The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 29, 2009, 01:34 PM   #1
Hook686
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2005
Location: USA The Great State of California
Posts: 1,943
When eating out

Quote:
4 Police Officers Slain in Coffee HouseAP
posted: 21 MINUTES AGOcomments: 2filed under: Crime News, National NewsWith HP wireless printers, you could have printed this from any room in the house. Live wirelessly. Print wirelessly.


PRINT|E-MAILMOREText SizeAAATACOMA, Wash. (Nov. 29) — A sheriff's official in Washington state says four police officers have been shot dead in ambush at a coffee house.
Pierce County Sheriff's spokesman Ed Troyer told The News Tribune in Tacoma that the officers were sitting in the coffee shop with their computers when the shooter came in Sunday morning.
He says investigators believe the officers were targeted, and it was not a robbery.
Troyer tells the newspaper "it was just a flat out ambush."
He could not immediately say what agency the officers were from.
Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. Active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
2009-11-29 12:49:55
http://news.aol.com/article/4-police...bush-at/678280

When you are dining out, what is your method of maintaining situational awareness. Here 4 officers, trained, were taken out by one BG. Why would you, or I, be different ?
__________________
Hook686

When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.
Hook686 is offline  
Old November 29, 2009, 01:43 PM   #2
fastforty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 1999
Location: In a kornfield in kalifornia
Posts: 1,161
Situational awareness is what it's all about. These guys had to be stark raving Condition White. When we go out to eat, if I can't get a seat with my back to a wall and/or with the entire restaurant in full view, we go somewhere else. Period.
__________________
When Banjos are outlawed, only Outlaws will have Banjos
The Bible is my lawbook. I turn the other cheek when applicable, and spend the rest of my days resisting evil at every front, until I have breathed my last breath.
fastforty is offline  
Old November 29, 2009, 02:32 PM   #3
#18indycolts
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2006
Location: Indpls
Posts: 1,159
A very rare instance indeed.

Quote:
if I can't get a seat with my back to a wall and/or with the entire restaurant in full view, we go somewhere else. Period.
I'm a gambling man and the odds of this happening to me are very very low, I wouldn't let this ruin my night out by any means...but thats me.
#18indycolts is offline  
Old November 29, 2009, 02:40 PM   #4
SAIGAFISH
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2009
Location: portland oregon
Posts: 308
so you guys are saying you could go from typing to shooting
before someone who already has there gun out and shooting.

lets not assume the officers had any control of situation
SAIGAFISH is offline  
Old November 29, 2009, 03:47 PM   #5
Don P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,807
Seems from the posted info they were condition white, not paying attention in uniform ( marked targets). As civilians who knows who is armed, and yes back to the wall whenever possible with a view of the door making it even better. If the above mentioned is not available I stay and eat. Like it was stated what are the chances
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Range Safety Officer, IDPA Safety Officer, USPSA NROI Range Officer
As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.
Don P is offline  
Old November 29, 2009, 04:56 PM   #6
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,487
I learned as a rookie to ALWAYS WITH NO EXCEPTIONS sit where I can see the entrance. If possible with my back to a wall... but thats not always possible. I will however peruse everyone who enters the resturant. At the same time I'll be judging each person in the resturant, and everyone coming as a possible threat. An old timer told me to do this every time i went out to eat. Make it a habit. Now I cant turn it off. I'm retired several years now, and still do it out of habit.

I know nothing about what happened in Washington today, so I wont comment. I'm not going to assume the officers were in condition white... I can think of several scenarios where the officers would not have felt threatened. I'm not one to blame the victims.

This is a sad, and tragic day for law enforcement. I'll be putting a black mourning band on my retirement shield. I've lost more than a few friends in the line of duty... I pray for their families, and their department. I know what they are going through.
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old November 29, 2009, 06:48 PM   #7
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 1,801
They were in a group - Redistribution and reduction

They were openly carrying and had marked police cars parked outside - show of force

They were trained and had they backing of the law for their actions.

I can see why they felt safer. I would have also. I would have let my guard down and most likely would have been stretched out right beside them if it had been me.

How often do people go into a coffee shop and shoot four armed cops in uniform having lunch and tapping on their laptops? Well, till today never. Just goes to show you that you never know what kind of day you are going to have.

This is terrible and undeserved.
__________________
Proxima est Mors, Malum Nullum adhibit Misericordiam
MTT TL is offline  
Old November 29, 2009, 08:10 PM   #8
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,732
At today's IDPA match we had a drill where we fired two rounds into three targets from the draw. It is done is a couple of seconds. If you don't detect the BG as a threat, you are downed. If an ambush sets up with a person who looks innocuous, you are screwed. All the situational awareness couldn't prevent a well disguised person from doing this.

Sure, a noticeable tatooed, bald, guy, raving curses might alert you, but a normal looking person in a coffee shop - it is posturing to think that you can beat this.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old November 29, 2009, 08:15 PM   #9
DiscoRacing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 19, 2008
Location: milton, wv
Posts: 3,640
We have only one place that I will dine in... and its a corner booth... I never dine/sit with anyone behind my view... Wonder if that makes me paranoid??!!
DiscoRacing is offline  
Old November 29, 2009, 08:20 PM   #10
SAIGAFISH
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2009
Location: portland oregon
Posts: 308
lets all respect the slain officers please.
SAIGAFISH is offline  
Old November 29, 2009, 08:32 PM   #11
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
If an ambush sets up with a person who looks innocuous, you are screwed. All the situational awareness couldn't prevent a well disguised person from doing this.
I agree.

Let's stop and think for a minute. How many times in the course of a day does a police officer or citizen come in contact with normal acting people who could, in an instant, murder us if we'd been the subject of a planned assassination?

Latest reports (CNN) suggest one officer may have wounded the shooter. Too early to be trusting any such reports. May have been a security camera. He may have been driven from the scene. I'll bet officials on both sides of the Canadian border have been alerted. We'll see. Lacking the facts, I'll stop there.

Those four officers represented 15% of the police force. Saw it first on Fox news, but most other cable news channels seem to be more interested in Tiger Wood's car accident than they have this terrible incident that has devistated a relatively small town--- where folks tend to know each other personally.

Last edited by Nnobby45; November 29, 2009 at 08:41 PM.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old November 29, 2009, 10:27 PM   #12
FM12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 5, 2007
Location: Monroeville, Alabama
Posts: 1,606
One of the questions we were taught to ask to evaluate our daily tactics, was "How many people could have had me if they had wanted to kill me?" Just about everyone you come into contact with. As some have posed before,"Be polite, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet".
FM12 is offline  
Old November 29, 2009, 11:16 PM   #13
Trooper Tyree
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2009
Posts: 167
I heard about the officers earlier today as well, very sad. My condolences to their families of those involved in this terrible event.

My method? I sit in a corner or against the wall where I can see the people coming in and the other diners. Then I watch. Everybody. It's a PITA really, old habits die hard though. I don't know that I would call my self paranoid, it's more of a comfort level thing, I'm not comfortable unless I can see everyone around me and everyone coming in. This isn't always possible, and in those cases I just take the best position I can find, or I go somewhere else, I don't like dining in crowds anyway.

I was surprised to learn the shooter had gotten away. Apparently none of the officers even managed to return fire? Tragic. I can understand why though, to a degree at least. Small town, as the other poster pointed out a group of uniformed officers & cars = show of force, you can see why they felt safe. You see this a lot. I was in a pizza place just last week when about a half dozen officers came in. Knowing the town it was probably half or more of their officers. They all sat down at a long table in the middle of the dining area and paid no attention to me as I passed by going to the buffet from time to time.

Likewise there are two officers that regularly work on their laptops at a coffee shop I frequent. Both appear to be well seasoned officers but are usually engrossed in their computer screens and rarely take what I would consider defensive seating positions. Actually the closest they ever get to defensive positions is taking a booth. I've seen them both sitting in a glassed in area by the street & entrance where they could both be shot from the street and the sidewalk. The area is hardly a high crime area, although there was a robbery and shooting just about a hundred feet from there in that very plaza just a couple years ago. To each their own I suppose. The shooting was actually a CC firing on a robber and apparently hitting everything but the robber.
Trooper Tyree is offline  
Old November 29, 2009, 11:41 PM   #14
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,087
Quote:
When you are dining out, what is your method of maintaining situational awareness. Here 4 officers, trained, were taken out by one BG. Why would you, or I, be different ?
First, as Glenn said (and beat me to it), you can't guarantee you'll have time to react or do anything before the shootin' starts.

Sitting where you can see the entrance, as a rule, is a good thing. But if you're with other like-minded folks, someone may have to sit down "the wrong way". That's when I pay attention to their eyes and faces. If they're looking past me for more than 2 seconds (or their eyes get wide) it's condition orange time.

Booth or table? Booths can be more comfortable and sometimes feel more secure. But unless they're somewhat out of the way, I think they can be death traps. It's harder to get up and out of a booth than a table. Some of the newer restaurants have fixed supports in the floor for a sliding table. Conventional tables can be up-ended for a barrier (concealment at least) and you can move in several directions from the chairs.

Unless you're in uniform, it's not likely you'll be ambushed like these 4 officers. But keeping aware of your surroundings is always a good thing to practice.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old November 29, 2009, 11:42 PM   #15
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,951
Quote:
Apparently none of the officers even managed to return fire?
The news is saying that two were assassinated outright, while two were able to fight back. One of them did fire his weapon and they hope/believe the suspect was hit. They're checking area hospitals, of course.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old November 29, 2009, 11:45 PM   #16
Eagleks
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 574
It has not been a common scenario that I think most think about..... as LEO's. However, it's becoming more frequent. An officer here was killed when he was 'set -up' because he had arrested of the BG's friends.

With that in mind, if you are armed, give an LEO the courtesy and respect that he wants to protect himself until he's sure you aren't one of them.

Sympathies to the family, friends and co-workers of the Officers. I hope they catch the 2 BG's who did this very quickly. This seems obviously a planned thing.
Eagleks is offline  
Old November 30, 2009, 02:24 AM   #17
sakeneko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2009
Location: Nevada
Posts: 644
Quote:
When you are dining out, what is your method of maintaining situational awareness. Here 4 officers, trained, were taken out by one BG. Why would you, or I, be different?
In practice, because you or I are unlikely to come under deliberate ambush by a bunch of bad guys in this manner. We (or at least I) don't have a job that requires us to arrest bad guys and do other things that will **** them off. :/

With that caveat, however, you ask a good question. My situational awareness is poor; I tend to be a head-in-the-clouds type that walks into walls because I'm usually thinking about something a million miles away. I don't seem to do that as often in public these days, however; perhaps my relatively new (few months old) CCW has made me aware that I *need* to be aware of what the people around me are doing.

For some reason, this story has *really* hit home, maybe because my husband has a brother he loves very much who is a cop and who likes to meet with his buddies at a coffee shop to go over schedules too. :/
sakeneko is offline  
Old November 30, 2009, 09:01 AM   #18
JDot
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2009
Location: Northwest Oregon
Posts: 6
overnight standoff? at a home in Seattle. Suspect is either wounded or possibly dead. house currently surrounded.
JDot is offline  
Old November 30, 2009, 09:03 AM   #19
JDot
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2009
Location: Northwest Oregon
Posts: 6
Coffee shop owner was a former cop, himself.
JDot is offline  
Old November 30, 2009, 10:56 AM   #20
Tennessee Gentleman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
it is posturing to think that you can beat this.
If somebody wants you real dead then you are toast unles they really screw up. Many find htis hard to admit but we are NOT in control of all things. Very little actually. Wonder if it was a terrorist or mob hit?
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted."
Anonymous Soldier.
Tennessee Gentleman is offline  
Old November 30, 2009, 11:14 AM   #21
JDot
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2009
Location: Northwest Oregon
Posts: 6
Apparently it was some guy, out on parole, for who knows what all. They say it was not a crime with someone killed before that landed him in jail before hand. SWAT had his place surrounded earlier, I haven't heard the latest. I guess that all four were sitting in a booth on their laptops. He walked in pulled his gun and started shooting, one, got off a few shots at him, the rest didn't have much of a chance.
JDot is offline  
Old November 30, 2009, 02:09 PM   #22
sakeneko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2009
Location: Nevada
Posts: 644
They've apparently got into and searched the house, and he isn't in it. So the search for the bad guy continues.
sakeneko is offline  
Old November 30, 2009, 02:59 PM   #23
geetarman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,771
I am not now nor ever have been a police officer. God Bless you all for the job you do!

I have friends who are serving officers who do not dine with us unless they can see the door. Now I know it is not paranoia.

I really do not understand why some people do these things. . . nor do I understand why someone with a rap sheet as long as this guy is still breathing.

There is something very wrong with a legal system that seems to provide so many safeguards for the criminals and provides so much less for the law abiding.

God Bless them, their families and ALL who serve to make lives safer for the rest of us!!
geetarman is offline  
Old November 30, 2009, 03:24 PM   #24
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,987
Quote:
Here 4 officers, trained, were taken out by one BG. Why would you, or I, be different ?
I, for one, would not be in uniform.

Also, I really don't like the idea of working on a computer in a public place unless my back is to the wall and I have plenty of space around me (such as at the airport). Hard to be observant when you're on the computer.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old November 30, 2009, 03:43 PM   #25
cohoskip
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 10, 2007
Location: Chimacum, WA
Posts: 419
On Saturday night this piece of s##t told his buddies to watch the news on Sunday because he was going to kill some policemen. They didn't believe him...
__________________
To err is human, to forgive divine
Neither is Marine Corps policy...

NRA Life Member
cohoskip is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14189 seconds with 7 queries