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Old November 27, 2009, 09:12 AM   #1
mapsjanhere
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Guns as gifts

My loving wife dove into crazy hour today to buy me a xmas present. My normal dealer never gave her a hassle about buying guns as gift, but the chain store today did (to their honor, they did put the gun on hold for me to fill the paperwork).
Does anyone have the pertinent law quotes handy? Does gift buying between husband and wife constitute an illegal "buying for someone else"?
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Old November 27, 2009, 09:43 AM   #2
Don H
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Instruction #1 on the back of the 4473 spells it out pretty clearly:
Quote:
For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the
firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example,
redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment). You are also the
actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.

ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for
Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT
the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer “no “ to question 12a. The
licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to
buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is
the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 12a
.
This is question 12a:
Quote:
Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring
the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to
you. (See Important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples.)
To the best of my recollection, there is no federal law that deals specifically with gifting - "if it's not prohibited, it's permitted" - whether it be between family members or total strangers. Unless there's some state law to the contrary, your neighbor can legally gift you a gun.

Perhaps you can encourage the store personnel to actually read the form they require customers complete.
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Old November 27, 2009, 10:09 AM   #3
Mal H
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The key to buying a gun as a gift is to never tell the dealer that it is going to be a gift, no matter how tempting it might be to tell the world you're buying a gift. It is perfectly legal as long as it is a legitimate gift for someone who is otherwise allowed to own a gun. But, telling the dealer it's a gift often brings unnecessary hassles into the process. Most do indeed know the law and how it is applied, but I know for a fact that a good percentage of them don't. It isn't conducive to a happy gun buying experience to try to weed them out or educate them (they know the law much better than you, and will never be convinced otherwise).

As Don H's info clearly shows you can answer the question about being the actual buyer of the gun honestly, without fanfare, and move on.

As I think about it, the chain store is actually so wrong that they are trying to make what would be a legitimate purchase into a straw purchase. If you fill out the 4473 with your information, and you purchase the gun with your wife's money, then you may be breaking the law. The hazy part concerns whose money it is, if you and your wife share a bank account, as most couples do, then it might be argued that it is also your money. Bottom line is they are muddying the legal waters with their lack of knowledge of the actual laws and regulations involved.
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Old November 27, 2009, 01:27 PM   #4
vranasaurus
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I just bought my wife a gun for christmas. Told the dealer I was buying it as a gift and I had no issues.

As clearly mentioned in the form instructions buying as a gift is
OK.

Big box stores are generally hard to deal wiith because they often have store policies that are more restrictive than the actual law. They often simplify it so it is easier to train employees especially when they have high turn over.

I recently went to walmart to buy a rifle. I am stationed in MS but have an IA drivers license. I am considered a resident of MS for the purpose of the GCA. Walmart refused to sell me the rifle becuase they have a policy requiring the address on the 4473 to match the drivers license.

Many box stores may have a policy that if the purchaser says anything but this gun is for me (i.e. gift) they are not to make the sale.
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Old November 27, 2009, 02:09 PM   #5
mapsjanhere
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Thanks for the quotation, I figured as much. To finish the story, I went to pick up the rifle, and was denied too. We recently moved, and NM doesn't require you to get a new driver's license when you do. So DL and current address weren't the same, and that was too much for the "big store" clerk.
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Old November 27, 2009, 05:17 PM   #6
Chipperman
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The Dealer does not need to know it is a gift any more than they need to know how many guns you already have.

Fill out the Form truthfully, and don't say anything more than necessary.
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Old November 27, 2009, 06:51 PM   #7
jgcoastie
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Quote:
I am stationed in MS but have an IA drivers license. I am considered a resident of MS for the purpose of the GCA. Walmart refused to sell me the rifle becuase they have a policy requiring the address on the 4473 to match the drivers license.
I assume you are A/D Military? If so, take a copy of your PCS orders and your military ID. No DL required.

See here.

I agree, the chain stores often introduce more hassle than is reasonable, legal requirements aside.
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Old November 27, 2009, 07:38 PM   #8
NavyLT
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Yep, that's why I buy my guns at the local Ace Hardware store! I told them about the hassle I had buying firearms at the big store (I am military also) and he said, just show me your military ID. I don't even need you to bring a copy of my orders. You can use my computer to download your orders here. It helps that he is ex military :-).
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Old November 27, 2009, 07:49 PM   #9
vranasaurus
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I realize all I need is my PCs orders and my military ID. Many of the shops I have gone to want to see my DL as well. If they ask I just show it to them.

I see no reason to get into an argument when it takes me all of two seconds to show my DL.
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Old November 28, 2009, 09:26 PM   #10
NavyLT
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Quote:
I realize all I need is my PCs orders and my military ID. Many of the shops I have gone to want to see my DL as well. If they ask I just show it to them.

I see no reason to get into an argument when it takes me all of two seconds to show my DL.
And that is perfectly fine, I wouldn't have a problem about it either, until they are making an in-state driver's license a requirement for the purchase, or if they record your out-of-state driver's license as the form of ID they accepted on the 4473 for a handgun purchase, but that would be their bust, not yours.
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Old December 10, 2009, 12:12 AM   #11
gearchecker
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Quote:
refused to sell me the rifle becuase they have a policy requiring the address on the 4473 to match the drivers license.
In Idaho the Licensing is done by the County and not the State. My county does not require that I ever change my address on my drivers license as long as I keep their computer records up to date. County law/policy for purchasing firearms is modified to require me to bring a 2nd and 3rd form as proof of current address (Electric Bill, Tax Statement and the like)
for the firearm purchasing forms. I've never had an issue from any dealer here including Walmart where I bought a Rifle, because my Driver License address was not my current residence address.

If I ever need to purchase outside of my county/state I've memorized the address on my DL just in case. It always matches that way.
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Old December 11, 2009, 12:28 AM   #12
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Another reason not to get guns from them

Store policies more restrictive than the law, and often employee ignorance or misinterpretation of those same policies are not, to me, worth the small handfull of dollars one can save over buying from a gun dealer.
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Old December 11, 2009, 06:49 AM   #13
blume357
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Somebody has referenced the ATF place where it says you

can give a gun as a gift. I believe you can go this for a brand new gun bought from a dealer.

Best example I can give you is that I bought a M1 Garand from CMP and in the letter I sent with the other paper work I specifically told them the rifle was going to be given to my father as a gift and that he was a resident of my state and could legally own a firearm.
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