.

Brgds,

Danny
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Old December 7, 2009, 07:41 AM   #15
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I have family members working with secret service k9. Here's my take, being a huge dog lover and multidog owner. A true gaurd dog isn't a pet, at all. And the comment early about the loaded gun with a mind of it own is true. Ice seen government trained k9s bite a handler. Training your dog to bark at the door or the mailman is totally different from a attack/gaurd dog. A family pet can easily bark at the door and alert, but take down no way. The retrever will have a nice deep bark, and will alert at the door. That's about it for a true TRUSTABLE family dog. Trust is key.
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Old December 7, 2009, 01:35 PM   #16
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Thanks all. As I mentioned before I am going the route of family pet/companion with the training/expectation of barking at strangers at the property line or door.

Quote:
Quote from MacGille
Be vigilant, protect your family, but relax, the WHOLE world is not out to get you.
Never thought the WHOLE world was out to get me. Just like having a dog as a layer of alert/protection for the family. Plus, I need someone to ride around with me while I check trail cams and move stands .

Beentown

And yes he is a Golden Retriever.
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Old December 7, 2009, 01:43 PM   #17
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A kennel & The Dog Whisperer

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Old December 7, 2009, 02:53 PM   #18
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Kennel training has started.

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Old December 7, 2009, 04:50 PM   #19
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The best investment I've ever made is obedience training

Years ago I had a German Shepherd and Siberian Husky mix "puppy" given to me. At 6 months of age and 45 pounds he was a terror on a leash. Any time my wife and I would take him out, we were tangled in his leash in a few seconds. The dog was totally out of control.

So, I went to a trainer and spent good money to have him trained. The trainer and I talked about attack, deterrence, and obedience training. As for attack training, the "gun with a mind of its own" was pretty accurate. I would prefer a gun under my absolute control. As for deterrence training, the trainer said "That is like pointing an empty gun. If you have the dog growl at a person, and the person doesn't back down, then what?" So, the choice was a three week course of obedience and voice command training. The trainer worked with the dog an hour or so every day at his kennel. My wife and I showed up every Monday for an hour of instruction on how to handle the dog. Actually, the trainer was training us! This training of us was necessary as it is important that you and your family members be the Alpha in relation to the dog. This is especially important for children.

After that the dog was a joy, under strict voice and leash command. We used the obedience training to expand the dogs capability so that all commands were known in English, Spanish, and by hand signal. Imagine telling you dog to lie down and stay by hand signal without interrupting your conversation with another person! That was the level of training this dog had.

Just to let you know, the dog was black with a white underbelly. His eyebrows were brown and his teeth were whiter than a Hollywood Star’s. A very intimidating dog by the way he looked. He was 27 inches tall at the shoulder and weighed 75 pounds of which 5 full pounds were fur (yes, I weighed him before and after a summer “shaving” and he literally lost 5 pounds of fur).

The only people that would venture across my fence line were a five year old kid from down the street that loved to wrestle with the dog. The kid never got a scratch but would get pinned down and licked very sloppily by the dog. The other ones that ventured inside the fence line were Baptists coming by for their Wednesday night neighborhood canvassing. However, nobody knocked on the door unannounced as the dog would announce their arrival. The dog would stop barking on voice command. Unless of course it was the middle of the night and a skunk or cat was prowling around!

Two interesting events occurred in the dog’s life. One night, I noticed some teenagers trying to steal the hubcaps from my car. The dog had not alerted since this was outside his fence line. However, upon seeing the kids, I bolted out the door, release the dog and opened the gate and told the dog to “Get them!” The kids had already bolted when I came out the door so the dog was 50 yards behind. When the dog was almost to them, I called him off and he happily returned. A good thing too, since those kids would have been licked all over their faces had the dog caught them. “Get them” was his command to play with somebody.

The second event was a surprise to me. I was walking the dog along a highway. As was usual the dog was at heel on my left side and not on his leash. Since he was under voice control a leash was not needed although I always carried it with me just in case. Anyway, a seedy looking character was coming in the opposite direction towards me. I was a bit apprehensive and the dog must have picked up on this. When the guy was about 30 yards away the dog lowered his head, raised his hackles, and gave a deep menacing growl that I had never heard from him before. The person walking towards us immediately crossed the highway not wanting to see if the dog was serious. All the while the dog maintained a perfect heel and once the person crossed the highway went back to his normal, loveable self. I do not doubt that the dog would have violently defended me if necessary. Fortunately I never had to find out. I felt nearly as secure with that dog at my side as I would with a firearm in my hands.

All this to say, get your pet obedience trained and under voice control even at a high cost. Leave this to professionals as it really is not a do it yourself proposition. This will make your puppy a fantastic family pet that will want to protect the pack when it is challenged, yet will shut up when you tell it to stop barking.
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Old December 7, 2009, 05:09 PM   #20
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I believe I can get the dog voice trained myself. I have done it with others. If it becomes an issue then I will escalate it to the pros.

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Old December 7, 2009, 05:42 PM   #21
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If only I had the consistancy...

My problem is actually spending a consistent hour of uninterrupted training every day with a dog for serious training. As a result, my three small yappers don't know the meaning of "enough" when announcing that the neighbor six houses away just got home.

On the other hand, when my daughter's boyfriend is in the house, he cannot move from wherever he is sitting without the pack (Westie, Yorkie, and Dachshund) telling me he is moving. Now if they would only shut up after I acknowledge their alert…

Let us know how the training goes!
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Old December 7, 2009, 06:16 PM   #22
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Will do. He does seem to have a strong will.... It is hard to find that fine line between being strict and mean.

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Old December 7, 2009, 08:35 PM   #23
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You can train a watch dog on your own fairly easily. A guard dog will require the help of experienced trainers. If it is something you are interested in, don't let the opinions of those on a gun forum deter you, talk to experienced professionals. Look into Shutzhund, it is a sport that encompasses more than just protection work (obedience and tracking) and there may well be a Schutzhund club near you. If you can find a club nearby, go talk to the members and watch the training. If you can't, there are numerous forums online where you can talk to peope who know first hand, not from a friend, or friend of a friend, or who have stories of the occasional K9 that has snapped on it's handler. All dogs can bite under various circumstances. A well trained Shutzhund dog is far less likely to snap than your average "pet".

I would have thought on a gun forum people would be a little less closed minded about it. I can point you in the direction of a particular site/forum where you can get useful information from people who know (ie who have TITLED Shutzhund dogs who are also Canine Good Citizen certified [through the AKC] and are family pets) if you would like, just PM me.
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Old December 7, 2009, 08:44 PM   #24
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Also, not all dog trainers are created equal. I would not go to an obedience trainer and ask about Shutzhund/guard/protection/attack dog training. Few will likely have any experience with it, yet many will likely have an opinion.
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Old December 7, 2009, 09:28 PM   #25
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Been, The 2 affairs I mention are to be considered a sport... beneficial to the family for dog ability and confidence to the dog...

Far different from a "trained guard dog"... but in a way, quite the dog just the same. No different from fetch, or soft mouthing a bird on the way back. The pitbulls and other bulldogs I know that do this also entertain grandkids of all ages as well as weight pulling, show ring and some even are tasked with clamping down a hog's ear in the field. Dogs really impress me with their ability to separate various tasks and commands.

I failed to make contact with any of my friends who could give me names and tomorrow I will be busy...

Brent
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