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Old October 28, 2009, 08:19 PM   #1
bob.a
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Question - does a C&R allow purchase from pivate sellers?

I just sent to ATF for a C&R application. I wonder if the license would permit me to buy eligible firearms from private owners in my own and other states? Or am I limited to buying from FFLs and other C&R licensees?

Since I'm here anyway - are there any "gotchas" involved in filling out the forms? I seem to recall seeing a site somewhere that had a long spiel about how to fill out the form, but I can't remember where it was.

Thanks for your help.
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Old October 28, 2009, 08:57 PM   #2
O6nop
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It's a federal license so it is in effect anywhere in the US for eligible purchases.
You have to keep a log of your C&R purchases and sales (that ATF can audit), and you can only sell an eligible firearm from your C&R collection to improve or upgrade your collection. I think that means, though, that you can carry out private owner purchases, as anyone can do, without logging them.

I don't have a C&R, but I looked into getting one a few years back, so I hope this information is correct and current.
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Old October 28, 2009, 11:46 PM   #3
essohbe
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Like 06nop said, you can buy from a non-C&R holder from any state as long as you are a holder yourself and do not intend on reselling for profit.

If you buy from them, get their drivers liscense or state ID number for your bound book.

You can dispose of any of your C&R firearms to anyone that isn't prohibited from owning them by particular state law, providing you are not "engaged in the buisness" of selling firearms as a lively-hood (because that would make you a dealer who needs an 01 FFL, whereas an 03 FFL is for collectors).

If you dispose for requisition, you have to log those also.
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Old October 29, 2009, 08:35 AM   #4
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Also, remember that the 03FFL is a federal license. Any additional laws, restrictions, or requirements imposed by other local jurisdictions still must be complied with.
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Old October 29, 2009, 12:54 PM   #5
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For the benefit of future forum members, here's a general quick-reference guide to what a C&R FFL can buy and sell, assuming the firearm is C&R eligible and the transaction complies with state law.

In-state FFL, long gun or handgun: Buying and selling OK, including by mail-order
In-state nonlicensee*, long gun or handgun: Buying and selling OK, including by mail-order

Out-of-state FFL, long gun or handgun: Buying and selling OK, including by mail-order
Out-of-state nonlicensee*, long gun: Buying OK, including by mail-order; selling to nonlicensee only allowed if transaction is conducted face-to-face, no mail-order
Out-of-state nonlicensee*, handgun: Buying OK, including by mail-order; selling directly to nonlicensee not allowed, nonlicensee must transfer handgun through FFL in home state, no mail-order

Mandatory disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. This is not official legal advice. Caveat emptor.

*The C&R FFL is not required to retain a Form 4473 and/or conduct a NICS check, but should take reasonable steps to ascertain whether the buyer can legally possess the firearm.
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Old October 29, 2009, 11:04 PM   #6
cougar gt-e
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Quote:
Like 06nop said, you can buy from a non-C&R holder from any state as long as you are a holder yourself and do not intend on reselling for profit.
my understanding is that you can sell at a profit.

Not as a business! Only the government is allowed to sell intentionally at a loss


Let's say you buy 2 TT33 Tokarev's. You get them into your hot hands, clean the cosmo off and then shoot both. You decide that gun B is better than gun A, so you sell it. If you bought it for $200, you can sure sell it for $300. Cleaning off the cosmo and test firing it is worth something! Heck, if you found a buyer that was willing to pay $500, it wouldn't be a crime.

Now if you bought 25 Tok's and intended to sell off 24 of them --- that would require a "real" FFL 01.

jb
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Old October 30, 2009, 02:46 AM   #7
gyvel
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I think that means, though, that you can carry out private owner purchases, as anyone can do, without logging them.
This is a gray area. I have heard it both ways, i.e. that ANY purchase you make that is NOT done on a 4473 has to be entered into your bound book. Some say yes, others say no, and I have as yet to find it spelled out in BATF regs one way or the other.

It would be a difficult thing to prove, in any case.
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Old October 30, 2009, 07:19 AM   #8
loogee
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Re: C&R dealer sales

I was told by several dealers that any firearm in the C&R dealer's possession for AT LEAST one year can be sold without a form/log in.....like a private party sale......true...?
thanx.
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Old October 30, 2009, 02:13 PM   #9
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Quote:
I was told by several dealers that any firearm in the C&R dealer's possession for AT LEAST one year can be sold without a form/log in.....like a private party sale......true...?
No.

It doesn't matter if you had the gun for 1 day or 20 years. Any C&R gun sold while you have the License should be logged in your Bound Book.
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Old November 4, 2009, 09:56 PM   #10
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Not should be....SHALL be!
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Old November 4, 2009, 11:38 PM   #11
cougar gt-e
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Not should be....SHALL be!
and that ends with a silent "Or Else!"
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Old November 5, 2009, 09:43 AM   #12
erwos
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Actually, in-state transactions can be problematic. If I'm understanding this correctly, here in MD, the AG has ruled that C&R doesn't apply to in-state transactions. Thus, while you could dispose of long guns without a problem, regulated firearms and handguns would still need to go through a MD FFL or the police barracks.

Of course, if it's from out-of-state to MD, you can get it shipped right to your door.
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Old November 5, 2009, 12:40 PM   #13
bob.a
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Sounds like you're here in MD. Can you tell me whether I have to send info to the state police if I buy an out-of-state C&R pistol? How much bureaucratic overhead is involved with C&R in MD? My main interest at this tome is older pistols; of course that can change. Long guns seem simpler, overall.

Thanks for the replies, all.
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Old November 5, 2009, 02:44 PM   #14
gyvel
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OK. You go to Joe Blow's gun shop. He's a bit of a hard-headed putz and won't accept your C&R for purchasing that 1933 Colt National Match .45 and makes you fill out a 4473 for it.

At that point, does that gun attain the same status as the brand new Glock sitting next to it, and do you attain the same status as John Q. Public, i.e. it does NOT have to be entered into your bound book because you did NOT use your 03 C&R license to purchase it?
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Old November 6, 2009, 12:18 AM   #15
cougar gt-e
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If you have a C&R license and it's a C&R gun (even if the dweeb at the gun shop makes you fill out a 4473) you still need to enter it into your book.
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Old November 6, 2009, 07:31 AM   #16
erwos
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bob.a: No, you don't need to send them anything if the transaction is interstate. But if it's intrastate, at least in MD, your C&R basically doesn't help you.

This makes sense in a way, given that C&R is part of federal law, where they only have jurisdiction on interstate commerce.

(We have a fairly active discussion forum about C&R on mdshooters.com you might want to take a peek at.)
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Old November 6, 2009, 09:07 PM   #17
Mike in Va.
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Curio & Relic

My first post. I have a C&R license, about a year ago, I ordered a Romanian,
Tokarev, from I.O. in N.C., I wait for months, they kept telling me, I was on
back order, so I finally bought one at a gun show. Then a few weeks ago,I
got a call from I.O., saying that they had found, my back order, and did I still want the gun. So I said yes,and now I have 2. My youngest son, who is over 21, and can legally purchase firearms, wants one of them, so,I understand that it would be ok, to sell Him one, for the amount that I paid
for it.
Good to be here,
Mike in Va.
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Old November 9, 2009, 09:25 PM   #18
gandog56
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Quote:
OK. You go to Joe Blow's gun shop. He's a bit of a hard-headed putz and won't accept your C&R for purchasing that 1933 Colt National Match .45 and makes you fill out a 4473 for it.

At that point, does that gun attain the same status as the brand new Glock sitting next to it, and do you attain the same status as John Q. Public, i.e. it does NOT have to be entered into your bound book because you did NOT use your 03 C&R license to purchase it?
No, any....and I mean ANY! C&R eligible guns must be entered in your bound book no matter how they were obtained.
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Old November 10, 2009, 08:40 AM   #19
wamin
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03FFL

The rules for the 03 state that you can not engage in business. You can buy from individuals in state or out of state so long as your local laws are not violated. There is not a time limit on sales off your books. Use common sense, don't buy 10 rifles and sell off nine of them in a week. The 03 is just what it says it is, a collectors license.

Last edited by Shane Tuttle; November 10, 2009 at 02:47 PM. Reason: noise
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Old November 10, 2009, 10:25 AM   #20
gyvel
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Quote:
Quote:
I think that means, though, that you can carry out private owner purchases, as anyone can do, without logging them.

This is a gray area. I have heard it both ways, i.e. that ANY purchase you make that is NOT done on a 4473 has to be entered into your bound book. Some say yes, others say no, and I have as yet to find it spelled out in BATF regs one way or the other.
This is getting to be quagmire. Hopefully, help is on the way.

Quote:
No, any....and I mean ANY! C&R eligible guns must be entered in your bound book no matter how they were obtained.
You might be right about this. I am embroiled in discussions on two forums about whether you have to enter a C&R purchase in your bound book if you bought a C&R from a standard 01 FFL and he would NOT honor your license and made you fill out a 4473 for the purchase.

So far, three ATF field agents and one supervisor have said "No, you wouldn't have to," and yesterday another higher up person said "Yes, you do."

So now what I am doing is preparing the hypothetical situation and submitting it to the Director for a final determination in writing. (The rationale here is that you were denied use of your 03 license and the purchase reverts back to the same status as a "modern" weapon purchase on a 4473 as a private citizen.)

Hang in thar boys. We'll know soon enough...

Last edited by gyvel; November 10, 2009 at 10:34 AM.
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Old November 10, 2009, 10:42 AM   #21
gyvel
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Quote:
My first post. I have a C&R license, about a year ago, I ordered a Romanian,
Tokarev, from I.O. in N.C., I wait for months, they kept telling me, I was on
back order, so I finally bought one at a gun show. Then a few weeks ago,I
got a call from I.O., saying that they had found, my back order, and did I still want the gun. So I said yes,and now I have 2. My youngest son, who is over 21, and can legally purchase firearms, wants one of them, so,I understand that it would be ok, to sell Him one, for the amount that I paid
for it.
You can and should sell it to him at a higher price than what you paid.

The laws/regs/rulings specifically say (and they use a similar example in the FAQs) that if you acquire a better example of what you want for your collection, you are free to dispose of the one you don't want. No mention is made of any pricing; That's up to you.

You will have to make a record of disposal to him in your book, though.

So.....Since your son has sponged off of you for at least 18 years, you should sell him the extra Tokarev at as much profit as you can squeeze out of him to offset some of the expenses of raising him.

Oh, yeah, and he can't be a "prohibited person," either.

Last edited by gyvel; November 10, 2009 at 10:52 AM.
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Old November 10, 2009, 10:55 AM   #22
gyvel
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I was told by several dealers that any firearm in the C&R dealer's possession for AT LEAST one year can be sold without a form/log in.....like a private party sale......true...?
thanx.
That only applies to 01 FFLs.

A C&R (03) is NOT a dealer. (Big no-no.)

I'm seeking a ruling from ATF about a couple of the other things.
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Old November 10, 2009, 08:49 PM   #23
BobbyT
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Can we stop going around in circles on this? Even the notoriously-murky ATF is fairly clear on this, so there shouldn't be any discussion.

Federally speaking, a C&R allows you to:
- buy C&R-eligible items from all legal sellers (FFL or private citizen), in or out of state
- sell no differently than a private citizen (FFL out of state; private transfers in state)

A C&R requires you to:
- log all C&R acquisitions and disposals SINCE receiving your C&R

Its intent is to allow you to collect. There are no rules regarding how soon, how often, or for how much you may dispose of items. If you want to sell your friend a Mosin, that's fine. If you bought it for dirt cheap and now it's worth twice as much, that's fine too.

Assuming that most people here are making between 30k and 100k a year, there's nothing you'll profit enough on to substantially affect your income. You're not going to accidentally cross the line from casual disposal to income-generating dealer.
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Old November 10, 2009, 11:27 PM   #24
bob.a
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Thanks for the responses, everyone. I'm pleased to inderstand that I can purchase from private citizens out-of-state. Now I need to clarify my responsibilities regarding purchases and the Maryland state govt.

I'll be checking out mdshooters, too.

Sure wish I lived in a free state, rather than in the "Free State". Most of you may not realise how lucky you are.
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Old November 12, 2009, 01:55 PM   #25
erwos
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You don't have to do anything with the MD state government for interstate C&R purchases. We don't have mandatory gun registration here.
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