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Old October 21, 2009, 10:18 AM   #26
Tennessee Gentleman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicineBow
And while I know this forced banana-denial is no picnic, I had no idea it was unconstitutional. And treason.
The right to keep and eat bananas shall not be infringed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge
To the Chicken Liittles who fear such a group, there is nothing I can say to ease your fears.
I think you have it wrong Sarge. The chicken littles are those in sympathy with the Oath Keepers to wit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge
Either grab a rudder & steer or be prepared to ride the ship into the rocks. The ship of state proceeds toward its inevitable fate, with or without you.
I have no fear of such a fate and you shouldn't either.
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Old October 21, 2009, 01:11 PM   #27
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Quote:
I think you have it wrong Sarge. The chicken littles are those in sympathy with the Oath Keepers to wit:
I don't think it is chicken little. There is a decidedly statist agenda in play with this administration. I would never be a part of any organization that would espouse violence, insurrection or illegality. While I have my misgivings about the agenda of the current administration I take my oath to enforce the laws and defend the Constitution fervently

However, I have great faith in America to right the pendulum with the ballot box.
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Old October 21, 2009, 01:14 PM   #28
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We seem to be wandering into current politics and views of the administration. Not really the charge of L and CR. So, can we keep away from that? Or we will start a debate about the validity of wacky claims from the fringes of the left and right - and then a closure.
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Old October 21, 2009, 01:41 PM   #29
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Quote:
It doesn't make me very popular to point it out, but we've seen a resurgence of a certain hard-line, "what part of my cold dead hands don't you understand" fanatacism the last few years. The election only served to exacerbate that.

The next Timothy McVeigh will have ties to at least one of these groups.

I'm not saying that this'll happen to the Oath Keepers, nor am I saying that it'll be the fault of whatever group counts him among its members. But I worry that when something does happen, the repercussions will affect the whole gun rights movement by association.

Bingo.

I am retired Army. If I were on active duty and was asked to sign their "oath" someone would get a good old fashioned cursing. These guys fail to realize that if their guns are ever taken they will be taken by the cop that they work out with at the gym and that nice deputy who lives across the street.

There have been a dramatic resurgence of far out groups in just the past year. On some sites there are people calling for armed rebellion. Threats against the POTUS are up 400 percent in one year.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_ts950

Quote:
Talking Points Memo noted that Ronald Kessler, the author of a recently released book on the Secret Service's protection of U.S. presidents, recently said that threats against President Obama are up 400 percent from the number of threats levied against former President George W. Bush, while the size of the agency's staff has only increased by 5.3 percent.
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Old October 21, 2009, 01:48 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagonman
I don't think it is chicken little.
I think it is. Regardless of the leanings of any administration left or right I think the state of affairs for civil rights and in particular gun rights is pretty good in the US of A. Not perfect but we are getting there.

Groups like Oath Keepers don't help us because they say you can't work within the system to fix the problems. I don't disagree that states like CA who pass these absurd gun control bills are silly, but I believe a lot of those problems can be fixed by our system which is the best in the world.

Oath Keepers are telling you these issues can't be addressed unless you disobey orders or worse. BTW, fear exploits people it never helps them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagonman
There is a decidedly statist agenda in play with this administration.
Yeah, so what? There are checks and balances to keep them from just doing whatever they want isn't there? See healthcare. Even with clear majorities they still have to deal with the opposition. If they overplay their hand, then they are out in 2010 or 2012. What they want to do and what they can do are two very different things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagonman
I have great faith in America to right the pendulum with the ballot box.
Me too. But we don't need Oath Keepers to do that. Just participation in the process.
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Old October 21, 2009, 02:05 PM   #31
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Quote:
These guys fail to realize that if their guns are ever taken they will be taken by the cop that they work out with at the gym and that nice deputy who lives across the street.
This is Exactly what Oath Keepers is all about, That is, to ask the "cop you work out with" or that nice deputy, to remember the oath they swore to if things ever do get ugly. I don't believe their agenda is to make things ugly, just to be prepared if it somehow happens.
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Old October 21, 2009, 02:14 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OuTcAsT
That is, to ask the "cop you work out with" or that nice deputy, to remember the oath they swore to if things ever do get ugly. I don't believe their agenda is to make things ugly, just to be prepared if it somehow happens.
And as a guy who served under such an oath in the military for 25 years I would be very insulted by such a "reminder". These professionals know what their oath is and if they break the oath it will be because of their willful misconduct and no "reminder" will otherwise inhibit them.

That would be like someone comng up to me before a deployment saying "Please remember the Law of War and don't intentionally shoot any innocent civilians." That would really tick me off.

By the fact that these kooky Oath Keepers are even posing these kooky orders we won't obey they are introducing a problem into the dialog that isn't even there. Sort of like the "When did you stop beating your wife?".

Blockades and concentration camps! What a bunch of hooey!!!!
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Old October 21, 2009, 03:43 PM   #33
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Quote:
Blockades and concentration camps! What a bunch of hooey!!!!
Exactly. Many of the far outers get all their news from the World Net Daily. WND is the home of the "oathkeepers" and the "birthers." Rense has a detailed list of the "concentration camps" in the US. Is there a camp in your state just waiting for you? According to some of the far outers FEMA is in charge of the "concentration camps."

All it would take is one incident by a few nutcases to turn the US population against all gun owners. I am more concerned about a serious incident by one of these wacky groups than I am about an attack by al Queda. It has become fashionable for folks to listen to the railings of G. Gordon Liddy, convicted Watergate felon. Liddy bragged that he had planned to murder columnist Jack Anderson.

http://www.wnd.com/

http://www.rense.com/general17/statebystate.htm

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Old October 21, 2009, 06:51 PM   #34
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Quote:
they are introducing a problem into the dialog that isn't even there. Sort of like the "When did you stop beating your wife?"
I knew there was something about it that bugged me, and you put the finger on it. The whole idea of this is a bit condescending towards those who took such oaths in good faith the first time.

Quote:
These guys fail to realize that if their guns are ever taken they will be taken by the cop that they work out with at the gym and that nice deputy who lives across the street.
Getting into TEOWASTF stuff here, but if "they" come to take our guns, "they" aren't going to be the cops and soldiers we know. The cops and soldiers we know are American citizens who already took these oaths. Every one I've met took their commitment seriously.

If things were to turn into Airstrip One and such orders were given, these men would not follow them. Oaths aside, they're got families and communities to consider.

So, what force would be left for the government to enforce tyrannical laws? Perhaps a few ill-intenioned mercenaries, but there aren't enough sociopaths to man that sort of army very well.
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Old October 21, 2009, 09:11 PM   #35
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Thanks, mods for keeping this thread open. It is interesting to see some honest, passionate debate going on from both sides of the issue. I will ask both sides of the argument one fundamental question; Have we not seen the erosion of our fundamental rights as citizens of the US over the past decade? How soon will we see this erode into the loss of our RKBA? I am aiming to keep this thread focused on the primary issue as far as this forum is concerned. To those of you who have vehemently smeared the organization mentioned, I would suggest you seriously study your history. Concentrate on the writings of Jefferson as he best represents the intentions and desires of the founding fathers who sought to create a government that stood for the people. To think that such things as mentioned in the 10 points of Oath Keepers cannot happen here is at best naive and contains a certain element of arrogance, as though the US is somehow immune from human nature that has reared its head throughout history.
To those otherwise disposed, I would urge you to work within the system to elect those who best represent the views you wish expressed. I will admit with all candor that the government that exists today has strayed far from the original intent of the founding fathers. This cannot be laid completely at the feet of any one political party, and all must accept part of the blame that has led us here to this point. I also urge you not to be swayed by emotion and unsubstiantiated rumor, but to strive for the truth, and to use that as the basis of your reasoning.
I would urge all to refrain from needless name-calling and to focus on the issues at hand. Our great country is at a crossroad. It should be with the greatest sobriety and self searching that we arrive at the direction which we take from this moment forward.
In closing I will say that the RKBA is the greatest right we have in this country, as it underpins every other freedom we have. It is, to paraphrase Jefferson, the ultimate of all checks and balances written within the framework of the Constitution. It is not to be used lightly. I will remind you all that the ultimate price of freedom is paid in blood, and always will be.
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Old October 21, 2009, 09:51 PM   #36
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A Couple of Observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronl
Have we not seen the erosion of our fundamental rights as citizens of the US over the past decade?
As far as civil liberties go we are freer today than in any time in our history. Problem is, many folk on TFL can't see past the second amendment. Even though today we have regained many 2A rights lost in the preceding century like CCW and Heller which was the first case in our entire history that gave us the individual RKBA. Sorry, but if I had to trade the good 'ole days of Jim Crow and corrupt political machines like Tammany Hall in order to be able to buy machine guns through the mail. I'd give up the machine guns!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronl
To those of you who have vehemently smeared the organization mentioned, I would suggest you seriously study your history. Concentrate on the writings of Jefferson as he best represents the intentions and desires of the founding fathers who sought to create a government that stood for the people.
I am very familiar with history and have read much from Thomas Jefferson. I see nothing in his writings that would give credence to an organization like the Oath Keepers. What specific things are you talking about that the government has done or is doing that threatens our freedoms? Where is this oppression?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronl
To think that such things as mentioned in the 10 points of Oath Keepers cannot happen here is at best naive and contains a certain element of arrogance,
Lots of things can happen but in 200 years nothing like what the Oath Keepers fear has happened. I think paranoia and fearmongering may be a worse offense than naivete and arrogance. People who are paranoid and afraid can sometimes do really bad things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronl
Our great country is at a crossroad.
Of what? We are always at a crossroad. What are we faced with now? Please give specifics and not something banal like "freedom or tyranny".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronl
In closing I will say that the RKBA is the greatest right we have in this country, as it underpins every other freedom we have.
ALL of the Bill of Rights are the same in importance. The RKBA is NOT the greatest or the only of these rights. All are equally important. Don't believe me? Go to Somalia, they have lots of guns, not much freedom though.

The irony of this all is that these kooky militia type organizations are a greater danger to our liberty and freedom than some liberal politician we don't like. We can vote out the politician, not so the kooky militia.
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Old October 21, 2009, 11:16 PM   #37
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Our great country is at a crossroad. It should be with the greatest sobriety and self searching that we arrive at the direction which we take from this moment forward.
To paraphrase Carmine Lupertazzi, we always think we're at the precipice of an enormous crossroads. Every generation thinks they've got it worse than the last. It's just a weird facet of human nature.

I don't see how lining up and chanting an oath will help that. And therein lies the problem: too many grand gestures and too little doing anything. Instead of waving our fists and shouting slogans, perhaps we should focus on keeping in touch with legislators and converting people to the cause.

The op-ed pages are still open for submissions. How about cancelling that plane ticket to the next tea party and granting the money to a pro-2A (or any civil rights) organization?

In case nobody's noticed, we won a major victory in the judicial branch last year, and we stand to win an even larger one next year. Concealed carry has spread throughout the Union like wildfire, and even with the control of two branches of government, those who would further infringe upon our rights are surprisingly silent.

This is certainly no time to rest on our laurels, but neither is it cause to run around in fatigues screaming "OMG end of the Repulb1c!" That just tends to frighten people on the fence.

And the people on the fence are the ones we need to be reaching.
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Old October 21, 2009, 11:36 PM   #38
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I'm curious as to how the association of police & military personnel, with Oath Keepers, will somehow be seen as associated with the 2A movement at large?

And a final point....the 'oath' referred to by this organization is not some swearing of allegiance to a fringe militia organization. It is to an oath already sworn.

Quote:
Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of currently serving military, reserves, National Guard, veterans, Peace Officers, and Fire Fighters who will fulfill the Oath we swore, with the support of like minded citizens who take an Oath to stand with us, to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, so help us God. Our Oath is to the Constitution

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/
I am a little perplexed that such an effort has been painted here as undermining the 2A effort, appearing to associate with lunatics, etc.; and further to discourage people from attending 'tea parties' and other freedom rallies.

But only a little perplexed. The notion of that some folks actually consider themselves competent to read and understand the Constitution, without the oversight of government, just scares the britches off of some folks and there appears to be no known cure for that.
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Old October 22, 2009, 12:09 AM   #39
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The problem Sarge, is that people have a very, very short memory.

[sarcasm]
What happened in NO, after Katrina was an aberration and will never, ever happen again. Right? We should all keep telling ourselves this....
[/sarcasm]
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Old October 22, 2009, 12:18 AM   #40
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...and if 10% of those officers had the stones to tell their handlers that Nagin was not God, and could not neuter the Constitution with an administrative order- the NO gun confiscations might never have happened.

All the more important to nurture the concept of individual freedom in their minds BEFORE the event, rather than after.

Thanks Al.
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Old October 22, 2009, 02:17 AM   #41
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Quote:
To paraphrase Carmine Lupertazzi, we always think we're at the precipice of an enormous crossroads. Every generation thinks they've got it worse than the last. It's just a weird facet of human nature.
Bing! And as a corrolary, pretty much each generation also thinks that the NEXT generation has it easy and are a bunch of losers.

Quote:
and even with the control of two branches of government, those who would further infringe upon our rights are surprisingly silent.
Because the pro-gun-control people don't control dirt. Most of the Democrats learned their lesson about gun control after 1994, the smarter members of the herd have a strong incentive to rein in the people who still believe that stuff.

thallub, the irony is that Rense is/was also popular with some of the conspiraloons on the left when it was Bush's name attached to the "concentration camps" and all that jazz. It really is true that if you go far enough off either end of the political stage you end up in the same place.

Quote:
I am a little perplexed that such an effort has been painted here as undermining the 2A effort, appearing to associate with lunatics, etc.; and further to discourage people from attending 'tea parties' and other freedom rallies.
Sarge, the problem isn't the idea, it's the rhetoric and paranoia that they're using to advance it. City-wide concentration camps? Seriously?
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Old October 22, 2009, 05:19 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antipitas
What happened in NO, after Katrina was an aberration and will never, ever happen again. Right? We should all keep telling ourselves this....
What stopped Nagin's tactics? A court order. In TN and LA laws were passed that if a Nagin ever does that again he might face prosecution. It may happen again but the Oath Keepers won't stop it, our system will. Interesting thing about Katrina though. What did you hear most folk crying for after the storm? More guns or the government to come help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge
the 'oath' referred to by this organization is not some swearing of allegiance to a fringe militia organization. It is to an oath already sworn.
Then why swear to it again? The Good Book say: Let your yes be yes and your no be no. If a person has no intention of keeping that oath making him swear to it a 100 times won't matter, will it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge
...and if 10% of those officers had the stones to tell their handlers that Nagin was not God,
You know a lot of LEOs that were involved with that confiscation weren't even from LA? Nagin had no real control over them anyway. Which was a larger problem than the oath silliness.
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Old October 22, 2009, 07:37 AM   #43
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You know, Nnobby45 provided a link to the Oath Keepers back in March and I read their stuff then. For the life of me, I cannot see a reason to be a part of such an organization.
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Old October 22, 2009, 09:33 AM   #44
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Quote:
It is to an oath already sworn.
Sorta like the pledge of allegiance.

Quote:
What stopped Nagin's tactics? A court order.
Quote:
You know a lot of LEOs that were involved with that confiscation weren't even from LA? Nagin had no real control over them anyway. Which was a larger problem than the oath silliness
Kinda trying to have it both ways aren't you? Either he was culpable for the actions or not?

I have pretty much decided against joining but I don't disparage them either.
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Old October 22, 2009, 10:01 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagonman
Sorta like the pledge of allegiance.
Not really an oath IMO. More ceremonial than otherwise. Here is a good link to read about differing interpretations. http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/03/2...yalty-oath.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagonman
Kinda trying to have it both ways aren't you? Either he was culpable for the actions or not?
No, I'm just refuting that out of state police thought Nagin was "god" to those officers as Sarge said. Nagin is only culpable for the actions he intiated. If those cops were acting under his orders then yes he was culpable but I am not sure what the command relationship was. They may have been acting on their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagonman
I have pretty much decided against joining
I agree with your decision.
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Old October 22, 2009, 10:30 AM   #46
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History teaches that all Republics and Democracies eventually fail and turn into a dictatorship. The most famous is the Roman Empire.

The ten orders that the Oath Keepers would not obey all deal with constitutional issues such as the freedom of speech (1st Amendment), the right of the people to bear arms (the 2nd Amendment), right to a trial by jury (6th Amendment), unreasonable search and seizure (4th Amendment) and so on.

Many people hold that all welfare payments including corporate welfare is unconstitutional, but the Supreme Court of the U. S. will not grant standing to any citizen to contest the issue before the Supremes. They has written that it is a political question that must be left to the legislative branch; which contains the people who most benefit from the vote buying scheme.
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Old October 22, 2009, 11:14 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mello2u
History teaches that all Republics and Democracies eventually fail and turn into a dictatorship. The most famous is the Roman Empire.
Rome never had the type of government we have today. The Senate was controlled by patricians and there was no universal voting or independent judiary. Apples and Oranges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mello2u
The ten orders that the Oath Keepers would not obey all deal with constitutional issues
That try to scare people by bringing up abuses that have no chance of happening throughout our country. Fearmongering. BTW does the guy that started this outfit get paid? Are there "dues" or does he ask for $upport? Follow the money.
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Old October 22, 2009, 11:52 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TG
What stopped Nagin's tactics? A court order.
Yup. After the guns had been confiscated. After the citizens had been assaulted and battered, under color of law. The Courts are a great place to correct the wrong, after the wrong has been committed. And as we should all know, full restitution has never been achieved. For those of you that are short on memory, it has been well documented.

Nagin did issue the order. His Chief of police did carry out the order. That order was communicated to all other LEO's and National Guard.

Laws were already in place that should have prevented this in the first place. That is documented. Adding new laws will not prevent it from happening again. That's a given... Simply considering what we have gone through with respect to gun-control should be the tip-off: The older laws did not curtail crime. New laws have not curtailed crime.

Oath Keepers is not a militia movement, despite all the rhetoric that is being said here and elswhere.

Oath Keepers does not require anyone to resubmit (retake) their oath of service. They do endorse that those considering membership, remember their sworn oath and hold to it. Oath Keepers mission is to remind us of that oath. To educate those that don't understand what it means.

Board of Directors of Oath Keepers:
Sgt. Dave Freeman (RET), Las Vegas Metro, and Army veteran. National Peace Officer Liaison.

LCDR David R. Gillie, USN. National Liaison to current Serving Military Officers.

Capt. Chauncey Normandin (RET), Lowell (MA) PD, and Army veteran. Florida State Director.

Capt. Gregory Gooch (Ret), Merchant Marine, and Viet Nam Era Navy veteran. Texas State Director.

Chief Celia S. Hyde (RET), Bolton (MA) PD. Member, International Association of Chiefs of Police. Oath Keepers Massachusetts State Director.

Sgt. Rand Cardwell. U.S.M.C. veteran (Desert Storm). Tennessee State Director.

Elias Alias. U.S.M.C. veteran (Vietnam). Montana State Director.

Robert A. Gomez, MSgt, USAF (RET). Oklahoma State Director.
Add to this that S.W.A.T. magazine endorses the group should say something about their legitimacy. Neither Denny Hansen (Editor) nor Rich Lucibella (Owner of the mag and TFL) would put their names behind an illegitimate organization.

So just who is doing the fear mongering here?
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Old October 22, 2009, 12:17 PM   #49
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Maybe if the german military had a club like this, it would have been easier for them to declare an affective NO! When they were ordered to do something they knew to be wrong.
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Old October 22, 2009, 12:41 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge
All the more important to nurture the concept of individual freedom in their minds BEFORE the event, rather than after.
And one of the ironies of this whole thing is the notion that the way to "nurture the concept of individual freedom" is to get people to (drum roll here) join a group.

If an individual soldier refuses to obey an order he or she believes to be unlawful, that's a matter of conscience, of individual freedom, if you will; and it can be done honorably, as a matter of civil disobedience in which the individual accepts the legal consequences of doing so. The case of Ehren Watada, who refused an order to deploy to Iraq because he believed the war there to be illegal, is an instructive example of this. (And given the Oath Keepers' #5, "We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty," they should also be refusing to serve there, it seems to me.)

But when a group of soldiers refuses to obey orders and decides to resist instead, that's, well, mutiny, which is not remotely the same as civil disobedience.

So... when I looked at their website, they completely lost me with this:
"If you, the American people, are forced to once again fight for your liberty in another American Revolution, you will not be alone. We will stand with you."
Do I have this right? There are NO conditions attached to the above statement, are there? These folks -- whose whole point, ostensibly, is that they're explicitly sworn to uphold the Constitution "against all enemies, foreign and domestic" -- are saying that they'd support an attempt to overthrow the Government. The, um, Constitutionally mandated, duly elected Government.

They can't have it both ways. This goes well beyond reminding those who serve that they swore an oath to uphold the Constitution. Combined with the fearmongering which TG rightly points out, it's not a pretty picture, no matter how they try to dress it up in ersatz patriotism.

And perhaps S.W.A.T. magazine ought to reconsider its endorsement...
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"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)
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