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Old November 6, 2009, 01:02 PM   #1
wpcexpert
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Shot placement...deer can be killed anywhere

Most of yall have heard my rants on shot placement.

I believe that I can efectively kill a deer no matter what position the body is facing. I'm confident in my equipment and abilities to do so. And I believe that you can too. I'm saying all this to make a point.

I've been in kind of a slump lately. I haven't been able to spell deer, much less get a shot. Yesterday evening, a deer came in late, and by the time I was able to draw and get settled, I had a "less than perfect" angle. I didn't have time to wait, so I sent the arrow and less than 8 seconds and 60yds later, the deer was dead. It was a shot that most hunters would never dream of taking, but to no avail, the deer is dead.

Why is it important for me to explain this and bring it up? Because I feel there are too many folks that don't take shots, and don't get to take game because they have never concidered taking a "non-broadside" shot. I used to be part of that very crowd. Then a good buddy of mine learned me different.

Now, this confidence didn't come from someone simply telling me that it could be done. It has come with thousands of shots, in every sort of shot angle imaginable. I've practiced and practiced, and studied a deer's anatomy. But if I don't feel comfortable with the shot, I don't shoot.

But one truth remains...A Deer can be Killed, effectively, no matter what the Position.

This deer was facing dead away from me at about 21yds. The shot hit just to the right of the spine, back at the little ribs, and exited out the chest. The arrow sliced thru the right lung and thru the top of the heart. Blood trail was amazing. All with a mechanical broadhead...100gr Grim Reaper. http://www.grimreaperbroadheads.com/RazorTip.html

If I hadn't practiced and been confident, this deer wouldn't be in the cooler awaiting the meat grinder.

101_0327.jpg

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Old November 6, 2009, 01:59 PM   #2
davlandrum
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From a treestand? I don't disagree that when you have height on your side, you have more options.

I do think us ground walkers are much more limited in ethical shot selection.
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Old November 6, 2009, 02:30 PM   #3
wpcexpert
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It absolutly depends on your relation to the deer. Maybe facing away would be the only shot that wouldn't be ideal. On one hunt, I had a doe quartering away at 30yds (on ground). When I shot, she jumped and turned facing away. The arrow went up thru her ham and came to rest in her heart. I wouldn't have taken that shot on purpose, but it worked out just fine. But like I said, if I don't like the shot, I won't shoot.

I just want to open peoples minds up a bit.
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Old November 6, 2009, 02:41 PM   #4
mikejonestkd
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I have found way too many long dead Deer with arrows in their hams, paunches, and sticking out of other non vital areas to agree with you. Yes, they may eventually die from an arrow in the gut, but not as consistently as a double lung/ heart shot broadside.

Hunting for me is much more than putting holes in animals, and i would not take a shot if I was not completely certain of the outcome.
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Old November 6, 2009, 02:52 PM   #5
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The possiblity of things going bad goes up the more you deviate from the standard shot. I would not hesitate to take the shot you described in the OP from a tree stand - it was still a heart/lung shot, just from a higher angle. I have shot deer that were dramatically up hill from me the same way.

I know a guy who has killed more elk with a bow than I ever will. In his "younger" days, he took a good bull with a Texas heart shot. Even though it killed the bull, he says it was the stupidest thing he has ever done hunting. The chances of wounding it and never recovering it were way more than the chances of it being successful.

Quote:
It has come with thousands of shots, in every sort of shot angle imaginable. I've practiced and practiced, and studied a deer's anatomy.
And that is what it really comes down to.
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Old November 6, 2009, 03:52 PM   #6
simonkenton
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For God's sake, the last thing we need is archery hunters encouraged to take bad shots.

Enough deer are lost to bad archery shots as is.
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Old November 6, 2009, 05:17 PM   #7
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Just to many deer in these parts to take a risky shot. That and I never wanted/needed a deer that bad. As bow hunting goes, hunt em long enough with a bow and chances are sooner or later you`ll not find one that you stuck. IMO,that feeling just isn`t worth a risky shot.
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Old November 6, 2009, 06:13 PM   #8
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+1 Shortwave
I completely agree.
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Old November 6, 2009, 06:23 PM   #9
Brian Pfleuger
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Unfortunately, most hunters do not have the experience, skill, equipment or knowledge to effectively make those shots. People who have what it takes already know it, and people who do not will not hear the part about equipment, skill, experience and knowledge.... and they'll just make bad shots.

These things are not to be encouraged.
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Old November 6, 2009, 09:14 PM   #10
wpcexpert
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Quote:
I have found way too many long dead Deer with arrows in their hams, paunches, and sticking out of other non vital areas to agree with you.
I'm not talking about just taking random shots at deer. Calculated shots that can certainly reach the vitals.

Quote:
Hunting for me is much more than putting holes in animals, and i would not take a shot if I was not completely certain of the outcome.
Didn't I say that too???

Quote:
Enough deer are lost to bad archery shots as is.
As opposed to there are no lost deer due to bad rifle shots?? I would wager to say that more deer are lost every year to rifles than bows.



All I can do is keep spreading the word, and emphasize the PRACTISE part. I'll continue to put deer down however they present themselves. And others can continue to watch them...because it's not the perfect TV shot.
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Old November 6, 2009, 09:26 PM   #11
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disagree, strongly

There are just to many variables when you start taking odd angle shots w/ a bow.

Arrows, despite current technology, are SLOW, and between the time the arrow leaves the bow, and arrives at the deer, a lot can go wrong.
Add to that deflection from branches, sights dinged, or just a plain muffed shot on the hunters part, and who knows what else, and you've got a cripple.

Stating that "deer can be killed from any angle", or "I can kill a deer from any angle" or whatever it was, is darn irresponsible.

All of us should do whatever we can to reduce cripples and increase recovery rates. Encouraging low percentage shots by use of mechanical wonder heads and claiming extreme ability is not conducive to the above.
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Old November 6, 2009, 11:54 PM   #12
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its all about practice in my opinion, i hunt white tails with a mosin m91 and the rifle is as accurate as todays rifles in my opinion.
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Old November 7, 2009, 02:56 AM   #13
T. O'Heir
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"...A deer can be killed, effectively, no matter what the position..." Yep. If your deer anatomy knowledge is good enough and you can place the right bullet in the 'vitals' and have the shooting skill to be able to place the shot exactly and have a rifle/ammo combination that will do it. A 'going away' shot is fine, if you can place the shot in the back of the neck.
"...more deer are lost every year to rifles than bows..." A bow is a different thing. Archers tend to be better hunters and don't take shots they known they can't make. Bow shots are generally taken at much closer ranges. Mind you, not all bow hunters practice enough. Neither do rifle hunters.
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Old November 7, 2009, 03:41 AM   #14
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Quote:
Mind you, not all bow hunters practice enough. Neither do rifle hunters.
That my friend, is the most sensible statement in this thread...
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Old November 7, 2009, 07:15 AM   #15
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Vaild points from everybody

Any shot; arrow or bullet, can kill a deer. As you look at quartering or straight on shots, you greatly diminsh the effective zone and a small error can equal a missed or injured deer that is not recovered. While it sounds and looks like the OP is capable of this type of shooting, it is often beyond the means and capabilities of the average hunter and for this reason encouraging it is not really a good thing. At a sharp angle like this deer was taken, an arrow could have been easily deflected or not allowed the mechanical blades to open effectively which would both spell disaster for the deer.
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Old November 7, 2009, 07:37 AM   #16
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Ive been bowhunting for over 25 yrs and have came a long ways in one area,deer anatomy and it pays off. I personally no of no bow hunter who takes bad shots because it dosnt pay to. Me personally? the weirdest shot i ever took in bowhunting was in 1998. I killed a nice 6 pt in Mi that yr., how? with a shot to the kidneys dropped like a mule. The deer itself had stopped behind an average oak tree and its chest area was completely covered by the tree itself, i was at full draw anticipating him walking on thru. Well he froze behind the tree and as any bowhunter can tell you, when at full draw for 30 to 60 seconds it really wears on you. At full draw for roughly 30 to 40 seconds arm getting weak suddenly kidney came to mind, adjusted shot and let go and took the steaks home that night and i never have forgot that shot. Bowhunters understand 3 things,practice yearly, deer anatomy, and angles,you better understand angles, bowhunting over the yrs has taught me patience,and dont take bad shots. That kidney shot by the way was devastating, deer went hardly 5 yds. Learn and understand, it will vastly improve you regular deer hunts with rifles and shotguns.
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Old November 7, 2009, 08:38 AM   #17
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I think with practice anyone can make difficult shots. But honestly, how many people do that kind of practicing?
Go to any of your sports stores and see how many people are just getting around to buying targets and all the latest, greatest, deer killing supplies a few weeks before they are supposed to hunt.
Like a previous poster stated about finding deer later with arrows (and bullet holes) in them because of poorly placed shots, it is a waste of a good animal and, in my opinion, unethical.
I remember being called to the elementary school on an air force base because there was a dead dear with an arrow sticking through it's neck. That was a wonderful sight for those kids to see as they started school that morning. I am sure it endeared hunting to them.
My personal favorite is the deer found when cutting corn. We found three deer with arrows in them in one twenty acre field. (Here in Missouri, we usually have the corn and beans cut before rifle season, but I have found deer after a late harvest with bullet holes.)
The first impression I got when I read your original post was "go ahead and take those less than ideal shots." While I do agree that you can take less than ideal shots, I do not feel that you properly emphasized the training/practice aspect of the task in the first post. This is not a slam against you, but a word of advice to those of us who are reading this posting: Practice, Practice and then Practice some more.
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Old November 7, 2009, 10:25 AM   #18
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I have seen a lot more deer lost percentage wise with a bow than with a rifle. You can be very precise at 20 yards, but anything beyond that and there is no guarantee that the deer is going to be the same place as when you released the arrow. I have seen on film deer completely squat an arrow at 30 yards. Depends on how nervous the deer already is. Shooting 4 inch groups at 50 yards, which I can do, is meaningless when a deer can move several feet in the time it takes for an arrow to go 50 yards.

Assuming you were in a tree stand, shooting straight down on a deer at 21 yards from behind is not much more difficult than broadside.
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Old November 7, 2009, 10:30 AM   #19
wpcexpert
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Quote:
do not feel that you properly emphasized the training/practice aspect of the task in the first post.
Point well taken. It looking back, Practice was not, but should have been, the primary point.

Ok, let me try again.

Deer can be killed quickly and effectively in just about any shot angle. But to do so, you must practice these un-ideal angles vigorously. You must also have the equipment to do so. If you are uncomfortable with a shot or it's angle...DO NOT SHOOT.
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Old November 9, 2009, 12:11 AM   #20
cnimrod
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Yeah maybe but, important to know what you can't hit as well as what you can.
Texas heart shot - i'm guessing that's thru the little brown ring?
Years ago a buddy talked his wife into hunting. first (and last) time out she took a really nice buck that way. kind of doubt she even had her eyes open when she shot. not recommended. teaching my son to hunt now- which means patience and waiting for that high percentage shot. I tell him my mistakes hopefully that will make him better than me.
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Old November 11, 2009, 06:28 PM   #21
James R. Burke
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I dont bow hunt, but I guess from a tree it's awhole differnt story than on the ground. I believe shot placement is key with every caliber, not saying you cant get it, but you need to know what will work. I shot a bear once walking away from me went in the backend and came out his chest, but I knew the gun well. A .416 Rem mag with a solid copper hollow point barnes 325 grain moving at 2800 f.p.s.
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Old November 11, 2009, 07:38 PM   #22
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Quote:
I believe that I can efectively kill a deer no matter what position the body is facing. I'm confident in my equipment and abilities to do so. And I believe that you can too.
Well, that is good that you are that confident in your abilities and have the skills to match. As noted above, too many hunters don't. You cursorily dismissed shots to the haunches and such as random shots. Hell, I watched one of the blooper shows on OLN that included many of the shots that missed and missed by experienced hunters, guides, and even the host. They weren't random shots either, but by golly they were very poor shots.

Quote:
Why is it important for me to explain this and bring it up? Because I feel there are too many folks that don't take shots, and don't get to take game because they have never concidered taking a "non-broadside" shot.
For the life of me, I did not realize that this was an issue. All those hunters seeing lots of deer and not shooting.

Quote:
But one truth remains...A Deer can be Killed, effectively, no matter what the Position.
Sure, but then it is a question of ethics, quickness of the kill, how much meat is damaged, etc.
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Old November 11, 2009, 11:10 PM   #23
wpcexpert
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Quote:
You cursorily dismissed shots to the haunches and such as random shots
The shot that went up her ham and into her heart wasn't on purpose. She jumped over a log just as I shot. She was quartering away at the time of release.

Quote:
Sure, but then it is a question of ethnics, quickness of the kill, how much meat is damaged, etc.
Since when did Race become an issue in hunting? I agree. I think that some folks may have misunderstood "Can be Killed". I mean that they can be taken with quick clean kills. The deer in the pictures, 60yds and less than 8 seconds. The doe with the arrow up her butt, 40 yds and less than 8 seconds.

I get a pass thru 99% of the time. With a 425gr arrow at +290fps. That is producing over 79 foot lbs of KE. So I don't think I've got any problems reaching the vitals from any angle.

The one shot I don't like and rarely take is under 7 yds from my treestand. Those single lung hits are the pits. If I have to take a close shot, I'll try and get a frontal for access to the heart.

Look, all I'm saying is that the full education is just as important as the right education.
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Old November 12, 2009, 10:40 AM   #24
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Quote:
Race become an issue in hunting

I suspect everybody knew what he meant.


Unfortunately we won't get a picture of the deer you will lose. I have followed several deer blood trails until they clotted from shots by even state archery champs who knew thay could make some awkward shot.
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Old November 12, 2009, 02:03 PM   #25
Daryl
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I don't usually wait for a broadside shot. If it comes first, then I'll certainly take it, but I generally don't waste a lot of time waiting for it.

That said, I like clean kills. I want quick, and I want clean. Anything that perforates the intestines isn't going to be considered clean, and the same holds true for the bladder.

Neck and chest shots are the norm. From a rear angle, I'll usually break the neck or wait for a quartering shot.

And I don't think I've ever failed to get a deer because of passing on a shot angle.

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