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Old November 15, 2009, 09:17 PM   #1
javven
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Pump vs Semi-Auto SPEED!

Years ago I got challenged by a semi-auto shooter to see who was faster - me with my Model 12 or him with his semi. I forget what he was shooting but the results were pretty interesting and his last shell was fired -after- my last empty hit the ground. It was a semi that was contemporary with the time, but not, for example one of the newer models like an SX2, AL391, etc (it may have been an 1100). In other words - is a newer pump like the Nova or BPS as fast as a newer semi auto?

I wonder if this is still the case, or if it was and still is all in the shooter.

Stipulation was all shots had to take out a milk jug down-range, they were spaced about 2' apart. Both guns started with 4 in the tube and 1 in the chamber.

BTW - I consider such things totally academic and I do not encourage exhibition style shooting, or any shooting period unless you are 100% trained in and experienced with it and it can be done in a 100% safe manner! True professional shooters are just that - PROFESSIONALS! I am not and the fact that I am alive today does not mean what I did was a good idea - it should not be tried or replicated by anyone for any reason.
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Old November 15, 2009, 09:44 PM   #2
Ricky
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Pump vs Auto

I've got an 1100 and an 870, For speed the 1100 wins, hands down.
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Old November 15, 2009, 10:03 PM   #3
rc
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I think that comes down to shooter ability. A semi mechincally can beat a pump every time. Even and auto 5 should beat a nova if, and I mean if the shooter can control the gun as it recoils. I remember shooting an auto five as a kid and emptying the gun in under 5 seconds. Damn thing climbed like crazy due to the design. I think a pump makes a shotgunner sometimes more accurate because it slows you down and makes you focus on the basics of swing and follow through. I'm sure I can beat you with an 1100 if you use a model 12
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Old November 15, 2009, 10:11 PM   #4
Dave McC
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A few decades back I hunted much with a friend who was deadly with his A-5.

I used an 870.

We noted I could get off a well placed second shot before he could.

However, I noted I can get off 5 shots with this loaner Saiga faster than I can even with my well worn and commonly used Frankenstein 870.

Not by much. Call it about .25 seconds.
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Old November 15, 2009, 10:43 PM   #5
Crosshair
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If you're concerned with raw speed it's hard to beat a disconectorless Ithaca 37. I need to time myself with my 7+1 model.
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Old November 15, 2009, 10:51 PM   #6
HiBC
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For many years I used an Ithaca 37.Its not so much about the disconnectorless idea,I pull the trigger each time.
But,when the shotgun fired,my left hand came back with the recoil,then immediately my left hand went back to the target.I think this pump action actively returnsthe shotgun to target quicker than the more passive recoil recovery of a semi -auto.however.

Times change.My brother bought one of those black Bennellis.

I think the debate is over.

The Bennelli is fast.Shoot one.
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Old November 16, 2009, 01:13 AM   #7
fastforty
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Some very experienced shooters can fire a pump pretty doggone fast BUT, theres no way the long stroke of a pump can go through it's cycle nearly as fast as a semi auto does. Granted, the pump unlocks the instant the trigger releases, while the semi has to wait for gas pressure to come through, but it is still faster. Toss in the fact that much of the recoil is absorbed with the semi and you just can't beat it.

May be apples & oranges, but with the old .22 pump gallery guns you can hold the trigger down & pump like crazy, firing rounds the *instant* the action snaps shut and it still isn't nearly as fast as a [blowback operated] .22 semi auto.
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Old November 16, 2009, 01:43 AM   #8
FALPhil
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Quote:
In other words - is a newer pump like the Nova or BPS as fast as a newer semi auto?
That's a trick question, since in this regard, the Model 12 is unique.

There is no autoloader as fast as a Model 12 in the hands of someone who knows how to shoot a Model 12. The simple reason is that the Model 12 has no disconnector. All you have to do is hold the trigger back and shuck the cob. With practice, you can do it fast and accurate.
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Old November 16, 2009, 03:57 AM   #9
impalacustom
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I'd be willing to put my old Remington Model 11 up against that Winchester Model 12 for sheer speed. I still have the parts that malfunctioned on my Model 11 and it went full auto on me. The last round went off before the first casing hit the ground, all 5 shots. It scared the heck out of me too.

The humans reaction time for a pump is still going to be more than a machines ability to do what it was designed to do. Granted muscle memory helps tremendously but the auto will beat the pump for sheer speed.
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Old November 16, 2009, 04:46 AM   #10
HiBC
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I absolutely agree the action of a semi-auto is faster.
I still make the point there is a delay beyond that where the shooter is absorbing and recovering from recoil.Both the semi-auto and the pump have this period of the shooter recovering from recoil.Agreed,semi-autos soak up recoil,but it can occur that pushing the slide forward toward the target draws the muzzle back to the target by force,rather than the settling back down of a semi.So,I believe they can be close enough as to not matter,till that doggone Bennelli came along.

They are different.There is no contest,IMO
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Old November 16, 2009, 05:48 AM   #11
dropthehammer
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IMO the Model 12 was the fastest gun in its day. The A-5 and the Model 11 had recoiling barrels (I can't think of the technical term) they are fast shooters, but in my personal experience the Model 12 is faster. The Model 12 is probably faster than any pump gun in production today. I would have to say the Benelli auto is faster than the Model 12.
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Old November 16, 2009, 07:58 AM   #12
oletymer
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Why does anyone care? Well placed shots are far better than a bunch or missed shots.
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Old November 16, 2009, 09:09 AM   #13
FALPhil
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Quote:
Why does anyone care? Well placed shots are far better than a bunch or missed shots.
Because the Model 12 was the overwhelming favorite of trick and exhibition shooters for decades. They were able to use it effectively to be fast and accurate.

It doesn't take a whole lot of practice to figure it out. 3 boxes of shells, and I was tossing 5 clay birds in the air and breaking them all before they hit the ground.

And, I think I can do it faster than anyone with a Model 11.
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Old November 16, 2009, 11:02 AM   #14
Scattergun Bob
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Quote:
In other words - is a newer pump like the Nova or BPS as fast as a newer semi auto?
John Satterwhite in his day, shot his 870 pump gun faster than any of us could shoot our new M-1 Super 90's.

Jim Kleaman in his day, could make a M121-B fire so fast that we questioned if is was not full-auto.

Mr Knapp is shockingly fast with the new Nova pumpgun.

So I will parrot my pop's frequently preached sermon, "son it's not the arrow, it's the Indian!"

Given apples to apples comparison, My personal opinion is that a tuned up Benelli Model 121 semiautomatic scattergun is about as fast as it gets.

Good Luck and Be Safe
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Old November 16, 2009, 12:09 PM   #15
BigJimP
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Its the shooter - not the gun ...../ and in the hands of a trained shooter, a pump gun can be very quick. In an "untrained hand" a pump gun can be very slow ...

Whether its the act of pumping the forend to move the bolt, load another shell .........vs an inertia system moving the bolt, loading the next shell, etc .... - the bolt still has to move roughly the same distance ( if they're both 3" chambererd guns ) ....

but in most hands - I would bet on a Benelli Super Sport semi-auto vs a pump gun / but it'll be close in the hands of a Trained Shooter .
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Old November 16, 2009, 01:34 PM   #16
minijeff
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Winchester SX3

I would have to lay my money on the semi after seeing this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t1RjviWeV4

12 shots in less than 1.5 seconds?!?!
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Old November 16, 2009, 01:51 PM   #17
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.11 (or so) splits with hits.

Back in the early days of paintball we had convinced ourselves that "a good man" with a pump was the equal of someone with a semi. Didn't work out like that. The "good man" with a pump, if he was smart anyway, focused on backshooting his opponent and not going toe to toe.
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Old November 16, 2009, 05:11 PM   #18
impalacustom
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Bill Hillis was doing what Tom Knapp is doing today back in 1910 with his auto.
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Old November 16, 2009, 05:37 PM   #19
zippy13
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Milk jugs, game, clays or BGs: as long as the gun can cycle faster than the shooter can get on his next target, what difference does it make? To me, the important factor is the semi-autos' typically lower recoil than the pumps -- that's a major factor in quickly acquiring your next target.

Last edited by zippy13; November 16, 2009 at 08:03 PM. Reason: tpyo
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Old November 16, 2009, 06:26 PM   #20
javven
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Folks - don't take this too seriously - that wasn't the intention. As I said - I consider this to be an academic difference, but still good for discussion

The Model 12 is incredibly slick and is easily as quick as any -pump- today in my hands (and I have shot them all). Yes, this includes the Nova - which is the only thing even close.

With an equal number of shells through it the Nova might be just as fast. New vs New it'd probably also be a dead heat.

I've shot 5 - stand with both the Model 12 and an AL 391 and find I can acquire the 2nd bird just as fast with the pump, but on the -same- target (missed single) I am faster with the auto....

Again - academic but neat to see people's experiences. Safe shooting!
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Old November 16, 2009, 06:49 PM   #21
fal308
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The fastest shotgun I've ever shot was my M12-M1. For me it was quicker than my no disconnecter 20 ga 37.
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Old November 20, 2009, 12:09 AM   #22
DG45
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Remington Model 11 semi-auto. If it shot fast enough for Bonnie and Clyde (and the US Military in WWII) it's fast enough for me.
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Old November 20, 2009, 01:09 AM   #23
gyvel
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Quote:
There is no autoloader as fast as a Model 12 in the hands of someone who knows how to shoot a Model 12. The simple reason is that the Model 12 has no disconnector. All you have to do is hold the trigger back and shuck the cob. With practice, you can do it fast and accurate.
That feature isn't unique to the Model 12. It is also found on the Winchester Model 97, Ithaca Model 37 (not sure about the Remington 17 and 31), Stevens 520 and 620, and some of the "house" brand guns based on these designs.
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Old November 20, 2009, 03:18 AM   #24
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satterwhite

I saw a very old video of SATTERWHITE on exhibition shoots, and to break his own pump record for hand thrown clays he used a semi.

One of our guys had contact w/ him and he sent the tape himself. Great guy.
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Old November 21, 2009, 02:10 AM   #25
HiBC
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It is the inertial semi-auto Bennelli that I am calling fast
Then,there are folks,like McGivern and Miculek with handguns,that are amazing.
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