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Old October 22, 2009, 12:20 PM   #26
Brian Pfleuger
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If the blade failed to deploy correctly, I would
You can blame the blade for not deploying, which may make for a difficult blood trail, but you can't blame the blade for shot placement.... which is 99% of what makes a deer dead or not dead.


To the OP:

Do you not have trackers in your area? People with dogs that are sanctioned by the environmental agency for tracking wounded deer?
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Old October 22, 2009, 12:43 PM   #27
davlandrum
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Agreed.

Tyrajam - my hunting partner lives out in Veneta, off Fleck road. Still kinda "country", but all the development out that way is slowing changing that.

I live between Coburg and Harrisburg. My place is for sale if you want to move back - 9 acres, 4 bedroom farmhouse, barn, etc.....
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Old October 22, 2009, 01:30 PM   #28
kyle1974
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I've lost animals with fixed blade and mechanical blades.... so where does that leave me?

you have to have confidence with your equipment, but I think way too many of these "bad broadhead" stories are just less than ideal shots.

I've had had my shortest trail using a 3 blade rage... it was a pig about 125 lbs, and it ran less than 10 yards. I shot it at 23 yards, and it went through the front shoulder, exited through the ribcage and traveled several yards past the pig. I have also had some longer trails with the rage. I still like them because after looking at the wounds, there is no fixed blade that can compare... but if you don't think they will work, then they won't...

perhaps with lower draw weight bows, the big mechanicals aren't that great, but they are mainly a cutting entry, they odn't take that much energy to deply... try pushing on a blade and see how hard it is.... it's not much.
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Old October 22, 2009, 03:44 PM   #29
Farmland
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I'm one of the lucky ones that has never lost a deer archery hunting. I practice a lot all year long. I can tell you if the blades do not open up it isn't fun.

About 10 years ago I had a nice back that was close , broadside and head down. I hit the right spot and was stunned when the deer jumped and took off. I waited about 30 minutes and started the process of following the trail. There was some blood but not enough for the shot. However luck was on my side I found the deer laying down with it head up. I was able to get close and followed with a shot to the neck. Again a perfect hit and the deer got up and ran. I was stunned for the second time.

I waited and again followed the trail only to find the buck a short time latter still alive and laying down. The only shot I had was really to hit its back around the shoulder. This time I succeeded.

To make a long story short I had been practicing prior to going out in the evening. I make habit of practicing with the arrows I am going to use. Yes I still had the target points on and had failed to change back to the broadheads.

So I can feel you pain of them not opening for you.
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Old October 22, 2009, 04:26 PM   #30
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmland
I hit the right spot and was stunned when the deer jumped and took off. I waited about 30 minutes and started the process of following the trail. There was some blood but not enough for the shot. However luck was on my side I found the deer laying down with it head up. I was able to get close and followed with a shot to the neck. Again a perfect hit and the deer got up and ran. I was stunned for the second time....Yes I still had the target points on and had failed to change back to the broadheads.

IMHO, you could NOT have hit the right spot. "The right spot" in archery hunting is BOTH lungs. If you hit both lungs with ANYTHING then the animal will be dead in SECONDS. If you waited 30 minutes and the deer was still alive then there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that you hit both lungs.

Crap happens, but no one should take a shot with a bow and arrows where there is not a very high degree of certainty that BOTH lungs will be hit. I've had my share of shots that didn't work out like I planned and I didn't hit both lungs, however, if I didn't hit both lungs then I DIDN'T hit the "right spot".

If you hit both lungs, even with a field point, then that animal has taken it's last breathe and has no more than 10-15 seconds of consciousness.
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Old October 22, 2009, 04:42 PM   #31
Farmland
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That would be great and if everyone could shoot 100% and hit one lung that is great. The right spot to me is the area that will in fact do that. However can you be off just a fraction of a inch? You bet you can, now as far as I remember I had clipped the lungs on the first shot.

I must be pretty good at the right spot since I have never lost a deer and in fact this is the only one that I can remember that ever ran more than a few feet.

In any event hitting a deer with a field tip or broadhead that doesn't open can result in unexpected things.

Did I do the right thing at shooting at a deer in the neck since that was the only open shot on a deer that I had hit 100% where you should have the first time? AT the time I thought so. Should I have taken the last shot with the deer showing the only open shot the back? It worked for a kill at the time. After all I had an arrow through the chest / lung area and the neck. I just didn't know it was a very small hole.

In any event things happen and the main point is that you are in fact at a disadvantage when a broadhead doesn't open or you do something stupid like using fieldtips.
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Old October 22, 2009, 06:02 PM   #32
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I think there is a reason we use broadheads when hunting and not field points. Broadheads do more damage. It's not necessarily about leaving a bigger blood trail, it's about doing more damage. If I jam an ice pick through my hand, I will bleed but I will bleed less than if I had stuck a butcher knife through my hand because an icepick does less damage.


A deer hit in both lungs with a 30-06 might be able run up to two hundred yards due to the oxygen stored in the muscles but the quicker it loses blood pressure to the brain, the quicker it will stop.
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Old October 23, 2009, 07:48 PM   #33
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Bear razorheads
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Old October 25, 2009, 03:01 AM   #34
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undead zone

I have become something of a fanatic on broadhead lethality and try to autopsy me deer as best I can, and get a bit leery of fast follow ups.

And having lost a deer now and then, there is no worse feeling. If you ever get to "brushing it off" stop hunting.

I believe there are several "undead zones" ( I stole this from somewhere) on a deer: one is high, ahead of the diaphram, but that does not cut the descending aorta, not lacerate the lungs and I believe the deer can survive.

Another is right at the diaphram. This will be fatal, but a deer can survive a long time. the lungs get barely lacerated, as does the liver. the diaphram serves to channel some of the internal bleeding back into the paunch, and a trail will be scarce. the arrow will look good, no gut showing and lots of blood, and the impression will be a doulble lung hit. If you are the least bit doubtful that your shot was maybe to far back, give the deer minimum 6 hrs.
Overnight is better. And do not try to follow, but sneak out, awoy from deer and playing the wind in your favor.

On a quiatering shot, there is the "one lunger" the arrow passe ahead of the diaphram, lacerates one lung, but misses big arteries and the other lung, usually exiting low due to tree stand shot. I have seen deer so hit go 6 hrs plus, and followed to soon, run long distances and be lost.

If you do not see your deer go down, are not absolutely certain of a GOOD hit, or hear a crash, avoid a 30-60 minute follow up.

If you do not recover your deer on a reasonable distance on the initial followup, one did not likely get the hit they thought, and its time to bvack off and reassess.

I shoot Bear Razorheads, have for over 30 years. Murphy again
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Old October 26, 2009, 07:33 PM   #35
zahnzieh
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Again, The Rage broadheads rely on an O-ring which tends to wear out especially if re-used. The blades need to "click" into position to work properly and a worn O-ring will cause premature opening in quiver etc... Then add the added complexity and energy needed to deploy 3 blades . . I will not use 3-bladed mechanicals - just not necessary. Other bad mechanicals i have tried - Crimsopn talons and Spitfires.
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Old October 26, 2009, 08:36 PM   #36
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Well, I've never not had a broadhead open. On animals, targets...whatever. Never have seen it in the 20 or so different mechanicals that I have shot. Over thousands of shots

As far as shot placement, your statement bothers me a bit...
Quote:
if everyone could shoot 100% and hit one lung that is great....you be off just a fraction of a inch?
If everyone was 100%, every shot would be a heart and double lung. And yes, I can be off by a fraction of an inch. But I promise you that a fraction of an inch is not going to make a difference where I'm aiming...5 inches maybe.

A deer can be killed in any direction he/she is facing...and I'll shoot it there. The vitals can be reached. I've seen deer go down in 30 yds from a slam liver hit, and go 150 from a double lung(not mine, 3 blade Muzzy). It's all up to the deer. I'm not going to say that I've never lost a deer, but the ones I've lost were not due to me taking a questionable shot, they were deflections or not realizing the how the deer was quartering. I'm confident in my equipment and abilities to put my arrow where needed. But on the same hand, if I'm not 100% sure, I don't shoot.

bamaranger:
Another Dead zone is high and forward thru the shoulder. Limited blood on the arrow and speckled at best on the ground. Trailed a few of those, and one of my own. Never found any.

zahnzieh:
The Spitfire is tied for most lethal broad I've ever shot. There are problems with sharp quartering away shots. The blades sometimes catch before the tip and "flip" before the tip penetrates. (hunting terminology can sound so dirty) But they are one of the best for broadside shots. Nasty even.

I've never heard of State Ordained Trackers. I know guys with good dogs, but none affiliated with the state.
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Old October 28, 2009, 02:10 AM   #37
bamaranger
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undead zone

A while back, I took a shot at a meat buck. It was evening, but still shooting light. range was under 15yds. I was in a tree stand, about 15 feet up (low for me) The stand was on a moderate hillside, the deer was downhill, so I was likely 20 ft up from the deer. All this to say the angle for the shot was sorta steep. The shot looked ok. The arrow said pass through, but little blood on the arrow, and less on the ground. I got 2 friends and we tried to track, for hours, no luck.

Three months later, another guy who hunts the same property brought a cape by the house. It was the meat buck. He'd killed it w/ a rifle couple of days before. He and the cape told this story. The arrow had deflected off the shoulder blade, entering, passing beneath the hide, and exiting about 4-6 inches lower, all on the shoulder blade. Never got in the cavity. He said deer acted fine and the wound was clearly completely healed!!

Bad shot on my part, 3 inches off and steep angle didn't help. Failed to focus ( I KNEW I'd get him) and blew it.

Good news. Some do survive.
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Old October 29, 2009, 10:50 AM   #38
tyrajam
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OK, here's the pic of the doe I shot. I told you guys it wasn't a bad shot, I was very surprised she stayed on her feet. I guess sometimes that just happens.

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Old November 1, 2009, 03:51 AM   #39
bamaranger
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say what?

Shooting multiple field points at a deer, and not realizing it, is about the craziest darn thing I have ever heard.
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Old November 1, 2009, 08:43 PM   #40
castnblast
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I never trusted the way those rage broadheads open. I have had Excellent luck with my relatively inexpensive Sidewinders. They have a large "catch" that grips and rips them open. The rages have oposing forces that open them, and I can see how could be susceptable to not opening. I have lost count of the number of animals I've killed with those, and the broadheads opened every time. I thought I had my first failure last year, but turns out when the buck jumped the string, and I caught him above the back strap. I know so, because I saw him (nice 10) during doe season, w/a hole above his shoulder. I've seen him this year, and I hope to whack him.

I went to expandables 6 years ago, when my son was born - I didn't want him to get his fingers in my quiver accidentally. I have had such good luck, and their accuracy is so perfect, I won't go back to fixed blades.
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Old November 3, 2009, 11:45 AM   #41
wpcexpert
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Quote:
I told you guys it wasn't a bad shot
So...what's the big hole in her neck from?

Also, judging from the hole in her shoulder...the blades opened just fine. An arrow doesn't make that kind of hole unless the blades open.
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Old November 3, 2009, 12:16 PM   #42
Brian Pfleuger
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BTW:

As I mentioned, stick with the 2-blade Rage. This wound is from the 2-Blade (just got this guy last night). He went 40 yards. This picture is untouched, literally, this is the exact position that the deer was in when we found him. Hit one lung and the aorta.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0050.jpg (46.5 KB, 84 views)
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Old November 4, 2009, 02:47 AM   #43
bamaranger
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wow

That is an amazing wound, am I correct in believing it is an exit?

Is that the throat patch on the neck, just above? At risk of taking thread in wrong direction, can you describe the shot, angles, distance, etc.
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Old November 4, 2009, 11:18 AM   #44
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
That is an amazing wound, am I correct in believing it is an exit?
No, that's what's amazing about the Rage. That's the ENTRANCE. In fact, there was no exit. We haven't cut him up yet, but I believe I hit the shoulder on the other side. I actually hit a little lower than would be ideal, though it's hard to argue with the results. I was about 20 feet up a tree, he was about 18 yards slightly quartering away. Thats the wonder of the Rage. More than any other broadhead I've seen it makes bad shots "mediocre", mediocre shots "good" and good shots "unbelievable". My only gripe is that the blades are sensitive to be dislodged while walking with a nocked arrow, but as a tree stand blade, they're unbeatable.
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Old November 4, 2009, 10:24 PM   #45
bamaranger
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WOW

I have seen a lot of broadhead wounds, all from fixed blades, mine or others.

I have never seen anything like that, on an ENTRANCE wound!!!!!! Its hard to argue against those kind of results.

My old Razorheads don't have to "open", but.....still, ......if I believed mechanicals would do that every time, I'd reconsider the issue.

BTW
Used to hunt w/ a group of fellows/club that used the Simmons Interceptor, which is a BIG fixed blade, 175 gr, can't remember the cut diameter, it was at least 1.5-1.75" It was killer, but needed heavy draw weight and large arrows/fletch to stabilize and not drop like a rock. All of them have switched to something more conventional as they aged and have reduced draw/holding weight.
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Old November 4, 2009, 10:29 PM   #46
Brian Pfleuger
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Sorry, I forgot to tell you exactly where that hole is.... that "patch" of white is just ruffled hair on the shoulder. The right leg is the portion extending off the right center of the picture. The impact was roughly 1/3 of the way up the side, just behind the shoulder. Obviously effective, but lower than would be ideal for the distance and height off the ground.
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Old November 5, 2009, 01:45 PM   #47
hardluk1
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I have stayed with cut on contact broad heads for years . Some time harder to tune a bow with them but they always work . Also a friend has used the g5 montec from there begining and it is the same basic type of blade. They always tend to open a gapping wound even if there is know pass thru. And hay Nuggent has use cut on contact for years with lower poundage than most of use shoot. Can't be all bad.
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