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Old October 21, 2009, 07:59 AM   #1
roy reali
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Animal Cruelty?

I am a hunter as most of you know. I kill animals. I have no qualms about anyone killing an animal in legal and ehtical manners. What I can't stand is seeing people treating animals in a cruel manner. The way some poeple treat animals makes my blood boil.

I have always wondered if this makes me a hypocrite?

If I am walking through a field and a game bird takes off I'll try to kill it. If I see chickens being kept in a pen of filth I get angry. If a rancher asks to shoot a coyote I'll galdly do it. If I see someone kick a dog I want to kick him. I have a mountain lion tag I want to fill. When I hear of someone setting a cat on fire I want to set that person on fire.

Anyone else here think the way I do?
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Old October 21, 2009, 08:08 AM   #2
tyrajam
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I live to hunt. But torturing an animal is completely different. I agree with you. To kill something quickly and cleanly for the table, its pelt, or whatever, is a part of life that has gone on for thousands of years, and will continue for thousands more. To intentionally cause an animal to suffer, however, has no purpose, and I agree it is a sign of a sick person.
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Old October 21, 2009, 08:10 AM   #3
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I feel pretty much the same way...

Brent
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Old October 21, 2009, 08:34 AM   #4
.284
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I think what you're talking about makes perfect sense. The scenarios you have laid out are as different as apple and oranges. There is a purpose in your actions, whereas kicking a dog or setting a cat on fire is just what you said, crueltly.
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Old October 21, 2009, 09:24 AM   #5
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Of course you feel this way, because you are normal.

Taking animal life, for a purpose, be it sport or food or pelt or money is a normal & QUICK act, not a dreanged & DRAWN OUT one.

Causing an animal to suffer over a long period of time is where the deranged part comes in.

Very different.

And kicking a dog (for no good reason), is akin to kicking a 4 year old child, as dogs are as intelligent as children of that age & are loyal creatures, helping millions of humans a year and also saving thousands of human lives as well.
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Old October 21, 2009, 09:24 AM   #6
simonkenton
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Yeah, I think the way you do.
If you are going to kill a creature to eat it, do so quickly and as painlessly as possible.
People who torture animals deserve to be tortured.

I can't even stand to see those lobsters in the tank at the restaurant, I say, if you are gonna kill 'em, kill 'em.
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Old October 21, 2009, 09:30 AM   #7
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I can't even stand to see those lobsters in the tank at the restaurant, I say, if you are gonna kill 'em, kill 'em.
Well, there's a very practical reason for that: To keep them alive & fresh until they are ready to cook. Otherwise they spoil quickly, or you have to freeze them, both of which severely undesireable.

That would be akin to killing a steer as soon as it has reached the right weight even tho there is no one willing to buy the meat in the foreseable future...you have to have a ready market before you can butcher them or you wind up freezing them for who knows how long & then no one wants the frozen meat.
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Old October 21, 2009, 09:38 AM   #8
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What is it they say? I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it.
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Old October 21, 2009, 10:30 AM   #9
simonkenton
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I can't stand to see those lobsters, sitting confined in that tank and looking at the people who are going to eat them, sometimes for weeks.
That is torture.

If it doesn't bother you, then fine, go buy a big fresh lobster for dinner tonight.
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Old October 21, 2009, 10:55 AM   #10
koolminx
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The reality of it is, the Lobsters do not have any idea what's going to happen to them... So it's not cruel in the slightest. Anyone that thinks it is cruel, just think of the slow death they get from being eaten by a starfish... That's cruel!

About the cruelty... I am with you man. Quick death = good eats and no cruelty.
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Old October 21, 2009, 11:06 AM   #11
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Simon, On the flip side... If you would do your part buying them live lobsters, they wouldn't suffer so long in the tank staring at you wishing you would help them expedite their demise
I see no difference in the lobsters and cattle in a barn... So long as they ain't starved to death.
Brent
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Old October 21, 2009, 11:32 AM   #12
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Good point HD. Kind of like being morally against baiting and having no problem with domestic hogs, which are a lot smarter than a deer is ever going to be, fed on a slab of concrete until they are big enough to be slaughtered and shot in the head.

I doubt the hog sees any mystical extra value in a deer.

All in the mind of the hunter trying to make something harder so he can feel proud of himself I suppose.
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Old October 21, 2009, 11:42 AM   #13
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simonkenton, I think you may be overlooking something: lobsters do not have self-awareness. They do not even realize that they themselves exist.

Place a lobster in front of a mirror, and they will think it's another lobster.

Only higher, more intelligent animals like apes, dolphins, man, etc. are aware of their own existence and look at themselves in a mirror and realize that they are looking at themselves.

So a lobster, sitting in a tank, doesn't even realize that it exists, let alone that the people looking at it are going to eat it.

All just reflex and instinct when they are grabbed. Kind of like a 3 month old baby...they instinctively know to cry when hungry and then feed on a boobey, but they have no idea they exist.

Not saying that babies are the same thing as lobsters, but just giving you an example that hopefully explains it a little better.
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Old October 21, 2009, 11:58 AM   #14
schutzen
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I think you will find most hunters have the same regard for animals that you do. Hunters strive for a quick, clean, humane kill. Most hunters I know keep their hunting dogs in clean pens, keep them well feed, and exercise them often. How many of the "animal rights do gooders" allow their pet to run freely? How many house pet cats needlessly kill song birds because they are allowed to roam freely in the yard? How many deer are run to death by pet dogs running free?

Many of the people who criticize hunters have never lived outside a metropolitan area. Most have not seen wildlife except on TV and fewer still have lived to watch nature's majesty unfold through the seasons of the year.
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Old October 21, 2009, 12:34 PM   #15
Pahoo
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Quote:
I think you will find most hunters have the same regard for animals that you do.
I feel that all "Hunters" feel this way and folks that don't, have other issues and in need of professional help. Just as I'm aware that there are ethical hunters out there, I am aware that there are killers. Not much you can do about the other guy; is there ??? ...

Now, on a realated issue, PETA is really missing the boat on the treatment of chickens. How many times have you eaten chicken and found broken legs and wings or seen the presence of bleeding? Last night I boiled some chicken and when I trimmed off the meat, there was evidence of bleeding. We all know that a dead animals doesn't bleed like that. Have to stop watching CSI.


Be Safe !!!
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Old October 21, 2009, 01:31 PM   #16
wyobohunter
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I feel the same way...

I guess it says something about the duality of man

Although I will not try to say I never buy meat, I really don't care for factory farming and much prefer getting my own hands bloody over buying that stuff that "grows on the shelf at the grocery store". I also don't like cruel animal experimentation and try to avoid products that use this practice.
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Old October 21, 2009, 02:08 PM   #17
ninjatoth
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I can understand not wanting animal cruelty,and a good hunter should make it a priority to kill his game without alot of suffering.But,I could go either way when it comes to cats.If someone has a stray cat problem and wants to shoot them,so be it.I am more concerned with the possible kid that is losing a pet than the cat itself.I even seen a story about how the humane society was offering a $500 reward for finding the person that shot a lost cat in the head with an arrow.I am not saying that shooting the cat with an arrow is right,and I sympathize with the owner of the cat,but look at the law and the probable home owner that had his trash being torn up.It is a homeowners right to shoot a stray looking cat,with no consequence,so what is the $500 reward going to do?Nothing.Again,it is cruel to choose an arrow to do pest control,but obviously they were going for a kill shot to hit it in the head.I know my remarks sound terrible,but I grew up on a farm with a huge wild cat problem,and I would never use an arrow to try to kill a cat,but lighten up on controlling stray animals,if you can take out a few humainly,so be it,if you don't,the animal control will with gas,then burn them,that's what they do.
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Old October 21, 2009, 02:36 PM   #18
ninjatoth
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I want to clear up that I do not believe in cruelty twords any animal at any time.But I believe simply this:I do not see a pest cat or dog any differently than a raccoon or opossum when it comes to defending your property or animals.Just because humans have tamed certain animal like cats or dogs,does not make them better than other animals,and are subject to lethal force when out of line or dangerous.I will never be a person who puts an animal up there with humans,I simply believe humans are much more valuable.
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Old October 21, 2009, 02:52 PM   #19
orangello
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I agree on the theme of a quick kill & humane hunting being OK while senseless violence against an animal is not OK.

I make an exception in regards to deer of any kind; i hate them and wish them whatever kind of death gets them first be it quick and relatively painless or slow and excruciating. I'm not saying that is "right" or "proper"; i'm just saying that is how i feel. I was riding in a truck that accidentally ran over a racoon many years ago, and i insisted we stop and put the 'coon down the quickest way possible. If it had been a deer, i wouldn't have asked that we stop and put it down, but i wouldn't have insisted on watching it twitch out either. Deadliest animal in North America for how many years now?

Ninjatoth, not to argue the value of cats vs. opossums, but i do think that the history of cats and dogs as associates of humans makes destroying them acceptable in fewer situations/circumstances. IOW, a wild animal knows to run away from a human as a potential threat (just based on personal experience), while a feral cat or dog may not realize that it should be avoiding humans and their homes. That is not to say that i don't believe feral animals can be a threat or be in need of population control; more than once i've been warned by a land owner to shoot any un-collared dogs while hunting due to problems with feral dog packs damaging deer herds. Of course, i'm sure those dogs just migrated to the woods all by themselves . No offense.

Last edited by orangello; October 21, 2009 at 03:00 PM.
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Old October 21, 2009, 03:15 PM   #20
wyobohunter
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Quote:
I make an exception in regards to deer of any kind; i hate them and wish them whatever kind of death gets them first be it quick and relatively painless or slow and excruciating
Really, you hate Deer... Why?
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Old October 21, 2009, 03:37 PM   #21
orangello
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"Really, you hate Deer... Why?"
I guess i might hate fluffy bunnies if i knew as many people who had been injured in fluffy bunny-related car accidents, not to mention the damage to the cars. I also don't know anyone, me personally not "know of", who has been fatally or seriously wounded while dove hunting; while i have known a few people who were accidentally shot while deer hunting or by a deer hunter. Surely my attitude is colored by my experiences. I certainly do not oppose deer hunting as an unsafe activity, no more so than driving, and i have hunted deer many times and enjoyed it without being injured in any serious or memorable way. If i were ever rendered unable to hunt deer, i would be glad to buy my nephews some ammo for their deer hunting use.

I'm sure lots of people are injured dodging dogs on the road too, but i see & hear about far too many deer strikes to like deer.

I am not a big fan of non-animated coyotes either, but for different reasons.

edit* I should disclose that since i don't eat much meat, deer don't have much to offer me as a reason to want them around.

Last edited by orangello; October 21, 2009 at 03:56 PM.
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Old October 21, 2009, 04:24 PM   #22
simonkenton
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The comparison to lobsters in the tank would be, if you went into a restaurant that sold fried rabbit, and they had a pen in the lobby with 20 bunnies in there.
And you just picked out your bunny, and the cook took it in the back and chopped its head off, and then fried it up.

Fresh fish is better than frozen, and I bet fresh bunny would taste better than frozen.

How can y'all say that lobsters don't know that they exist? How in the world could you know that. Have you given a lobster an IQ test?
Hell a dog will look in a mirror and think it is another dog.
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Old October 21, 2009, 04:37 PM   #23
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To respond to the OP...

...it does not make you a hypocrite at all.

I am a huge animal rights activist. I donate a large amount of money to the humane society every year and hold multiple benefits for animal causes. Still, I am pro-hunting. What I am not is pro-sport hunting...and I would just as soon punch anyone in the face as speak to them that supports trophy hunting of large game such as bears, lions, etc.

I grew up hunting and I have no issue with killing something you are going to eat or give to someone else to eat. I also understand the usefulness of hunting in regards to population control (although I would rather just see predators reintroduced).

There is also no rules against enjoying the act of hunting while you are engaged in it for proper reasons. If you enjoy taking down a deer that is one thing. Turning dogs loose an adolescent bear is another thing. I always tell guys like that "if you are so insecure that killing a large animal (in a safe manner from a distance) makes you feel like a real man then come see me and see if you can take me down."
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Old October 21, 2009, 04:37 PM   #24
hogdogs
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The rabbit analogy sounds mighty tasty and if this bunny hutch were at a regular affordable restaurant, I would order it at least once.

I agree that even dogs have little capacity to reason. Lobsters are just slightly more advanced than spiders biologically speaking.

Brent
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Old October 21, 2009, 04:48 PM   #25
L_Killkenny
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Animal cruelty is a very blurry line. Under the OP's original post, most of us would consider those acts cruel. Well, all except kickin the dog. I try to do that once a day if I can . But the majority of the people who openly fight animal cruelty think that unless you treat any animal better than you treat your kids you are committing animal cruelty. I know of no one who thinks animal cruelty isn't bad. But that subject is GOING TO be an end to trapping, hunting with dogs, etc etc. If the animal rights activist get their way, pets and livestock would be a thing of the past. Is shooting a dog or clubbing a cat a bad thing? To them it is. But in reality, it's no different than putting them down with a syringe. It may even be quicker and better.

The main thing to remember is they are not people. They are a tool, clothing or a food group. Putting the slightest bit of emotion into this subject is a bad thing. Either that or get used to giving up your "meat and potato's" dinner (not by YOUR choice) and instead eating "something green and potato's" every night.

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