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Old October 30, 2009, 10:29 PM   #1
hkkilla
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AK-47 or AR-15

So I was having a conversation with a fellow gun loving friend today, and we got on the topic of intermediate-caliber, semi-automatic Homeland Defense rifles... let me also say my friend is a "tacticool" guy, and get 95% of his firearm knowledge and range time with ex-military friends (although he never served). Long story short, outside of GLOCK, M-4s and Remington 870s he knows pretty close to nothing about guns, and does not believe in fun range shooting and hates the .22 LR round.

I on the other hand love all guns and love nothing more than a fun day at the range, although I have taken a couple of Tactical Carbine and Pistol courses, and love them too, not all shooting must be done in a training venue. So we got to talking and eventually arguing about the AR/AK topic. He hates AK47s with a passion, although he has never fired one. They are the weapon of our enemy, a commie piece of inaccurate crap that pales in comparison to the ever-deadly M4. He says if AKs were so great that the US military would use them. I tried the argument that it is the most prolific weapon in history, with over 80 million produced, and while a WASR 10 may not be accurate, in the right hands, a nice, milled Yugo or Vepr or Arsenal is a very combat accurate weapon. No need to mention reliability.

So, all in all, in a modern, urban combat setting, which would you take?
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Old October 30, 2009, 11:46 PM   #2
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AK for me please

AK...Hands down.

Pull trigger, Goes BANG every time.......Heavier round will penetrate cover, maintenance is a breeze, VERY tolerant of rough handling and dirt and dust.

Capable of reasonable accuracy out to 350-450 meters.
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Old October 30, 2009, 11:55 PM   #3
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hkkilla:

A guy with my company was in Special Forces during Desert Storm.

One night chatted very briefly with him when riding on a shuttle to a Newark Airport hotel (M. Courtyard).
My only question was what he thought of Russian-designed rifles.

Rick only said that their issued rifles were too unreliable, and in order to fight back, they picked up the Iraqi's AKs so that they would have reliable guns.

He has friends down here, and I can track down his cell phone number (he is based in Detroit/DTW) if somebody finds this difficult to believe.
It seems that people (especially our young veterans) find this an unpatriotic topic to discuss, but those were his words. When survival is at stake, the words "Commie junk" don't stop people from doing whatever is needed to prepare to protect themselves and their families.
As for civilians, notice how many survivalists have the SKS and/or an 'AK clone". "SKSboards" is just one source.

There appear to have been strong commercial and patriotic pressures, for decades, to only issue US-made rifles to our troops.
Have never owned an "AK clone", but my unmodified Norinco SKS has had only one misfeed during 1,200 rds, and no ftf etc. The misfeed might have been a jhp round.
Although I have limited gun experience and no combat/LEO tng, an SKS has better ergonomics than the AK, and the D or M is designed to use AK mags.

Mini 30, SKS, MN 44, LE #4, #5 "Jungle Carbine", Savage .22.

Last edited by Ignition Override; October 31, 2009 at 12:13 AM.
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Old October 30, 2009, 11:58 PM   #4
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The winner depends on the operator and the conditions.

For a close-in anti-zombie gun in a post-apocalyptic horror zone where there are no parts, no cleaning just shooting the AK may very well be the winner. It also makes a fantastic club, a spear and pets love it too.

If you're a precision shooter who must put the first round on target, the AR-15 is the way to go. Just because the AR-15 won't fire after immersion in the La Brea Tar Pits or being eaten by Truck-A-Saurus doesn't mean it isn't reasonably reliable in the field. If you routinely run your weapons over with trucks you may want to stay away from the AR-15.
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Old October 30, 2009, 11:59 PM   #5
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ak's in my opinion are good,reliable guns.are they gonna win a accuracy contest? no. but they hit the target.if i was gonna buy an ar,i would get a gas piston instead of direct gas.i think you would also have a problem with over penetration with the ak.. even a ruger mini 14 would suffice for home defense.you just want to hit the target all of them will do it.im a big fan of american made myself. my 02..
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Old October 31, 2009, 12:19 AM   #6
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If we are going to debate accuracy it is important to point out several things.

An iron sighted AR will be more accurate at long range because the AKs factory sights are not well suited for precision long distance shooting. Add a decent 4x28 POSP to the AK and a similar quality scope to an AR and you find that the AK fares much better against the AR. That being said, I find the AK open sights are superior to the AR for close range shooting.

Ammunition quality. Shooting a rack grade AR with good handloaded or expensive factory ammunition is going to result in tighter groups than an AK fired with cheap commie steel ammo. You ALWAYS see that when people compare accuracy. Bust out the quality brass cased ammo for the AR and use cheap steel ammo in the AK. Yes quality 7.62x39 is not as available in the US. Quality .223 is not as available in the Middle East, what's your point?

When you use either quality ammunition or cheap commie steel in both you find that the AK is either more accurate or the AR is less accurate.

When it comes down to it, both are accurate enough for shooting man sized targets out past 300+ yards, which is what they were both originally intended to do. The AK is hampered by it's open sights, but optics solve this.

Sure the AK doesn't do a very good job at being a target rifle. My car doesn't do a very good job at being a boat either. Using something for a purpose it was not designed for and then using that against it is hardly a valid argument.
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Old October 31, 2009, 12:33 AM   #7
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And it never ends.... :facepalm:
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Old October 31, 2009, 12:41 AM   #8
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Everyone talks about AKs and ARs with a lot of preconceived notions.


http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=26045

Watch both videos. Then reconsider your assumptions.

If you think the video is rigged, I suggest people take an AK and AR and try the same, then report back with results.
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Old October 31, 2009, 12:49 AM   #9
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Quote:
And it never ends.... :facepalm:
Pretty much what I was thinking when I saw the title...
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Old October 31, 2009, 01:10 AM   #10
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The follow - on posts are funny.

I used to hear the same thing about the 11-87 and it's O-Ring gas system vs recoil guns and the AL391. Fact is the 11-87's extremely reliable when given even SOME care. The range guns I used to shoot in AK were 4 11-87s that probably had a million (no kidding) rounds through them with no more than the occasional O Ring failure (A $3, 30 second fix).

The 'mythical' AK is just that - mythical. A small rock in the wrong spot will prevent ANY WEAPON from locking into battery and firing. PERIOD! END OF STORY. There is no but, if, and or however - that's it! I don't care if it's an AR, AK, G3 or a friggin howitzer! Pack either an AK or an AR full of some nice LA "blackjack" (must the consistency of cold bubble gum) and they'll both malfunction. Hose them both out and I bet they both work.

The AK was built for the peasant. The AR for the professional.
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Old October 31, 2009, 01:48 AM   #11
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I have an AK and an AR. Love them both and feel well armed with either. They're basically apples vs. oranges, both tasty fruit with lots of advantages.

It would be tough but if I was forced to give one up I'd keep my AR.
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Old October 31, 2009, 02:03 AM   #12
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i love and own 4 ar's and 1 ak, and they all perform well. yes i prefer ar, but i highly respect the power and accuracy of the ak-47.
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Old October 31, 2009, 08:06 AM   #13
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The obvious answer is BOTH!!!
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Old October 31, 2009, 08:23 AM   #14
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I would take whichever one I could find a lot of QUALITY magazines for.
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Old October 31, 2009, 08:32 AM   #15
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Dollar for dollar, probably the AK. I don't know what a stock AR is anymore. And all ARs are not the same. I can't in my right mind compare a base model A2 to a LWRC or Larue set up. But they were produced for different reasons. All my failures associated with ARs were solved with good magazines and extractor replacements. Sights are probably a preference thing. "Stock" sights for distance in my opinion goes to the AR. Anything for tactical courses or CQB a holographic elimnating three planes is a must for speed. And now days you can get an AR upper in any caliber you want from .22 to .30 cal and above even magnums. Dollar for Dollar a .30 cal AK is hard to beat.
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Old October 31, 2009, 08:38 AM   #16
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AK-47 or AR-15?

Yes.





(Actually the very best CQB weapon would be a piston driven Colt/LMT/Noveske AR in 6.8 SPC with an Aimpoint, the flip over magnifier, and a quick-mount gen 2 night sight.)
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Old October 31, 2009, 08:51 AM   #17
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Hmm... They are both fine weapon systems. Neither was designed with quiet the same intent. The AK was designed to fit the soviet military doctrine in 1947, which was to throw every man, woman, and child at the enemy and burn everything the enemy could use. It turns out that design obviously gravitated to some of the poorer 3rd world countries to people who did not have access to the same level of training as western (and some com-bloc) countries. It's rugged design made it easier to maintain, and the accuracy really isn't as much of an issue because most end users in many countries just "point, spray, and pray". If you get enough people doing that, superior firepower can be quiet effective.

The AR was designed with a completely different military doctrine in mind. It is inherently more accurate. It is a little more finicky to keep running. The ergonomics and modularity of the weapon are world renowned.

Both of them are excellent designs and rifles. If you like guns, pick up the cheapest thing you can at first to have a homeland defense rifle. Then get the other variant as soon as funs allow. You won't be disappointed with either (if you get quality).
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Old October 31, 2009, 08:54 AM   #18
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If I could only have 1, it would be the AK.
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Old October 31, 2009, 09:12 AM   #19
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I bought a GP-WASR-10 almost 3 years ago for $329.00. Out of the box had problems with jamming up. Everything locked up with spent casing in the chamber and had to go back to the factory. Got it back in about 3 weeks. Flawless ever since. A friend has a Bushmaster M-4.(cost 3 times as much) Along with my son and several other friends we've spent a lot of time out back, 300 yards to the woods where we put targets.
OK, it's not 1200 but it's fun and it's what I've got.
I've not seen one malfunction with either through countless thousands of rounds. The M-4 is obviously more accurate but my son and his friend would shoot 2 liter bottles at 300 yds. with the WASR with just barrell sites. I can hit them but with the older eyes and bi-focals it takes a few more trys.
I think that's plenty accurate for a SHTF rifle.
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Old October 31, 2009, 09:33 AM   #20
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Wouldn't a better side by side torture test be to use an AK in 7.62x39?
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Old October 31, 2009, 10:51 AM   #21
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Ask your friend which he would choose between: M4, AK, Para FAL carbine, PTR-91 w/ retractable stock, MSAR STG-E4 or M1A Socom. That should get the conversation started....
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Old October 31, 2009, 12:21 PM   #22
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Over the past 25 years I have owned many ARs and AKs... I sold or traded off all of them except one pre ban Norinco Type 56 AKM.
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Old October 31, 2009, 12:25 PM   #23
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Quote:
He hates AK47s with a passion, although he has never fired one.
Pretty much says it all.


Quote:
So, all in all, in a modern, urban combat setting, which would you take?
M4 about 95% of the time. I have been shooting ARs for 22 years and in no mood to change.
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Old October 31, 2009, 12:26 PM   #24
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AK-47 or AR-15
Where do you guys come up with these questions? I mean, isn't the answer obvious??







Greed has its benefits. I say go for both.
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Old October 31, 2009, 03:02 PM   #25
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"The AK was built for the peasant. The AR for the professional."

This always come up. Does no one remember that the AR was ALSO designed to be used by a conscript army?
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