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Old October 22, 2009, 09:24 PM   #51
MTT TL
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People are animals...just a little smarter. Nothing more nothing less.
How bizarre. By your logic we should be cannibals. I am going to have to disagree.
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Old October 22, 2009, 09:50 PM   #52
ZeroJunk
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About the only animals that I know that kill just for the joy of it is a house cat, and a few humans.

We condemn it because it needs to be condemned.

Thinking since we are human that we have some special right to be cruel is what is bizarre.


Has nothing to do with killing what you and those you provide for need to live, or controlling a population where other checks and balances don't.
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Old October 22, 2009, 09:53 PM   #53
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Doesn't a wolf just force itself on a caribou? Doesn't the fox do it to a rabbit?
yes, they do...but not for sport or pleasure. They do it for survival and they do not do it in a cruel manner just to inflict pain or to see which animal is stronger. They do not do it to make themselves feel superior. They do it to eat or to defend themselves. That is the very core of the difference between hunting and trophy hunting.
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Old October 22, 2009, 10:17 PM   #54
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I had a coyote hit the chicken coup. He killed all of the chickens but only one was missing. Why did he kill all of the chickens when he couldn't possibly eat them all? There was no sound reason for this. I have had a bull kill a younger bull, he didn't eat this younger bull but he sure did show his power and he seamed to enjoy his status as the leader. At other times he would have no problem pushing other cows around sometimes pinning them between objects.

I really don't think we can say an animal only kills for needs. BTW I culled this bull for safety reasons.

I have other examples and there is a known fact of the pecking order for chickens. Even the free range chickens will do the same as a cage chicken. They will keep pecking on a single chicken until they kill it. Animal on animal violence is some of the must cruelest killing that I have ever personal seen.

So I don't buy the animals are natural and only kill for sound life sustaining reasons. Because that is not true.

However let us not loose sight of what we were asked to ponder. As hunters do we feel animal cruelty is bad and I think the majority answer is yes. However be very careful on what you want to list as cruelty.

Trophy hunting is not cruelty. The animal is killed the same as any other animal hunted. A trophy hunter doesn't beat, smash (for fun or thrill) or do anything different than a regular deer hunter does. You may not be a trophy hunter, which I am not but I'm not going to segregate them into criminals.
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Old October 22, 2009, 10:34 PM   #55
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I think hunting is pretty much hard wired in to us. You can enjoy the hunt and view the kill as a reality to be satisfied and thankful for.

Making distinctions whether you own the animal, or whether cruelty to animals is like cruelty toward humans is the typical forum tangents that will get you off where you forgot what you were even talkng about.

I eat all that I kill, always have and always will. Works for me.
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Old October 23, 2009, 06:52 AM   #56
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About the only animals that I know that kill just for the joy of it is a house cat, and a few humans.
I Have always had problems talking to cats and other animals, they never want open up and tell me what they are feeling and thinking. Therefore I have to ascribe feelings, emotions and motivations to them based upon self-referential information. Wrong I know, but short of being Dr. Doolittle it is my only option. I am glad after all this time someone was able to talk with the animals and find out what they were thinking and why they do the things they do.
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Old October 23, 2009, 07:01 AM   #57
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Wolves are verified "THRILL KILLERS" yet PBP wants them left alone (from another thread)... They trill kill depleting the deer and elk herds as well as cattle and sheep herds. They DO NOT kill humanely and are on video taking bites of meat while the wounded animal is still alive...
I have no use for any tree hugger as I ain't met one yet that has an ounce of understanding in regards to the real world!
Just to maintain my TFL membership, I will leave it at that.
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Old October 23, 2009, 07:02 AM   #58
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I Have always had problems talking to cats and other animals, they never want open up and tell me what they are feeling and thinking. Therefore I have to ascribe feelings, emotions and motivations to them based upon self-referential information. Wrong I know, but short of being Dr. Doolittle it is my only option. I am glad after all this time someone was able to talk with the animals and find out what they were thinking and why they do the things they do.
Did you ever watch a cat torment a mouse for a hour before he kills him, or do you live in the city and think they eat cat food. They routinely play with their prey until it is dead.

I don't care what they are thinking.
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Old October 23, 2009, 07:08 AM   #59
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Pleasure

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About the only animals that I know that kill just for the joy of it is a house cat, and a few humans.
There was an animal show that studied the physiological rsponse of predators after a kill. They did blood work and heart rates. The lab work showed that lions might actually get some sort of pleasure from killing. Endorphines were found in blood after the kill. We know how they make us feel. Now it is impossible to ascertain with one hundred percent certainty whether an animal has any pleasure in killing other animls, but no one can say they don't with any certainty either.

I also saw that in the study of chimps, they found that they were not the peaceful gentle creatures that they had thought they were. In fact, Jane Goodall(sp?) was shocked when she saw them hunt for smaller monkey species to eat. She even saw them form gangs and murder fellow chimps.

We humans are not so unique!

Now, want to talk about cruel. Anyone ever see how wolves bring down large animals. the literally disembowl them while they are alive. It is not a quick and painless death by any means. Even cougars suffocate deer to death. I don't want to die, but if I had to, a bullet would be prefered to any of those methods.
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Old October 23, 2009, 07:12 AM   #60
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I agree 100% Roy. I hate cats anyway.

But, if the only way you can kill something is with your teeth it ain't gonna be pretty.

A man has a choice to make it as painless as he possibly can.
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Old October 23, 2009, 07:23 AM   #61
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I wonder how many American Humans consider themselves to be "Apex Predators"? I know I do... I consider myself to be "A natural born killer with a little restraint"...
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Old October 23, 2009, 07:32 AM   #62
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Killers

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A natural born killer with a little restraint"...
Has anyone ever witnessed a sweet dog change into a killer? My dog does not have a mean bone in her body. However, one day we were taking a nature hike. For some reason a squirrel ran up to us. She reached down and grabbed the dummy. I told her "put it down." The animals was dead, crushed in an instance.

When people tell me that hunting and killing are cruel, I remind them that mother nature is cruel. I really think that some folks believe that the movie Bambi is a documentary.

Another example that I just tought of.

Have any of you seen those nature clips of Killer Whales going after seals? They throw them around like rag dolls. They release them and follow them to shore. At the last second they grab the animal and start over. If that ain't cruel, I don't know what is.
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Old October 23, 2009, 07:38 AM   #63
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I told her "put it down." The animals was dead, crushed in an instance.
Sounds about as "soft mouthed" as my catch dogs...
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Old October 23, 2009, 07:41 AM   #64
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re:Hogdogs

I was actually shocked at first. This is a dog that is worthless as a guard dog. She has never growled at anyone or hurt anyone. She has had little kids climbing all over her and she just tolerates it. But, she killed that squirrel just like that. It did remind me that deep inside she is a predator. She has the instinct to kill. Just like I do.

I heard a statement once that at first sounds silly. But if you really think about it, it makes sense. Football, is probably the most popular sport in America. I heard someone say, that if we were not predators by nature, that the game of tackle football would never have been developed. Watch the game, it is a game of predator versus prey. When the quarterback is in the pocket with the ball he essentially becomes the prey. The defensive players are the predators. A tackle is not that different of an act then a lion bring down a zebra.

We humans are killers, plain and simple.

Last edited by roy reali; October 23, 2009 at 07:47 AM.
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Old October 23, 2009, 07:43 AM   #65
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Has anyone ever witnessed a sweet dog change into a killer? My dog does not have a mean bone in her body. However, one day we were taking a nature hike. For some reason a squirrel ran up to us. She reached down and grabbed the dummy. I told her "put it down." The animals was dead, crushed in an instance.
we have a sweet little sheltie mix,and she is so calm and does nothing wild.But when another dog comes around,things change.A rotweiller came over and was playing with her,and they were both dragging around a green opossum.
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Old October 23, 2009, 07:48 AM   #66
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Yes it is the natural instinct for all animals with their eyes facing forward... And most with canines and incisors. More folks would do themselves good to see what you seen. I have had numerous dogs in my life that surprised me with this instinct.
Never had one that wouldn't growl at strangers but we had a shep mix that knew she needed to acquire food for her pups as we were broker than broke. I was a young kid and momma sent me out with some thawed food from the freezer and I found a freshly killed cock pheasant in the puppy pen with only a wrung neck... How in the heck this house dog caught it, we will never know. I plucked it and cleaned it and we cooked it for us as it was still warm. The pups got the leftovers later... Yeah we were hungry too...
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Old October 23, 2009, 08:03 AM   #67
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reHogdogs

This young woman I knew years ago had just adopted a Jack Russell Terrier. Some how it had gotten a hold of her neighbors pet bunny. If you know anything about dogs you know the outcome of this encounter. She was horrified by what her dog had done. I tried to explain to her that it was a natural reaction, espically considering the breed. She even gave her dog away.

I suggested that she get a fish bowl and some goldfish.

She then got rid of me.
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Old October 23, 2009, 08:18 AM   #68
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She then got rid of me.
Probably the best thing to happen to you
I also had a dog that managed to get to a litter of kittens in the closet...
I came home to "kitty parts" all over the master bedroom... even had a "back half" on my pillow she was another shep mix. Friendly as all get out but that instinct is always there and only humans have a chance to control it 100% of the time.
I have a North Carolina buddy who's wife will wreck numerous cars each year running down animals of all size... She will hit a tree just to run down a bunny and she takes down several deer per year with the "Chrome Bullet" as she calls it Don't even mess with her man!
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Old October 23, 2009, 08:28 AM   #69
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About the only animals that I know that kill just for the joy of it is a house cat, and a few humans.

Killer Whales toy and play with seals once they've caught them out in the open by tossing them out of the water with their tails. This is done for sport (or could be debated as "pleasure") and not for survival. There are many other instances of this in the animal kingdom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0qMT2YBIcg

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Old October 23, 2009, 08:47 AM   #70
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I still hate a cat. My wife spent $7000 trying to keep one of the bastards alive.
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Old October 23, 2009, 08:53 AM   #71
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My wife spent $7000 trying to keep one of the bastards alive.
And a nickel spent on a .22 lead aspirin could have saved all that dough!!!
Never mind me... I am the guy who will do free varmint control on a "cat job"... Feral cats are the devil's pet and it is my duty to rid the earth of them! A cuddly INDOOR cat is fine and I like to cuddle them (at my friend's houses) but outdoors un-tethered is nothing but a target... and a collar with bell makes such a sweet jingle when they do the "red mist polka" Did I mention I consider myself a predator
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Old October 23, 2009, 09:05 AM   #72
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Very interesting topic and I am glad to see it being discussed. I have to agree with Farmland and Hogdogs.
There is a difference between inflicting cruelty for YOUR pleasure (including neglecting house pets)and hunting. If you kill the animal as humanely as possible, then I have no problem with it.

Like Farmland, I also raise cattle and pigs and goats and all kinds of poultry. We eat and sell what we raise. We sometimes butcher here at the farm, sometimes we take it the local slaughter house.

But what is cruel? I castrate piglets. They scream and squirm and try to get away from me. Is that cruel? If I do not castrate them, they no longer have any value as a meat animal and what should I do with them? Turn them loose? I can not afford to feed pigs that will not give me a return on my investment. I castrate the bull calves that will not be used for breeding. They grow quicker making it cheaper to feed them. Not many animals will stand calmly by to let you snip or band their testicles.
I wish you could see the damage done to my farm every year by the coyotes, foxes, raccoons, possums and cats. How long am I supposed to sustain this financial drain?

My neighbor is a tree hugger like you would not believe. She must have more than 50 cats running around her place (and mine). She takes a five pound bag of cat food and just pours it on her front porch to feed the cats.
The cats bring in the coyotes and foxes and bobcats. When they run out of food, they follow the stream to my place and start in on my poultry and goats. So yes, I also shoot cats around my place. (SIDE NOTE: I have noticed the song birds have increased since I began culling her cats.)
I think it is cruel that she has all these cats and they have to stay outside in the freezing weather, but she thinks she is doing a good deed by feeding them. She has no idea what the consequences of her actions are. People are always dropping off cats, and occasionally dogs, at her place or along the road by the farm. I feel my only responsibility to these animals is to end the suffering they are going to face.
I can not trap them and take them to the animal shelter because then I have to pay to put them in the shelter. (The last time I took a cat and her kittens to the shelter, I think they wanted me to pay $15 for each animal.)
What about the damage these animals cause to our gardens?
The animal rights activist have no idea what they have created. PETA is bunch of hypocritical jerks. Look how many shelters they actually support verses the amount of money they raise. Look how many ranchers and farmers are loosing livestock to re-introduced predators. We all can not live in the city and buy our food at the local store.

To sum it up, I feel if an animal is dispatched with the least amount of pain you have available, then that is not cruelty. What you do with the animal carcass afterwards in your business.
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Old October 23, 2009, 09:16 AM   #73
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I can only wish my own death to be as quick as some of the animals I have killed.My worst fear would be to suffer a long and lingering death.

ANYONE who intentionally tortures an animal for thier own pleasure is sick and deserves to die a similar fate.I don't care if you kill an animal or not but it's your responsiblilty to end it quickly without the animal suffering.
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Old October 23, 2009, 09:31 AM   #74
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[QUOTE]yes, they do...but not for sport or pleasure. They do it for survival and they do not do it in a cruel manner just to inflict pain or to see which animal is stronger. They do not do it to make themselves feel superior. They do it to eat or to defend themselves. That is the very core of the difference between hunting and trophy hunting.[/QUOTE

In most species, being the dominant male/female in a group of the population is as good as it gets in the hierarchy. So yes, animals do kill just to make themselves superior. I can't say it's a conscious act, but it happens nonetheless.
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Old October 23, 2009, 11:02 AM   #75
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Threads like these are always the worst possible scenarios. Ethics are, and always should be, ones own. As long as a person operates with-in the law they are good to go. No one here (I hope) is gonna say it's good to torture animals. But in hunting there is death. There is also suffering. You can't hide from and YOU SHOULDN'T. Animals in the wild DO kill for the sake and fun of killing. They will play with half dead critters. They will do things like killing whole groups of chickens just to do it. If you don't believe that you need to get ones head outta the sand. Nature is nature and I am an ultimate predator. I'm not gonna hide from it. There is nothing to be gained from BS like this. You're not gonna change any body's mind no matter which side of the argument you are on. You can only call it an argument, to call it a debate would mean the possibility to sway someones mind. Not gonna happen. Any death that I deal out to a critter, no matter how long and painful, is not as bad as many animals suffer in the wild. It's also not nearly and long and painful as the death that critter dishes out to it's prey. I could wound a coyote or coon, let it linger to die a long and slow death, and in the grand scheme of things, actually reduce the amount of suffering in nature. Bunny huggers think that we should evolve beyond our natural instincts. To do so would be unnatural. Any thread involving ethics should be closed IMO. Nothing to gain.

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