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Old November 3, 2009, 10:59 AM   #26
simonkenton
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They said nothing was better because they were fixed in their ways, stuck in their comfort zone of what was appropriate, unwilling to move on with better technology.

And a cap and ball during the Civil War was considered some of the best technology of the day, no doubt, but times have moved on and better guns and ammunition with better slugs are available.



Nein! This story posted by Gatofeo stated that these guys had tried the cartridge pistols. There was a .38 that was popular at the time, but these Civil War veterans said that the cap and ball round ball was a better man killer.
My own experience backs up this point of view.
I have killed over 60 deer with the 30-06.
I have killed 7 deer and 7 wild hogs with a patched round ball from a .50 muzzleloader.
Any day of the week the patched round ball is a better deer and hog killer.
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Old November 3, 2009, 12:03 PM   #27
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As an added consideration/question, if there were to be a fire in the home (nothing to do with home invasion) would a person be less likely to have stray bullets flying if they had a cartridge gun in a holster by their bed or if they had a C&B pistol?
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Old November 3, 2009, 12:43 PM   #28
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Heck, NO! Cap-and-ball revolvers are not good for home defense. You might kill someone with that thing, and we all know the idea is to wound so they can sue!

Quote:
i assume you're talking about a c&b pistol?
which if that's the case, no i don't think it's a good idea to trust something like that.
you would have to leave the thing capped at all times and that's just not totally cool.
At first, I thought you were saying this to mean that a capped cap-and-ball revolver just sitting holstered by a bed was somehow less safe or reliable than a capped cartridge revolver. But then you say,

Quote:
there would be two nipples, over two charged cylinders, with two exposed caps.
caps that could fall off, or worse catch an inopportune bump or knock.
depending on the model gun, it might only be one cylinder, but still........

these things are not regulated by drop tests.
Now you've confused me. Here you are implying that a capped cap-and-ball revolver is less safe than a capped cartridge revolver while being handled.

If you've done much cap-and-ball shooting with the correct components, you'd know that a properly fitting cap is highly unlikely to "fall off" a nipple. It's a real pain in the rear to uncap such a revolver using a finger nail or even a tool.

As for drop tests, load up all six chambers of a cap-and-ball revolver and set the hammer on the catch between chambers. Then go drop your gun, hammer first, on concrete. Bet it doesn't go "BOOM" 100 out of 100. Better yet, load five chambers and set the hammer on the nipple of the unloaded chamber and do the same "drop test". Bet it doesn't go "BOOM" 110 out of 100!

Quote:
Looks like some folks don`t watch the news , guys this is 2009
That's right, guys. Black powder turns more and more impotent at the turn of each century. Didn't y'all know that?

Quote:
I`ll try to explain my 2009 way of thinking about home defence .
I have a friend that thought a black powder hawken rifle was good enough for home defence , he lives rual area , no high crime district ....
A Hawken?!!! You are comparing a single shot rifle to a cap-and-ball revolver??! Why not compare it to a modern defense revolver like a double action Smith & Wesson? What's the difference? Obviously a rifle is not a very good defense weapon within the confines of a room in the first place, let alone a SINGLE SHOT Not a good comparison at all.

Aaanyyywaaay, a cap-and-ball revolver would not be my first choice as a home defense weapon, given anything better. However, a cap-and-ball revolver is just as formidable today as it has always been, and I pity the poor fool who has to personally find this out the hard way.
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Old November 3, 2009, 01:22 PM   #29
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My thoughts exactly, if the person knows their chosen weapon is key to having a fighting chance in the first place regardless if they have a C&B Revolver or a modern day handgun.

I too wouldn't suggest having a C&B Revolver as the primary defence firearm but if it was the weapon that got into the hands first I wouldn't feel under gunned by no means.
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Old November 3, 2009, 02:14 PM   #30
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Is there a resource somewhere that reviews actual cases of self or home defense and summarizes them? For example, if 90% of the real life instances of home defense involve less than five shots fired by the defender at a distance of 20 feet or less (the size of a living room) then I would imagine CAS shooters could possibly do well regardless of whether they're shooting C&B or cartridge rounds as long as they're using the revolvers they're used to using. However, if real life is vastly different - for example if most real life home defense instances involve 17 rounds fired by the defender - or multiple assailants with multiple semi-automatic pistols - then that might suggest C&B revolvers would be very inadequate (unless you were the kind of person who could handle the stress and aim *very* well under fire). Where can you find what's realistic to expect and what's an extremely unlikely scenario?
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Old November 3, 2009, 02:24 PM   #31
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Quote:
(3) Only load 5 Shots!
Any C&B revolver no matter which one you have has no real safety by comparison to todays firearms so keeping the hammer on an empty chamber while in your house is just a safty suggestion, if you need more than 5 shots to get rid of some B/G then you ned more than a pistol son because you are in a WAR.
Most all C&B revolvers have a notch between cylinders that capture the hammer (Remingtons) or a pin between cylinders(Colts) that the hammer rests on. They are just as safe as any SA center fire with it's hammer on a empty cylinder. Seal the caps and long term storage is not a issue.

If you plan on using a gun for SD you better be familiar with it, be it C&B or center fire. A C&B would not be my first choice but if it's all I had I would not feel under gunned.
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Old November 3, 2009, 06:21 PM   #32
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As for drop tests, load up all six chambers of a cap-and-ball revolver and set the hammer on the catch between chambers. Then go drop your gun, hammer first, on concrete. Bet it doesn't go "BOOM" 100 out of 100. Better yet, load five chambers and set the hammer on the nipple of the unloaded chamber and do the same "drop test". Bet it doesn't go "BOOM" 110 out of 100!
right. but what about that capped cylinder hanging out in the breeze there?
can you guarantee that nothing hard will ever come in contact with it....ever?
an 1860 is tucked in there a bit better than 1858, but still.
if it's all you have, well then it is indeed better than nothing. but if it's nothing more than a range toy why play with fire when it comes to protecting those you care about?

and the cloud of smoke, what happens if you employ that tactic of flash bang, and the goblin starts poking and hoping with his 9mm that carries 15 or 16 rds?
i mean seriously if you need to pull the trigger, game time has passed. when you squeeze it's stop the threat time.

if you feel comfortable with using one for hd, that's one thing, but encouraging somebody else to do the same, that may or may not be as familiar with the gun is foolishness.
in one of the posts on the first page the OP is asking if it's ok to load 6 and keep the hammer down on one or at half cock. so right there he is not totally familiar with the safe handling of them.

i'm sorry but home defense is no joke. maybe you never need to do it. but if only ever even once you need to strike in anger, why would you rely on a weapon that stacks the odds against you before you even start.
i would think taking steps to stack in your favor would rank pretty high on the list. starting off with a six gun, that is most safely stored with only five cylinders live, is not starting on the right foot.
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Old November 3, 2009, 06:38 PM   #33
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Must be the romance of the old west fogging the mind that would make a man think his sexy 1860 Colt cap gun is all he needs in a modern world gun fight .
If these cap guns are all one needs to defend ones self explain to me why our our police now carry 9mm with 16 round mags .
Why heck Barney all you need in one bullet , and you need to keep it in your shirt pocket .
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Old November 3, 2009, 07:34 PM   #34
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If we take your scenario as the standard we all need two guys on guard duty plus 3 fully loaded AK's. Is that what you're recommending? I didn't think so, but you did say that story explained your way of thinking about 2009 home defense.

Back off the hyperbole. Nowhere in this thread or elsewhere in this or any other forum has anyone even remotely suggested that a single shot bp rifle was an adequate defense against 3 aggressors with semiautomatic weapons. You don't win arguments by misstating your opponents position with an absurdity. Unless, of course, you're a professional politician.
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Old November 3, 2009, 08:21 PM   #35
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Lead C&B-BP or a modern 9mm with premium hollowpoint not even close. C&B 1800's 9mm hp 2009. What r ya thinking?
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Old November 3, 2009, 08:21 PM   #36
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Nein! This story posted by Gatofeo stated that these guys had tried the cartridge pistols. There was a .38 that was popular at the time, but these Civil War veterans said that the cap and ball round ball was a better man killer.
Well, you got me there. Post Civil War cartridge rounds (which were BP) are obviously much better than any modern cartridges and so since some old fogies from the Civil War preferred cap and ball over BP cartridges, then cap and ball must be superior to anything we have today.


Quote:
My own experience backs up this point of view.
I have killed over 60 deer with the 30-06.
I have killed 7 deer and 7 wild hogs with a patched round ball from a .50 muzzleloader.
Any day of the week the patched round ball is a better deer and hog killer.
Well, if a .50 patched ball muzzle loader is better for killing deer and hog than your claimed 30.06, then a cap and ball revolver must be better for self defense than any modern handgun with a modern smokeless powder cartridge. I don't know why this wasn't clear to me previously.

Of course, Wyatt Earp stated that the best way to stop a man was with a gut shot, yet for some reason we go with COM and center of chest shots nowadays...and Wyatt Earp was a man who knew killing.

Well, I am off to ride ole Betsy down to the telegraph office to send a message to the territorial Governor to let him know what I have learned this evening.
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Old November 3, 2009, 10:15 PM   #37
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"Yes", a cap-and-ball revolver is more than adequate for most home defense purposes. "No", a cap gun is not.

A "cap gun" is a toy for those here who are confused about the terms. Since there are a few here who don't seem all that familiar with the potentials of black powder arms, here's a little lesson in firearms basics for you guys. The term "cap-and-ball revolver" refers to a black powder revolver design which is primed with what is called a "percussion cap", and the projectile is usually a lead sphere, call a "ball". The propellant used is black powder, which really is an exlosive, not merely a "propellant".

The only difference between a cap-and-ball revolver and a cartridge revolver is that the cap-and-ball revolver uses the walls of it's cylinders to contain the charges and projectiles, while a cartridge gun uses separate brass cases to hold these components, as well as the percussion cap, which is called a "primer" in centerfire cartridges. A primer in a case is, for all practical discussion here, the same as a percusion cap on a nipple (Yes, for you that don't know it, "nipple" is a legitimate black powder term). The chain of firing is the same: hammer strikes priming charge, priming charge ignites main charge, main charge burns and produces gases that propel the projectile down the barrel. It really doesn't make any difference whether the components are self-contained, or contained only within the walls of the chambers; That projectile is on it's deadly way toward the shooter's target in either case.

Now that you have some knowledge and we should all be on the same page, do yourselves a favor and understand that a cap-and-ball firearm is extremely lethal. A cap gun, it is not.
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Old November 3, 2009, 11:28 PM   #38
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MyKeal & Model P Please go back and read the title of this thread , it doesn`t say anything about Cap & Ball revolvers for home defence .
It says BP for HD
would that not mean Black Powder for Home Defence ?
In my mind Black power guns Rock Locks =( flint locks to Model P ) and Cap Guns =( for Model P meaning every thing from cap & ball revolvers to front stuffing single shot rifles and every thing in between that requires a cap )
Now that wasn`t so hard was it .
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Old November 3, 2009, 11:34 PM   #39
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Quote:
is BP a viable home defense tool? And does anybody use it?
Maybe, and Not personally.

I don't like to take unnecessary chances with my, or my loved ones lives. I personally deem a BP pistol an unneeded liability. There are great advancements in handgun reliability, and ammunition type, not too mention handgun power and speed. With all that being said, my HD weapon of choice is a Remington 870 with 00Buck in the waiting, and slugs as backup.

One could argue that it is viable, but there are BETTER tools for the job at hand.
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Old November 3, 2009, 11:36 PM   #40
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no offense intended, but stupidity wasnt the reason that peopel kept using bp revolvers past expiration of rollin whits patent.

colt charged uncle sams checkbook 25-30 dollars for every colt percussion revolver sold to him during the civil war. At that time most soldiers were barely making 15 dollars amonth for the privilege of dying for a war they didnt beleive in.
When colt started producing cartridge revolvers, ie masons and richards, etc, he was still charging 25-30 dollars for each weapon. For normal citizens, 20 dollars a month in pay was extremely wealthy, many werent making more then 15 a month in some areas.
as a result pappy and uncle johny were happy to keep carrying their gov issued percussion revolver because it was still accurate, still able to kill a man, and could still knock a horse down. Also, economics proved that it was cheaper to purchase a pound of bp and some percussion caps then to try to keep a good supply of cartridges on hand.


Also, the few shootings involving a percussion revolver that have happened in the last 12 years in my state always have ended up with "home robber killed after being shot with col. colts equalizer". While i can show you several articles about shootings involing semi autos in 9mm, 40sw and 45acp that involved multiple chest shots with jhp that resulted in injury but no deaths.
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Old November 4, 2009, 01:22 AM   #41
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Springfieldkid, perhaps you are confused by the terms. "Cap-and-ball" refers to revolvers ("pistol" is also a historically proper term for cap-and-ball revolvers, and many still refer to "cap-and-ball revolvers" as "cap-and-ball pistols", hence maybe your confusion?). "Cap lock" is the proper term when referring to single shot pistols, rifles, muskets, and shotguns using percussion cap ignition. But, for goodness sake, don't call them "cap guns"!

BTW, many of us who are familiar with black powder arms most likely already knew from the OP's first post that he was referring to a cap-and-ball revolver, since .451" is a ball size used almost exclusively in cap-and-ball revolvers. I wouldn't expect anyone unfamiliar with the subject to know that, or to even know the capabilities of black powder arms in general. Stick around and learn something on the subject, buy a cap-and-ball revolver, and have some real fun while gaining some insite on how well-armed our forefathers really were.

Last edited by Model-P; November 4, 2009 at 01:50 AM. Reason: Edited to be more diplomatic.
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Old November 4, 2009, 02:02 AM   #42
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Brian45, this is what I actually said:
Quote:
But, why is keeping a BP Revolver capped a bad idea? You could keep one chamber unloaded and hammer down on that one or leave it in half cock with 6 chambers. Or do the old "trick it into setting down between nipples" move.
That doesn't sound like I don't know what I'm talking about. Also, I've always wondering about the half-cock position on the hammer's way down. Isn't that the safe carry position or is it some kind of stop that exists solely as a byproduct of the first stop?

I'm also amazed at how much violent debate this topic has sparked and how amazing it is that a .50 Hawkins couldn't stand up to three guys with AKs. I would'a thought that Hawkins would have won out. Just kidding.
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Old November 4, 2009, 05:51 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by XD Gunner
Maybe, and Not personally.

I don't like to take unnecessary chances with my, or my loved ones lives. I personally deem a BP pistol an unneeded liability. There are great advancements in handgun reliability, and ammunition type, not too mention handgun power and speed. With all that being said, my HD weapon of choice is a Remington 870 with 00Buck in the waiting, and slugs as backup.

One could argue that it is viable, but there are BETTER tools for the job at hand.
You are right, there are a huge number a very reilable & very capable firearms out there due to developement & technology that would be better suited as a S/D or even a H/D firearm but I've also had my hands a few sidearms that were supposed to be a great S/D pistol & some of them would jam way too often & just like C&B Revolvers where a possibility of a FTF could occur I've also experienced FTF's with modern store bought ammunitnion to, Through the near 30 years of me using Muzzle loaders including C&B Revolvers I've learned how to load them to be reliable in most weather conditions & accurate to within a resonable distance.

I also agree that there are better tools for the job but if you have one & possibly keep it loaded & you are proficient in it's use, then why not if it was the closest one to get your hands on at the time?
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Old November 4, 2009, 06:36 AM   #44
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I've always wondering about the half-cock position on the hammer's way down. Isn't that the safe carry position or is it some kind of stop that exists solely as a byproduct of the first stop?
The half cock position is not a safety in any gun. It depends solely on the integrity of the sear, a thin, hardened (and thus brittle) piece of metal in the trigger mechanism. Dropping the gun such that the hammer strikes a hard object could break the sear and allow the hammer to fall. The half cock position is for loading and maintenance only. The only safe position is with the hammer down on an uncapped nipple or open frizzen, or, on some revolvers, a special safety pin/notch between chambers.
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Old November 4, 2009, 07:19 PM   #45
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Thanks, never thought of that. I appreciate the info.
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Old November 5, 2009, 06:40 AM   #46
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I would'a thought that Hawkins would have won out...
Not in close quarters, but out in the woods, from a distance, perhaps.
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Old November 5, 2009, 07:07 AM   #47
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It's his story. He can make it up any way he wants to.
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Old November 5, 2009, 08:17 AM   #48
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Also, the few shootings involving a percussion revolver that have happened in the last 12 years in my state always have ended up with "home robber killed after being shot with col. colts equalizer".
To what would you attribute this amazing 100% lethality performance? Have any citations? I find nothing via Google.
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Old November 5, 2009, 10:02 AM   #49
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Quote:
I also agree that there are better tools for the job but if you have one & possibly keep it loaded & you are proficient in it's use, then why not if it was the closest one to get your hands on at the time?
What if you have to reload?
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Old November 5, 2009, 10:24 AM   #50
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What if a cap fragment jams the works after one shot ?
What if the cap pops and No boom ? You would sound like you are shooting a cap gun .....as in toy gun
Granted my black powder guns are not prone to fail , but strange things do happen with them ...like Murphys law ..some of the problems I have had were due to the nature of the beast , other problems have been from poor quality control on the part of the maker .
One might be as well off with a steak knife or a ball bat .
If it were all I had or could have I suppose I would consider it .
Other wise I want the best I can afford to defend my life and the life of my loved ones .
My first choice isn`t cap & ball nor is it made in Italy .
My choice at home is a SXS loaded with 00 buck with 5 extra shells on a stock holder ....its a real crowd pleaser ...hard to beat at close range in the home .
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