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Old December 4, 2009, 02:08 AM   #1
Glenn Dee
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Combat Reload

I was taught to reload my revolver under combat conditions. The procedure is simple.

watch your adversary, dont look at your gun. Break open the cylinder with your weak hand, keeping your weak thumb on top of a chamber. At the same time draw speedloader with strong hand placing strong index finger atop a round in the speedloader. Hold the speedloafer between your strong thumb, and middle finger. Line up your weak thumb, and strong index finger, The rounds will line up with the cylinder. Twist the speed loader knob with strong thumb and middle finger. Its OK to glance down once, but the Idea is to keep your adersary in sight.

After practicing with my eyes closed for for a couple of days It's become second nature. But It does require you develop some muscle memory.

Although the technique is simple it was developed as a result of a young police Officer named Scott Godell losing his life in a protracted shooting. If any of you see fit to try it and /or pass it on to someone else Do the right thing and mention Scott. Kind of so he didnt die in vain.

Thanks
Glenn Dee.



I understand that most people carry autoloaders now. I was taught to Again keep your eyes on your adversary. Strong hand release you empty magazine, allow it to fall on the ground. Weak hand draw spare magazine with index finger laying on the front of the magazine. With weak hand point to mag-well of pistol and insert the magazinne.Point pistol at threat, and weak hand grasp slide. Push pistol forward, overcoming grip on slide. Slide will release and close, chambering a round using maximum spring tension.

With a little practice this can be done realy, realy realy fast.

practice with both techniques requires the use of live ammo. Probably better done at the range. So... when I go to the range I practice combat reloads as well as life firing... in most drills I do both.

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Old December 4, 2009, 04:33 AM   #2
Dannyl
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You must try it aafter firing all the bullets

Hi,
I shoot Bowling pins and we have a class where you have a compulsory reload ( 8 targets and 6 bullets in the cylinder, so you have to reload no matter what).

My revolver is a S&W 586, and I use Massad Ayoob's technique as explained in illustrated in his book "Stress Fire"

Whatever technique you use, you must test it by reloading after firing all the chambers, in many guns the empty cases do not eject as easily after firing, so if you only practice with a clean cylinder and unfired cases / dummies you may find that your revolver acts differently when you reload after firing it.

If you want to get an extract from this book I can email it to you, just PM me and give me your email address.

Brgds,
Danny
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Old December 4, 2009, 07:29 AM   #3
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Bring it in

Was taught same methods as described above, with the added muscle memory ingrained in us to "bring the weapon in close to you" while working the action, clearing a malfunction or simply reloading. Too many times I see the general public or even some fellow LEOs reloading or something with their arms fully outstretched, gun far away from the body. If it works, it works. But for me, I bring it in, its easier to manipulate. In either case, get that decent muscle memory and you'll be able to keep a better eye on the threat.
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Old December 4, 2009, 09:28 AM   #4
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This is the start of what should be an excellent thread. We all read the this caliber vs that caliber stuff and how many rounds do you carry for your CCW gun threads. While it all makes for interesting reading, the truth of the matter is that we all carry whatever caliber works for us. Further, we all carry the number of rounds, magazines, speedloaders, that are within our comfort level.

I would venture to say that it is a pretty fair statement that most of us CCW to defend ourselves, loved ones, etc. Given: we are of a defensive and not offensive nature as civilian CCW permit holders. We all hope that we can go thru our lives without ever having to take our gun out because we need to. Yet, we go to the range on a regular basis to maintain/improve our shooting skills, and, because it is a fun thing to do. (If you do not, then you really should. Because you were pretty good with a pistol 20 years ago doesn't mean you have maintained a level of competency today.) What I recommend a student do, once the shooting skills are competent enough to go on, is to practice speed reloading for the revolver fans and emergency and tactical reloads for the semi-auto fans.

At the range, we all try to put the bullet into the bullseye. Once you've proven you can do that, take a silhouette target and practice double taps and if you get good at that, take it to the next level; triple taps. It becomes a bit more challenging that way and what better way is there to practice your speed loading, emergency or tactical reloading? You are shooting rapid fire, as if in a gun fight, and you suddenly realize you are out of ammo...reload and fire again. Or, another scenario, there is a sudden break in the action. You must maintain your guard but see the opportunity to insert a full magazine or reload the revolver so it is full. When the heat is on, you are not going to be counting the number of shots you fired. That is what a tactical reload is all about.

It's fun to do this type of stuff to make your self-training more challenging and enjoyable.

Time is critical, especially when something like a gun fight is in progress. There is nothing like saying, "time out, I need to reload." You have got to be able to do it by rote memory. Take the time when you are practicing your trigger management, for example, to train yourself how to reload your gun quickly. It could be just as important as pulling the trigger when it comes to defending yourself.
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Old December 4, 2009, 01:38 PM   #5
doh_312
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I practice my reloads as often as I practice shooting. However, I just realized I only practice one type of reload. I empty the gun, drop the mag, and let it fall to the ground because I know it is empty. Draw the new mag from the pouch, slam it in, and keep shooting.

What I need to practice more often is the tactical reload. Droping a half spent mag in your hand and switching to a full one seems just as viable as droping an empty one. I practice a tactical reload rarely, but I'll change that.

Is there such thing as a tactical reload for revolvers? If you only fire three times, but in a lull in action want to get a full cylinder ready, how do you do that with out loosing your remaining two or three rounds? I cant imagine sifting through the empty casings to find the live rounds during a shooting.
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Old December 4, 2009, 06:05 PM   #6
45Gunner
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I'm more of a semi-auto guy than a revolver guy and probably for that very reason. To my knowledge, there is no advantage to doing a complete reload while there are rounds remaining. You either have to empty the entire cylinder or you shoot until empty. If you revolver guys know different, please chime in.

Having a semi-auto eliminates that problem. Even if you have no idea how many rounds remain, a tactical reload solves the problem and you still have more rounds in the magazine that is in your hand, not to mention the round still in the chamber.

I know I am going to catch a lot of flak for this next statement and perhaps it will stimulate some positive discussion; I can't see any advantage of carrying a revolver as a primary gun. Yes, there are those that will claim it is more reliable than a semi-auto but I will argue against that point all day long as I have never missed an opportunity to shoot (at a range) because of a jammed semi-auto. Interesting enough, the other day at a range, a friend was shooting a .357 and it jammed. Seems the ejection rod came loose as it worked itself out of the threads. It took awhile to figure it out. Never saw that happen before but one can only imagine if he was in need of a quick reload.

Back in the days when I had to qualify every six months at the range, our duty gun was a H & K USP Compact .40 LEM. Qualification was not only about speed and accuracy with our drawing and shooting, but it also included timed emergency reloads, and decision making as to when to do a tactical reload. One more thing was thrown into the mix which may not be a bad idea to practice for the semi-auto guys, the instructors took one of our magazines before heading into the qualification range. A blank bullet was inserted somewhere, we weren't told which mag or where it was. It was intended to stimulate a malfunction in which we were timed to clear. The drill was a TAP (tap on the magazine to ensure it was properly seated), RACK (rack the slide to clear anything that was in the chamber), FIRE (no explanation needed).
If the gun continued malfunctioning, which it never did, it was time to change the underwear and break out the BUG.
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Old December 4, 2009, 07:40 PM   #7
BobCat45
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As Dannyl mentioned, the fired cases are expanded compared to unfired. If you have all the time in the world, you can:
1) Open the cylinder - muzzle pointing generally downward.
2) Push the ejector about half way and let it return.
3) The fired cases will stay sticking out, the unfired will slide back in.
4) Pluck the fired cases out and replace them with new cartridges.

This is something I read in a book and have practiced in the leisure of shooting at the range. I have never been in a gunfight and strongly wish never to be in a gunfight. IOW take this with a grain of salt.

Regards,
Andrew
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Old December 5, 2009, 08:00 PM   #8
Mr. Davis
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Quote:
Is there such thing as a tactical reload for revolvers? If you only fire three times, but in a lull in action want to get a full cylinder ready, how do you do that with out loosing your remaining two or three rounds? I cant imagine sifting through the empty casings to find the live rounds during a shooting.
I saw Ayoob on a show today (Personal Defense TV, I think), and he suggested the following:

1) You shoot, expending some, but not all, of your six rounds in a revolver.
2) Open the cylinder, and dump the brass and remaining rounds into your hand.
3) Drop the brass and unfired rounds into your pocket
4) Reload using a speeloader or speed strip.

This method gets the gun back into action faster than trying to dig out the spent casings and replace them one by one. You still have the original unspent rounds in case you need them, but you have a full pistol that's back in action.
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Old December 5, 2009, 11:55 PM   #9
KenpoTex
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some videos...

Massad Ayoob:

Reload with speedloaders

Reload with speedstrips


Michael de Bethancourt:

right handed shooter

left handed shooter
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Old December 6, 2009, 04:42 AM   #10
Glenn Dee
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I'm interested in how everyone would define the difference between training and practice.

I see training as learning something new in an organized manner from someone with more experience, and/or more training than yourself.

Informal training as learning something new from someone else.

Practice as a constant quest to perfect what works for you.

Infrequent practice as a minimum attempt to retain your skills.

Training with no practice is mere vanity.

No training, and no practice is a fools mission.

what are your opinions?
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Old December 6, 2009, 06:01 AM   #11
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To add to Glenn's last post, I believe it extremely important to practice what you've been trained to do, to the point where you're very comfortable and capable. Trying to learn too much too soon? I've seen more mistakes made that way I think than any other. Take your time and do it right, gosh, how many times have we been told that? I'm not saying wait for forever until you're perfect doing one thing, but certainly take your time, become proficient, and then on to the next task, training, increasing your skills, etc. Always safety first...
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Old December 6, 2009, 06:08 AM   #12
KenpoTex
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re: Glenn's post on training vs. practice

I think my definitions are pretty close to yours and I don't think this stuff only applies to shooting/fighting. We could be talking about playing an instrument, riding a motorcycle, or anything else.

Formal training is obvious...you're going to someone who [hopefully/ideally] has an expert's command of the material that you want to learn.

Informal training can be an exchange of ideas or "brainstorming session" with a peer or someone who may have some insights into a particular part of the equation that you don't have. It can also be work done on your own based on material you've been exposed to via instructional videos, books, or photo progressions, etc. This can be valuable and you can certainly learn in this manner, particularly when it comes to finding alternate solutions to a method you already have some familiarity with (revolver reloading techniques for example). However, I don't feel it is as efficient as getting "hands on" training from an expert.

"Practice" is just that. You're practicing the skills you gained during your training. Whether you practice enough to actually improve your skills or only enough to barely maintain them is just a matter of how much time you spend. I do feel that it is certainly a waste to obtain training and then never maintain the skills you have learned. One instructor I know likens this to buying a car...you sign the note (training) but then you have to make payments (practice) if you want to keep the car. Just as you will lose the car if you don't make the payments, you will lose your skills if you don't practice them.
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Old December 6, 2009, 01:34 PM   #13
Deaf Smith
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Best combat reload I know for revolvers is the New York reload. Way faster and my prefered method.

Quote:
I do feel that it is certainly a waste to obtain training and then never maintain the skills you have learned.
A pointless waste of time and money.

What I also see alot is people taking advanced classes yet never took any form of basic ones and thus were so far over their heads trying to keep up they ended up not learning a thing. And that to is a waste.
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Old December 6, 2009, 04:39 PM   #14
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What I also see alot is people taking advanced classes yet never took any form of basic ones and thus were so far over their heads trying to keep up they ended up not learning a thing. And that to is a waste.
Great point. If the fundamentals aren't there, then what's the point of taking a more advanced class. And besides, being "advanced" is little more than applying the fundamentals rapidly and consistently.
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Old December 6, 2009, 05:16 PM   #15
Nnobby45
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A pointless waste of time and money.
Yes, if you never practice or maintain what you've learned. However, you still have the knowledge and know what you need to work on.
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Old December 6, 2009, 05:24 PM   #16
Nnobby45
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Clint Smith's video demonstrates a very similar method. Hold the gun high enough so you can see your adversary and your gun. Reloading or topping off a couple fired rounds doesn't preclude one from a quick look at the gun, and for most, works reasonably well.

Knowing how to load in the dark strickly by feel is more advanced than most revolver shooters, but worth learning.
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