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Old November 5, 2009, 10:25 AM   #51
madcratebuilder
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Quote:
What if you have to reload?
What if the first round ball hits the assailant right between the eyes?

I would just use my 1861 Navy to fight my way to my gun safe and pull out my Thompson M1972A1 with the 100 round drum and proceed to shoot up the whole damn house
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Old November 5, 2009, 12:05 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XD Gunner
Quote:
I also agree that there are better tools for the job but if you have one & possibly keep it loaded & you are proficient in it's use, then why not if it was the closest one to get your hands on at the time?
What if you have to reload?
In a sence of a Remington designed C&B Revolver the cylinder swap is very easy & can be done faster than even speed loaders for a D/A revolver "in the right hands" but like Madcratebuilder I'd be fighting twords a more formidable modern firearm like my Remington 1100 or one of my .45ACP's for instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundance44s
What if a cap fragment jams the works after one shot ?
What if the cap pops and No boom ? You would sound like you are shooting a cap gun .....as in toy gun
Granted my black powder guns are not prone to fail , but strange things do happen with them ...like Murphys law ..some of the problems I have had were due to the nature of the beast , other problems have been from poor quality control on the part of the maker .
One might be as well off with a steak knife or a ball bat .
If it were all I had or could have I suppose I would consider it .
Other wise I want the best I can afford to defend my life and the life of my loved ones .
My first choice isn`t cap & ball nor is it made in Italy .
My choice at home is a SXS loaded with 00 buck with 5 extra shells on a stock holder ....its a real crowd pleaser ...hard to beat at close range in the home .
There is always the possibility of a jam or FTF in all firearms like for instance a stove pipe jam on a semi auto, or just a cartridge that did not have powder in it when the primer was struck, it can happen even in modern firearms.
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Old November 5, 2009, 12:33 PM   #53
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Yes it can be done but why? There are too many possible "murphies" with a c&b and a bp cartridge makes too much smoke to be fired indoors. If you don't do it with the first you will be lucky if you can find the target for the second. There are just too many reliable modern firearms to trust your life and limb to a bp firearm.
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Old November 5, 2009, 12:46 PM   #54
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You can take out alot of the Murphys law with a SXS with 2 triggers , so thats 2 triggers and loads that would have to fail .
Looks like I have my bases covered
And with a plus , my SXS is made in the USA and never failed me ......I can`t say that about my Italian made collection .
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Old November 5, 2009, 03:31 PM   #55
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The C&B pistol is a deadly weapon, but for HD I use a 12 GA. 2 #7s and 3 00s. Nuff Said?
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Old November 5, 2009, 04:30 PM   #56
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Yes it can be done but why?
I think this is the consensus here, that it is not the best for the job, but would be more than lethal enough for most situations, and adequate if given no better options.

Are there still places in this country where about all that one can legally possess is a black powder arm? I seem to remember there were a few states back in the 1980s that were that way. Maybe they still are.
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Old November 5, 2009, 04:33 PM   #57
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omg

it is spelled Defense, unless you are European
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Old November 5, 2009, 07:09 PM   #58
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I believe in new york, BP is pretty close to the only thing you can easily get. I know that in Chicago and Oak Park that you can't even have BPs. And why are were arguing over how to spell defence?
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Old November 6, 2009, 10:44 PM   #59
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For those who like a pistol in each hand, how about one of these in the right hand and a .45 ACP in the left. A 435 grain maxi hunter would be quite an introduction!

Last edited by Delmar; November 6, 2009 at 10:50 PM.
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Old November 7, 2009, 11:01 AM   #60
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Honestly i don't think i would want to keep my revolver for hd. Occasionally the caps don't fire, powder is liable to get wet, its messy, super slow loading... the list goes on. Modern ammunition is much more reliable and when I'm in HD I don't want to question whether or not my gun is going to function.
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Old November 8, 2009, 11:07 AM   #61
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Quote:
What if the first round ball hits the assailant right between the eyes?
Seriously, how likely is that, for the average person, under that kind of stress? It is FAR more likely that you have to reload.
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Old November 9, 2009, 01:18 AM   #62
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This is a question out of curiosity, more so than asking for advice or to stir the pot. But I was wondering if anybody uses a BP gun for home defense. I ask because I recently rigged up the holster from the Halloween costume to by bed and found that my makes a good "night stand" holster. And got to thinking: is BP a viable home defense tool? And does anybody use it?

What are your thoughts? I personally think I'd trust a .451 caliber lead ball fired at 10 feet to stop an assailant more than a 9mm FMJ or JHP or a .22LR hollowpoint. Interesting thoughts on this one.
If someone wants to use a C&B for home defense then I say more power to them. Why not have various guns available for use around the house? And if a black powder gun fits into that scenario then that should only be viewed as a plus. There's no doubt that C&B's are a viable option and deploying them as part of an overall home defensive battery is strictly a matter of personal choice and comfort.
LEO's are very well armed with modern pistols and the shots they fire under stress miss the target 80%-90% of the time. So in the end what makes any gun more effective than another?
No one criticizes the Amish for their lifestyle choices, so similarly a C&B is an acceptable, effective and bona fide deadly weapon, and people who choose them know full well what they're doing and what their capabilities are.

The info. below is contained in post #29 in the following thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...ighlight=45-70

Quote:
Hi
Ed Sanow published a list of cap & ball .31, .36 & .44 round ball versus modern calibre one shot stops in the Feb 1998 copy of Handguns. I have pasted it but it's a bit messed up.

Regards,
kologha


Cap and Ball Ballistics

By Ed Sanow

Handguns February 1998

Cap and Ball Wound Ballistics


Calibre
Firearm
Bullet
FFFg
Velocity
Energy
1 Shot Stop

.31 Pocket
Baby Dragoon
46gr RB
11gr
821 fps
69 ft lb
30%

.36 Navy
Colt 1851 Navy
70gr RB
22gr
1038 fps
189 ft lb
59%

.44 Army
1861 New Army
141gr RB
35gr
935 fps
274 ft lb
75%

.44 Walker
1847 Walker
141gr RB
60gr
1287 fps
519 ft lb
87%


.44 Calibre RB Ballistics



0.44
1860 Sheriff
141gr RB
30gr
756 fps
179 ft lb
59%

0.44
1861 New Army
141gr RB
35gr
935 fps
274 ft lb
75%

0.44
Ruger Old Army
141gr RB
40gr
1031 fps
333 ft lb
79%

0.44
1848 Dragoon
141gr RB
50gr
1181 fps
437 ft lb
85%

0.44
1847 Walker
141gr RB
60gr
1287 fps
519 ft lb
87%


Cap and Ball versus Modern Cartridges

.31 Pocket
Baby Dragoon
46gr RB
11gr
821 fps
69 ft lb
30%

.22LR
Revolver
37gr LHP
FL
975 fps
78 ft lb
29%

.36 Navy
Colt 1851 Navy
70gr RB
22gr
1038 fps
189 ft lb
59%

9mm S
Semi Auto Pistol
88gr JHP
FL
1000 fps
189 ft lb
59%

.44 Army
New Army
141gr RB
35gr
935 fps
274 ft lb
75%

.44 Spl
Revolver
200gr LHP
FL
810 fps
292 ft lb
73%

.44 Walker
Walker 1847
141gr RB
60gr
1287 fps
519 ft lb
87%

.41 Mag
Revolver
175gr JHP
FL
1250 fps
608 ft lb
89%

Last edited by arcticap; November 9, 2009 at 07:44 PM.
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Old November 9, 2009, 07:29 AM   #63
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Thanks arcticap. So there is nothing magical about cap and ball being super duper extra strong lethal stuff after all, huh? Imagine that.
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Old November 9, 2009, 10:18 AM   #64
Raider2000
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Thanx arcticap, goes to show that even tho they are antiquated & obsolete that those old fashioned C&B Revolvers can in fact in the right experienced hands if need be potent enough to defend one's life but again as I said, that'd be as a secondary firearm to what I already have in my arsonal.
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Old November 9, 2009, 05:55 PM   #65
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I keep my 1858 uberti in my night stand loaded for self defense but I also shoot this gun every two weeks and clean and service it constantly. I think if a person takes the time and trouble to be proficient with a black powder pistol they can make great self defense weapons. Now days with ammo being so hard to get a hold of its nice to own a black powder firearm because you can always find percussion caps and black powder or black powder substitutes for them. As far as reloading is concerned watch pale rider!
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Old November 10, 2009, 01:34 AM   #66
Model-P
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Quote:
.........you can always find percussion caps and black powder or black powder substitutes for them.
Black powder can be found around here, but percussion caps are right up there with primers as far as rarity. Around here it's better to stick with flint locks for the time being
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Old November 10, 2009, 01:58 AM   #67
SigP6Carry
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I can buy primers where I grocery shop... and I don't grocery shop at Wal-mart.

Anyway, I noticed Arcticap's list of stats was used to argue both ways... interesting turn of stats. Thanks CNN style Stat usage.
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Old November 10, 2009, 04:06 AM   #68
Delmar
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Quote:
...but percussion caps are right up there with primers as far as rarity.
Get yourself a forester tap o cap

It is desgined to work with cap gun "roll caps" Which I hear work fine. I haven't got one yet but I do reload my own large pistol primers, with strike anywhere matches It works well, but compound fromthe matches draw moisture. I just pop them in the food dehydrator overnight and they are good as new.
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Old November 10, 2009, 08:14 AM   #69
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Quote:
Anyway, I noticed Arcticap's list of stats was used to argue both ways... interesting turn of stats. Thanks CNN style Stat usage.
Actually, Raider2000 and I did not present opposing views and were not arguing both ways. He played off my post in order to argue that the guns are viable for home/self defense and I completely agree with that, in spite of all his caveats. The stats, however, don't show that the BP guns are particularly good, certainly not being better that modern loadings for comparable calibers when comparable at the one-shot level. That certainly doesn't mean you can't blast away at an intruder. Simonkenton and one other here seem to believe that BP guns have a lethality that is better than modern guns and cartridges and that just does not seem to be the case.
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Old November 10, 2009, 09:45 AM   #70
arcticap
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I don't think that BP revolvers are more lethal but only that they can be made to work effectively if needed.
The stats are just what's available for comparison.
Granted the 88 grain bullet in the 9mm loading is somewhat deceptive. But the deterrent factor, shot placement and the simple fact is that not every burglar or intruder is armed and desiring a gunfight.
In the end a gun is a gun, it's man against man, who is going to shoot first and where will the bullet hit?
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Old November 10, 2009, 10:02 AM   #71
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I'm new to this and trying to figure the stats out. What is "1 Shot Stop" and how would that figure be obtained?

Also, does one of the numbers on these figures address the likelihood that the bullet would go through the recipient and into someone (or something) behind them? I'm thinking that might be an important consideration in home defense, since I have other family members in other parts of the house that could conceivably be behind the intruder.
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Old November 10, 2009, 10:18 AM   #72
arcticap
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The figures don't really address that except by inference by showing figures for some of the .44 cap & balls being downloaded with less powder.
IIRC the NYC PD started using hollow points in their .38 Specials during the 1990's because of the number of pass throughs using solid round nose [158 gr.] bullets. And they use 9mm hollow points too.

Last edited by arcticap; November 11, 2009 at 01:59 AM.
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Old November 10, 2009, 12:45 PM   #73
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Double Naught, you said it shows they're nothing special and then Raider said that it shows they can be used for home defense, neither of you contradicted each other, but you used the same stats to come to conclusions that seemed counter to one and other. I just thought it was funny.
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Old November 10, 2009, 11:57 PM   #74
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If you notice my signature I have BP revolvers & rifles, .22 revolvers & rifles, centerfire pistol and cartridge shotguns. All are loaded and kept in various locations all over my house. I do not carry a weapon when I am in my house, I figure I can get to one if it be needed. My cap & ball revolvers just give me more guns to use if needed. they are just part of the overall defense strategy.
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Old November 11, 2009, 08:47 AM   #75
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If you notice my signature I have BP revolvers & rifles, .22 revolvers & rifles, centerfire pistol and cartridge shotguns. All are loaded and kept in various locations all over my house. I do not carry a weapon when I am in my house, I figure I can get to one if it be needed. My cap & ball revolvers just give me more guns to use if needed. they are just part of the overall defense strategy.
I guess I better call first, before I stop by to say Hi.
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