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Old November 12, 2009, 04:24 PM   #1
Aristodemus
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Why Liberals Should Love the Second Amendment -- still awesome after a year

There's a group of users on dailykos.com who are out to prove that you can be liberal/progressive AND a big 2A supporter.

They're attempting to post a new diary every Tuesday. You can search for it right here (or just go to www.dailykos.com/search and put RKBA in the search field "stories and diaries"). Forward this link to any liberal friends you have who don't support RKBA.

One extremely popular diary was written last year and was recently reposted. It's titled "Why Liberals Should Love the Second Amendment." Read it, forward it to any liberal friends you have who don't support RKBA. It is long, detailed, and hot-linked to numerous data sources. If you google it you'll find it cross-posted all over conservative, libertarian, and, yes, liberal sites and blogs.

Note: it was first posted in April 2008, about two months before the decision in Heller was published, and I don't think it's been updated. The arguments presented about the "individual rights" interpretation are very, very similar to those used by the majority in Heller.

You may ask why this is so special? Because it's written by somebody left of center, posted on one of the biggest left of center blogs, expressly to convince people who are left of center that their belief system WRT the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments can only lead to one conclusion: that liberals should love the Second Amendment. I posted it here last year because I think it is one of the most persuasive -- if not the most persuasive -- 2A arguments for an audience that is left of center.

Reading the comments is optional. Enjoy.
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Old November 12, 2009, 04:43 PM   #2
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That, sir, is an excellent find. I mean an outstanding find. If that were the mind-set of every liberal, I may would lean a little more left than I do now (which is none, not at all). This post is so great that I wish there were a reputation system on this board so I could rep you for it. You get a cookie AND a gold star
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Old November 12, 2009, 05:12 PM   #3
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I'll 2nd that ..... excellent referral

I read the entire article.... parts of it twice. The logic as to why liberals should support the 2A are very clear. Now.... any thoughts as to why they don't?
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Old November 12, 2009, 05:16 PM   #4
Glenn E. Meyer
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Warning, warning DANGER - Will Robinson.

Such threads may lead to ranting and bashing and banning. That would be nasty.

To answer the question - I point you to my Sig and the URL about being an academic shooter. In that piece that I wrote for the National Tactical Invitational web site - I give my outstanding analysis of the issue.

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Old November 12, 2009, 05:38 PM   #5
Dragon55
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I bet that ol' Dr. Smith has done something to get the robot all bothered.

I certainly didn't intend to fire up any bashing or ranting. It's just that I thought the piece was well written and offered a lot of clear logic. I also didn't want to infer anything about liberals or conservatives.

Heck, I'm mainly a fence rider anyway.... as most folks are.

Glen..... the students that responded to your survey answered pretty much the way the laws are currently written.... didn't they?? I find that interesting and somehow comforting. (I didn't read your whole sig... Lordy.. I got stuff to do)
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Old November 12, 2009, 05:44 PM   #6
5whiskey
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Glenn, I was about to warn the OP about using labels such as "liberal" and "conservative" and generalize them... but I decided against it. To do so DOES take away from the very useful and interesting point of view expressed in the link. I see a propensity for immature posters to lead this off topic, but the OPs information is informative.

Liberals and conservatives DO have certain general (but not all encompassing), and usually opposite belief systems. To infer this, and give logical and non-judgemental argument to one group as to why their beliefs are mis-placed, is not a bad thing. The resulting dialogue could be, but it hasn't turned that way yet. As long as it stays on topic without getting defensive (or offensive), I don't think it would be distracting.

Of course, that is your call and not mine. Rap my knuckles if you need to.
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Old November 12, 2009, 06:41 PM   #7
Ditto_95
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Glenn, while an interesting read self promotion seems to be unbecoming.

Thanks for the interesting read. It was an alternet perspective that is not usually observed.
More statistics that have not been skewed could produce a paper that might be consumed by the media.
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Old November 12, 2009, 07:05 PM   #8
Tom Servo
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It's a good read, and very prescient given next year's case in the Supreme Court. It's a huge chance to bring many liberals around to our point of view, and perhaps gain a few allies.

The 2nd Amendment is the ultimate guarantor of all individual rights, and anyone concerned with civil rights should understand this.
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Old November 13, 2009, 11:15 AM   #9
Glenn E. Meyer
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Self-promotion - tell me how much money I made on it. What a laugh. Think it will get me a Hollywood contract?

It's been in my sig for ages. Haha!

Our experience with the liberal and conservative discussion is that it move away from Law and Civil Rights to cursing and ranting about social issues, conspiracies and the like. All liberals are... All conservatives are ...

We are united in our belief in the RBKA and don't need to savage each other.
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Old November 13, 2009, 11:53 AM   #10
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It's easier to treat the other guy as a stereotype

Easier, but mentally lazy, and self-deceiving.

Using myself as an example - started out D, shifted over to R, but mostly consider myself an independent. If I hadn't needed to select a party in order to vote in primaries in my previous home state, I'd have just gone with independent.

Defense policy wise, I'm center right, and believe in a strong defense policy. At the same time, I think military might should be a last resort, not an opening gambit.

L&CR wise, I personally think we should decriminalize marijuana, and instead of deficit spending on a War on Drugs we should actually turn a profit by taxation and regulation. I don't think marijuana is any more harmful than tobacco or alcohol, and I think we all agree that Prohibition was a hideously bad idea and a failed experiment - so I can't figure out why they keep on with the ban on marijuana.

I'd like to see the small time dealers and the couriers out of prison sooner, so the violent offenders could be put in with more frequency and for longer duration.

I'm anti-death penalty, but not because I think it's cruel and unusual. I just think that our system is imperfect and arbitrary (it's far better than most, but anything run by man is inherently fallible), and I think the execution of one innocent man is too high a price for the claimed deterrent value the death penalty is claimed to offer.

I'm extremely pro-2A, but at the same time I'm also extremely pro-1A, and it bothers me no end to see the mainstream media stand up for one but not the other.

I do think this country was built on the premise of individual effort and achievement, and not on the premise of government providing for everybody's basic survival needs.

At the same time, I thought Dukakis actually had some good ideas with regard to welfare, IE devising a system that rewarded people for getting jobs and weaning themselves off government support, instead of taking away dollar for dollar immediately after the people found jobs.

I spent 20 years, between active and reserve time, guarding the rights of people in the US to do and say things that I consider stupid, or worse. I despise flag-burners, but feel that if they aren't allowed to burn the flag, that the flag loses all meaning. I think that the fact those idiots are allowed to desecrate Old Glory may be one of the greatest strengths of Old Glory as a symbol - if that doesn't symbolize freedom of political expression, I don't know what does.

So, I don't want government to stop such protests, even though I'd like to personally punch out the lights of some of those folks...

I have absolutely no issues with homosexuals. I'm not one, so what they do does not impact me. I have friends who are gay. They don't hit on me, they don't make me uncomfortable, and I am not threatened by them.

Then again, I figure since I started flirting with girls as a toddler, that sexuality is kind of hard-wired biologically. I'm pretty sure my environs didn't teach me to be straight by age 1.

I currently work as a defense contractor, and am preparing to head to Afghanistan next week. I fully support the effort there, but can understand the Obama administration's hesitation. It's not exactly a simple problem, and gaining the support of US voters - who are notorious for both short attention spans and a lack of geopolitical awareness - isn't just a one-time challenge. The support of the voters has to be constantly won anew - so I don't blame the guy for being leery of sending over more troops without being sure the public will not balk, and worse.

But I still think he should send the troops that GEN McChrystal thinks he needs.

So, stereotype my politics, if you can.
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Old November 13, 2009, 11:56 AM   #11
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Glenn, you are correct and I apologize.
Our common goal is RKBA.
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Old November 13, 2009, 12:13 PM   #12
#18indycolts
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Quote:
out to prove that you can be liberal/progressive AND a big 2A supporter.
I thought all pro gunners were conservatives.
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Old November 13, 2009, 12:24 PM   #13
Glenn E. Meyer
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Ok, kids - my prediction rings true. We are starting to attract posts we don't want. So the initial point was well made and we had some reasonable discussion up to the deletion. That last post that I deleted was out of line as compared to the other reasonable ones.

However, I don't like leaving an attractive nuisance, so to speak out there - thus, closed.

Sorry

PS - the mills of the Gods were started up.
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