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Old November 15, 2009, 12:12 AM   #1
Christchild
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Pistol ShotShells

I'm starting this New Thread so I don't "Thread Jack" DarkGael's Thread.

I read his, and was going to reply with my question, but to avoid being a Thread Terrorist, here's this one...

The OP stated the use of ShotCups in loading ShotShells for his pistol. One reply/post stated the use of GasChecks in the place of a ShotCup (great idea!).

I'm thinking, now, since I still have my .45 Auto Components (sold my Glock21 ), about gathering some info from the Pro's here, on the subject.

Loading .45 Auto ShotShells, with say, #9, #10, #11 or #12 shot, and using GasChecks, would I use a .44 caliber or .45 caliber GC? Would a .45 caliber GC need to be pushed into place, or would it "fall" in?

If a .45 caliber GC would need to be pushed/forced, then a .44 caliber GC would fall right in, I'm sure, since it would be roughly 0.020" difference. I don't see many details on a given caliber GC dimensions, just "44" or "45" caliber.

Any Thoughts?

Thanks In Advance!
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Old November 15, 2009, 02:10 AM   #2
darkgael
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GCs

You'd need to be pretty close to size. I tried last night with .429 GCs.... way too small. Not having any .45 cal GCs around, I looked for other possibilities. I have a box of Speer shot capsules - like the ones I used for the other test - in .45 cal. They are really meant for the .45 Colt and appear to be too long for .45ACP.
I ended up loading a shotshell in a .45 Colt case using .45 cal vegetable wads ("Walter's Wads"). Two over the powder and one over the shot with a healthy crimp to hold it in place. The shot charge weighs 154 grains. I will test it asap.
I wonder about getting a .45 ACP round to feed from the magazine. Would it have to be single-loaded? Pistol shotshells tend to be mild compared to normal loadings.
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Old November 15, 2009, 11:14 AM   #3
Christchild
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I agree. That would be my 2 main concerns, feeding and cycling...

I have a box (20 rounds) of CCI .45 Auto ShotShells that I've had for quite a few years, but never fired them. The aluminum cases are long and rounded at the mouth, I'm assuming to aid feeding. And being a light load (Yours is 154 gr.), I'm guessing You'd have to use a powder charge a little on the high end (of listed load data) for a bullet of similar weight (185 gr. in .45 Auto).

I was loading 185 gr. JHP in .45 Auto with 9.5 gr. AA#5. Those were potent, but I don't believe it would be a +P load. A Shot PayLoad of 150-155 gr. may or may not cycle, since it would be a little lighter, yes, but the friction/resistance of the jacketed bullet isn't there to produce usual working pressures.

This would be easy in/for a revolver, but You're right, a Semi-Auto needs to feed/cycle.

I'll be keeping an eye on both of these Threads. There IS a way!!!
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Old November 15, 2009, 11:59 AM   #4
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There is a way. RCBS has a 45 auto shotshell die set, and a case forming die to cut down .308 or .7,62 brass (I think /06 brass works also). I have the set for many years now and it makes some pretty good shotshells, almost identical to the Aluminum CCI ones.

They cycle ok, but do not always feed 100%. Maybe 80 or 90%. Good enough for range plinking or snake defense. I did not like over shot wads, too fragile. I got to using a single 00 Buck to cap it with which makes them very durable. It reduced the shot payload by ~as much as the buckshot weighed. About 53 grains so I had ~115 gr of shot and the 53-55 gr Buckshot.

Where in the world do you get #12 shot? Tell me and then we'll both know, lol.
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Old November 15, 2009, 03:30 PM   #5
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more

I did pattern that .45 Colt loading. The pattern was 87%; Picture in the other thread.
Pete
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Old November 15, 2009, 05:44 PM   #6
Christchild
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Quote:
Where in the world do you get #12 shot? Tell me and then we'll both know, lol.
I saw #12 shot at MidwayUSA last night, while looking over components, since all this came to mind. At Midway, it's under "Reloading", then Shotshell Components, Shot and Slugs. 1st page. Or, just click on this link.
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Old November 17, 2009, 01:21 AM   #7
'Borg
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Actually, the RCBS set is to be used with a cut down 410 wad and a 357 gas check, and they feed perfectly and cycle with a standard weight spring.
I bought my set in '82 and loaded up a couple of K, still have 1500 or so.
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Old November 17, 2009, 02:47 AM   #8
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I have loaded 45 ACP shotshells for years (not all year every year, just as needed), I have the RCBS forming dies and the loading die set. Here are a few tips:
If you intend to use Speer plastic shot capsules to load 45 ACP shotshells, you will have to single-load the shotshells into the chamber when you intend to fire them, the shot cups are very brittle and will not withstand normal feeding.
If you intend to make one-piece 45 ACP shotshells, you form them out of 308 cases or out of 45 WinMag cases (not out of 45ACP cases) using a forming die (I prefer the 45 WinMag cases because they are thinner, easier to work with, and hold more powder and shot). If you decide to use 308 cases, do not use military cases, they are very thick and hard. 30-06 brass will not work, the case has too much taper to it and will not have a headspacing shoulder after forming. The forming die necks the case and forms a headspacing shoulder where the mouth of the case would be in a 45 ACP case so that your pistol will headspace properly. The cases have to be necked to allow feeding (the necked part simulates the bullet in a regular 45 ACP case and holds the shot).
Quote:
The OP stated the use of ShotCups in loading ShotShells for his pistol
I use 410 shotcups cut down. They seal the case and bore better, protect the shot, and hold the shot together longer than the method recommended by others (felt or fiber base wad, cut-out cardboard, etc).
Quote:
would I use a .44 caliber or .45 caliber GC?
Use 44 cal gas checks as an over-shot wad, 45 cal gas checks won't fit once you neck down the cases.
Quote:
If a .45 caliber GC would need to be pushed/forced, then a .44 caliber GC would fall right in, I'm sure, since it would be roughly 0.020" difference.
When the case is necked, the mouth of the case is about .430", about the size of a 44 cal gas check. When it is crimped in place, it will not move.
Quote:
Loading .45 Auto ShotShells, with say, #9, #10, #11 or #12 shot,
I use #7-1/2 or #8 shot, in no case would I use any smaller than #9. The shells need to generate enough velocity to cycle the action on a 1911, about 800 fps, so smaller pellets won't have very much energy.

If you don't want to lay out the money to buy a set of forming and loading dies for 45 ACP shotshells, you may want to just buy loaded 45 ACP shotshells from Old Western Scrounger.
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Old November 17, 2009, 04:48 AM   #9
darkgael
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#12

Scorch: I very much like your post. Using cut down .410 wads in these types of cases just didn't occur to me. I'll be trying/patterning that with the .44 and .45 Colt when I get home this Friday.
About #11 or #12 shot and cycling - they should cycle the gun because the actual shot charge should weigh more (or at least as much) than, say 7.5s, for a given volume as the smaller shot fit closer together - more like sand than stones - and the initial push would be like a push against a heavier solid bullet. Agree, though, that the effective range is reduced; #12 pellets don't weigh a whole lot.
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Old November 17, 2009, 08:33 AM   #10
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12's don't go far but they pattern real good.
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Old November 17, 2009, 08:48 AM   #11
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pretty interesting stuff... I haven't loaded any lately, but still have several 38 special & 44 mag shot shell loads using the Speer shot cups... I guess I never really thought about loading for a bottom feeder... I'd think the longer brass would have a higher incedence of stove piping, even if the powder & shot charges were good, just because of the longer brass... I suspect the cut down .410 wads would work good ( I am working on a 50 cal shot shell, & cut down a shot cup from 32 or 28 ga... don't remember which I bought off the top of my head )... glad I'm a revolver guy, lots less variables... good luck in your endevor...
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Old November 17, 2009, 01:47 PM   #12
Scorch
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Quote:
About #11 or #12 shot and cycling - they should cycle the gun because the actual shot charge should weigh more (or at least as much) than, say 7.5s, for a given volume as the smaller shot fit closer together - more like sand than stones - and the initial push would be like a push against a heavier solid bullet
Absolutely, the charge of smaller shot will weigh slightly more, but I was referring more to the energy of the smaller shot versus the larger shot at the same velocity, 800 fps.
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Old November 17, 2009, 05:43 PM   #13
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Hey folks,

I never tried making shotshells for auto-loading pistols, but I have made plenty of .357 and .44 Mag shotshells for many years. Instead of shotshell type wads, I use gas checks - two gas checks per round. One gas check is placed directly on the powder charge with its skirt up, then I fill the case with shot and cover the shot with the second gas check placed over the shot with its skirt down. A rounded crimp holds the whole load in place.

I like gas checks because they make a very solid load when crimped, and they do not take space away from the shot load. I use .357 gas checks for .357 loads and .44 gas checks for .44 loads. I thought I read that someone said they could not fit .44 gas checks in their .44 loads. I don't know why that would be, I do it with mine. Maybe I misread or misunderstood what was written.

Best wishes,
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Old November 17, 2009, 06:11 PM   #14
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Okay, now that David has added .44 mag shotshells, I'll add my 2 cents with a thought for fellow tinkerers.

I make .44 mag shotshells from .303 British cases. The base dimensions are quite near normal .44 dimensions, just a bit large on the rims. So, I lathe turn the rims to about .510" diameter and thin them so they will fit in my counter-bored Smith 29 cylinder. Then trim the bodies to 1.720", just under cylinder length.

Blow out the taper and I get small shouldered "bottle neck" .44 mag. cases that will hold about 180 gr. of #9 shot over 6/Bullseye.

Over-powder wad is a quarter sheet of toilet tissue, packed tight with a pencil and then "solidified" with a several drops of melted candle wax, that makes it about 1/4" thick and seems to seal the powder pretty well. The over shot wad is a disc of .015" aluminum flashing, snugly fitted inside the neck with a roll crimp to secure it. (I had to make the wad seater/crimper, no common seating die would fit.) A few drops of water-proof glue finger wiped over the top seals it for any normal exposure. It works much better than any shot capsule loads I've ever tried.

Never chronographed it but that charge will blow through 1/2" sheetrock at 6' easily. The pattern is at point of aim and covers about 15" at 6-8 feet, at 3-4 feet the 6" pattern literally shreds snake heads.
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