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Old October 24, 2009, 09:31 PM   #1
charlieb
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Want to get started on paperwork for a supressor

Can anyone tell me where to begin with regards to the paperwork to own a supressor?
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Old October 24, 2009, 10:34 PM   #2
NESHOOTER
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Charlie, generally the place you buy the can from will give you the material you need some buy with outright but do check with them on a trust so if you buy one you can will it to you kids,bro, mom/dad or whoever and they will not have to pay the 200.00 tax on it www.exeter-arms.com for example will answer alot of questions you might have and give you an idea of cost into what your looking for this is about all the info I can offer you ....
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Old October 24, 2009, 11:04 PM   #3
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Get in touch with a Class 3 dealer. They fill out their part of the paperwork and then mail it to you to finish and submit to the ATF.

You also need to decide what suppressor you are going to get first, since all that info needs to be on the Form 4.

The process goes as follows:

Decide what suppressor you want.
Get in touch with Dealer, send them money, wait for them to get the suppressor in their possession.
Dealer fills out his parts of the paperwork.
Dealer mails you the Form 4' fingerprint cards, etc.
Get fingerprinted, photos, and CLEO signoff. (I won't touch the trust method with a 10' pole, neither will my dealer and many other people. CLEO signoff is not a problem for me, but for others it may be their only option.)
Mail in all the paperwork with a $200 check.
Wait for ATF to approve the Form 4 and send it back to your Dealer.
Take possession of NFA item from your dealer.
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Old October 24, 2009, 11:28 PM   #4
Willie Lowman
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Don't say "class III" it hurts the feelings of one of our resident 07/02s... Say 03 special occupational taxpayer

Crosshair, why don't you or your dealer like the trust method?
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Old October 26, 2009, 06:02 AM   #5
charlieb
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Thanks guys this helps. I appreciate it.
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Old October 26, 2009, 09:41 AM   #6
David Hineline
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Dallas

Since you are in Dallas I would suggest you start with this man.

Steave Wayman
Specialties: Class 3
1607 W. Mockingbird Lane Suite 110
Dallas, TX 75235
Phone: (214) 265-0010
FAX: (214) 265-0280
E-mail: steaveREMOVETHISSPAMGARD@flash.net
Homepage: N/A
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Old October 26, 2009, 12:52 PM   #7
Crosshair
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Quote:
Crosshair, why don't you or your dealer like the trust method?
The chance for mistakes and the trust being invalid. The ATF doesn't like them and with the widespread use of software like Willmaker and such it would be interesting to see what happens when the ATF cracks down and starts putting trusts under a microscope. There has already been one case that has grabbed attention regarding an invalid trust.

Trusts are a legal work of fiction. Like a corporation, they essentially create a "person" that does not really exist. With non-NFA guns you can always "transfer" the guns back to yourself, but with NFA it is $200 per transfer.

There is the issue of a Form 5 transfer. For an individual, this is clear-cut and no problem. On a trust it is still not settled. There is a chance that your extate may have to pay $200 per NFA item to transfer it out of the trust upon death.

I'm probably being paranoid, but I'm not chancing it. ESPECIALLY with the ATF.
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Old October 27, 2009, 09:57 PM   #8
charlieb
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I'm familiar with DFW gunrange- I'll give them a call.
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Old October 28, 2009, 03:24 PM   #9
DRice.72
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Kinda off topic kinda not, do you do the paper work on every NFA item? I'm not ever going to buy an NFA item, but this is very fascinating to me.
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Old October 28, 2009, 04:03 PM   #10
Skans
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Quote:
I won't touch the trust method with a 10' pole, neither will my dealer and many other people.
Why not? I've seen folks who have used a Trust to obtain suppressors. I'm not asking this as a "smartass" - because I'm skeptical of the Trust method too. I'm just wondering if there are any concrete reasons for mine (and your) skeptisism.
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Old October 30, 2009, 02:58 PM   #11
Crosshair
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Quote:
I'm just wondering if there are any concrete reasons for mine (and your) skeptisism.
The issue of the Form 5 transfer is a very real one. My interactions with the ATF in regards to trusts has been very negative. They do not like them.

I discussed some other stuff with my dealer and he had some other points but I don't remember the details 100% so perhaps it would be best for me to email him first and get clarification before I start going from memory.

The only reason to use a trust IMHO is if you cannot get CLEO signoff.
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Old October 30, 2009, 04:24 PM   #12
Skans
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BATFE may not like the use of trusts, but they are permitting them to be used to obtain NFA itmes without a CLEO sign-off. Same thing goes for Corps and LLC's.

However, I still agree with you - I don't like them and would only use them as a last resort if I really had to have a particular NFA item. Personally, I think it's too easy for BATFE to retroactively say "no more trusts, corps, etc - all NFA must be registered only to indiviudals or deposited to your nearest BATFE agent for safe keeping".
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Old October 30, 2009, 08:06 PM   #13
NESHOOTER
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Yes, but even if they retro them as them signing off on them in ne if they did they would have to sign off on all of them for the most part because if they did it would affect all the III classifications permits granted and would have to be done on a federal level....
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Old November 6, 2009, 12:40 PM   #14
RAnb
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I just got my first ATF form 1 approved on a trust I drew up. I wish I had done this the first seven times. I intend to keep doing it unless the law is changed. It is so much nicer than asking the sheriff for "permission" and paying for the bullsh-t fingerprint cards at $10 each at the local police station. I even created a shared revocable trust with my brother and I as trustees so I could make a silencer and send it to him after he got his form 1 approved. He wanted a silencer but lacked the tools to make them. Gotta love those trusts.

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Old November 12, 2009, 10:37 AM   #15
MrClean
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Trusts - Personal - etc

Just got my paperwork finished up for my latest "can" and BACK in the mail to ATF. Yes, I said BACK to them. The original paperwork was filing under a Trust (for the first time). ATF kicked it back because it was lacking certain component(s). Agent was VERY helpful and explained all he could legally. After talking to several folks about it, I decided just to file back as individual.

I am NOT a lawyer and am NOT stating anything you should take as gospel without checking it out for yourself. Below is what I found out while checking into NFA Trusts, I finally just got CLEO signoff. If you are buying a can and paying 200 for a tax stamp..... uhm.... 20.00 for fingerprint cards isn't really a big deal, is it?? And as far as them "knowing" you have it.... if it gets that bad, they ATF will let them know you have those things. haha

* Just because the ATF gives you the stamp you filed for under a NFA Trust does NOT mean they are saying your NFA Trust is legal. They are NOT responsible for verifying the legality of it. Therefore if it is not a valid/legal NFA Trust you have just committed a FELONY.

* They are finding out that many dealers (and even some lawyers) are helping their customers out by giving them templates/forms for NFA trusts.... however, they are NOT complete and therefore illegal. This sets you up for major trouble down the road.

* People take for granted that just because the dealer gave it to them and their friends have gotten suppressors using the same form, that it's legal and valid. I have a friend that filed the same paperwork as I did ( Used his as a template ) and got his approved. ATF pointed out that mine was not valid or legal, and they just happened to catch it. That's scary. And again, the ATF is not accountable to verify it is valid and legal.

* There is a big difference between "Certification of NFA Trust" paper and "Declaration of NFA Trust" paperwork. There are many components which must be there for a valid legal NFA Trust, which differs from a regular trust from what I have been told by those I believe to be most knowledgeable about this.

* The only way I felt comfortable ensuring I was going to file a legal/valid NFA Trust was to go with a lawyer that does NFA Trusts. Too much money and hassle for me. I talked to TWO lawyers that said they would create me a "NFA Trust" with no problem, BUT.... the more questions I asked the less confidence I had in them and their knowledge in this unique area. Filing personal like I did works for me. And I am 100% sure I am legal. My Will covers what is to be done with them and everything else I own.

* As far as the whole "upon my death" someone might have to pay 200 per item to get it in their name..... big frikkin deal. You mean whoever just got all this free stuff is gonna gripe about 200 for an SBR, Suppressor, Select Fire weapon? Use the money I left behind to pay for it. LOL


Side Note: I would suggest checking with your CLEO FIRST to see if he is going to give you any grief about getting his signature later. I have gotten sign off on all of my 'toys'. I think most CLEO's are fine with it, especially once you come in, sit down and visit with them. But I have heard of a few instances where they had "issues" with it.
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Old November 12, 2009, 11:18 AM   #16
Dustin0
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Here is a good read I found about NFA items. Its how to get the paperwork done on a SBR.

http://forum.pafoa.org/nfa-class-3-t...xperience.html
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Old November 29, 2009, 12:13 AM   #17
seidlerlaw
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NFA Gun Trust

It is always a good idea to have an experienced trust lawyer draft your NFA gun trust. I have drafted many in the past. There is too much at stake not to do it right the first time.

Marty Seidler
San Antonio Arms Company, LLC
Law Offices of Martin Seidler
11107 Wurzbach Rd. #504
San Antonio, Texas 78230
seidlerlaw@yahoo.com
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Old November 29, 2009, 05:07 PM   #18
RAnb
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The lowest price I saw quoted by a lawyer I talked with to make a trust was $600. That guy was not local. All the local guys were either too busy with bankruptcies or said they did not know enough about NFA law.

I thought $600 was too much for an hour's worth of typing on a word processor. So I went with software I bought for $40. The ATF likes it so far.

If you do not mind me asking, what do you charge for creating a trust? Thanks.

Ranb
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Old December 14, 2009, 07:39 PM   #19
AaronCoady
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I had a trust drawn up by an attorney, as I live in a county where the CLEO will not sign anything related to Class III. So in other words I had no choice. It has worked flawlessly, I couldn't be happier with how easy things have worked out. And there is no transfer fee when I pass on to the next plane...the Trust merely stays intact and passes to the next in line, and the items stay within the trust...no transfer needed.
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