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Old October 19, 2009, 09:56 PM   #26
greensteelforge
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Boy, I think there are more important considerations to be taken into account than a guy's preferred drink or smoke. If someone is unsafe in their behavior, regardless of whether they are drunk, high, hyper-active, or stupid, they should be asked to unload their weapon, and refrain from participating in the rest of the hunt. If you can't tell, and his behavior would otherwise be normal and acceptable, you really shouldn't express things any further than your discomfort with the use of inebriant substances while hunting, and make a personal decision (like the other members of the party) whether to take part in the hunt. I personally do not use any kind of drug while hunting or shooting, and never have. I drink alcohol regularly, have smoked marijuana regularly in the past, and never felt any lure to anything harder. I doubt very much whether a joint (even one of those "high potency" joints) would cause anything but a failure to respond to a target in time. I've never witnessed anyone become animated, wild, or erratic under the influence of pot, just slower moving, and prone to pontification. Alcohol while hunting does concern me greatly, and is far more prevalent in the shooting sports than pot. Alcohol causes a real loss of control both mentally and physically unless consumed in strict moderation (something which hunting trips away from the wife and kids aren't known for). Even an alcohol hangover is dangerous when armed. Alcohol producers even tailor a wide variety of promotional products to the hunting sports market, I even saw a pretty impressive selection of liquor flasks for sale at an NRA national convention in Milwaukee. Every one of us who hunts knows plenty of fellow hunters who drink heavily the night before a hunt, drink while hunting, or with lunch on a hunt, so let's not blow things out of proportion here. No substances while hunting is best, but we don't get to make anybody's decisions but our own, and the real call is whether or not to go along.
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Old October 19, 2009, 10:52 PM   #27
NWPilgrim
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You should do what you are comfortable with, not what we think you should do. You are paying the guide for a hunt, you should have the experience you want. The guide may accommodate or tell you to get lost.

Personally, I just do not hunt or shoot with anyone needing a drink or toke beforehand, whatever the reason. There may be legal risks, and safety risks. I don't need that. Some guys may do OK partaking beforehand but it is simpler for me to just walk away from that. There are other times, places and buddies with whom to hunt.

Him offering you guys (non-medical cases) a toke indicates he is more than just a medical case himself and demonstrates very poor judgment. I can't imagine that the guide doesn't already know.
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Old October 19, 2009, 11:25 PM   #28
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No question for me. Drugs, including alcohol, and firearms do not mix!!!!!!!!!
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Old October 20, 2009, 12:08 AM   #29
Fat White Boy
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I would think if he were lighting up, about an hour into the hunt he would want to go to Taco Bell... And no, with all due respect to his injuries, I wouldn't hunt with him.
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Old October 20, 2009, 01:15 AM   #30
SigP6Carry
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you know what... I'm conflicted. Nobody should mix marijuana, alcohol or mind altering drugs with firearms... but... in a case that marijuana is prescribed medicinally I see it as nothing more than a simple pain killer for chronic pain. I also don't see a couple of beers as an issue, because I know that personally I can drink 3-5 beers before I feel anything other than a stiffness in my shoulders. But I know that different people have different reactions to such things (such as I've got a friend that is solid drunk after 2 drinks).

So, here's my new, rethought advice: unless you personally know that that person can handle that type of chemical in that type of dosage and still be fine, it's fine for you. But, if you're uncomfortable with it, do whatever you feel is right. It's not my place to tell you what your opinions on drugs/alcohol should be, but you should be more tolerant of what certain substances do what to certain people.

Scrap, if I were in your position and was uncomfortable: I would have turned him in. If I were in your position, though, I doubt I'd be uncomfortable enough to turn anyone in. Just a difference of opinion on certain issues.
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Old October 20, 2009, 02:10 AM   #31
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Drugs and alcohol and guns do not mix, period. Not to mention, what he is doing is illegal, regardless of what he is using it for. Call the police next time you see it. I have some real nice silver bracelets for him. If others have a problem with it, then I would look for a new group of guys to hunt with. The fact is, regardless of what your tolerence level is, the minute the narcotic enters your system, your mental and physical faculties are impaired. Pot heads that smoke on a regular basis might no feel the effects as much do to there tolerence, but the effects are still there. You can't legally drive a vehicle under the influence of marijuana, what makes you think you can grab a gun and go hunting. It is not safe for you or anyone else to be around this guy while he is under the influence. I would definetly speak up about it.
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Old October 20, 2009, 05:38 AM   #32
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Trooper, I`ll grant you that by offering to let someone else smoke his stuff is illegal but if Scraps group live`s in a state where MJ is legal for medicinal purpose`s then by just simply smoking it himself, I can`t see where he broke anymore laws than someone handling a gun while taking pain killers, anti-depressants,etc. I know many people from many professions that are on some kind of mind altering prescription drug and function normally/safely everyday. Some are friends of mine and LEO`s. Which brings up a point, are all LEO`s and Firemen exempt from daily random drug/alcohol testing? I know when the Fed Guidelines for testing came out, FOP and our local Fire Union lobbyed very hard to get exempt and won. Doesn`t seem right as most all our other civil servants, especially those with CDL`s are randomly() tested.
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Old October 20, 2009, 06:34 AM   #33
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Using it for medicinal purposes is one thing - but offering it to someone else is not cool. Now it's no longer medicinal and it makes one wonder how truly medicinal his use is. If he was on vicodin instead would it be cool to offer some around as well? Both are crimes. I would inform the guide.
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Old October 20, 2009, 07:05 AM   #34
Uncle Billy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap5000, in his original post:
... I could tell he was not intoxicated, and so I didn't mind hunting with him. ...
In other words, he handled his gun safely, didn't make the boat unstable, didn't set the blind on fire... If he did none of those things, then what does it matter what the state of his blood chemistry was? Whatever he had or had not ingested, his manual skills and judgement weren't apparently impaired, and his behavior provided no risks. What more than that do you require of him? That he keep the law? What if he cheated on his income tax, or broke the speed limit, or talked on his cell phone while driving? Cut the guy some slack- if his use of Mexican Laughing Weed compromised my legal position in terms of possession, then I wouldn't associate with him. But simply knowing how he self-medicates wouldn't affect how I'd relate to him if what he took (legal or not) didn't affect how he acted. If he was clumsy, or unsafe, or behaved in some way that made me uncomfortable, then I wouldn't want to be around him when he was handling a loaded shotgun in a crowded boat, no matter what it was that made him that way, legal or not.

My dad used to hunt and fish with a guy, his best friend, who fell out of boats, accidently fired his .30-30 in the cabin about every other trip, walked through the watch and got lost for 2 days killing the hunt as everyone had to look for him, and generally had no manual skills to speak of. I thought him to be too big of a risk but my dad and the others in the group loved the guy so tolerated his inadvertent antics, albeit while keeping a close eye on him. It finally got so bad that my uncle, who went on the hunting trips, asked me to load some .30-30's that looked and felt like live rounds but wouldn't fire, that he could secretly substitute. So for the last 3 or 4 years that they hunted, his rifle wouldn't fire, but he never caught on because he never saw any deer. I suspect that bagging a white tail wasn't really the point of the trip in those later years anyway, the nightly poker games, dirty jokes, cigars and Martinis, and walks in the fall woods with dear lifelong friends were, the guns really just props left over from different purposes for going on a "hunting trip".
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Old October 20, 2009, 10:33 AM   #35
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Well... I am one who will admit that a couple beers severely diminishes my ability to shoot decent groups.

A little pot (doob or 3) only reduces the ability to get on target fast enuff.

I would much rather hunt doves with smokers than drinkers. Actually, I won't hunt with folks drinkin' unless it is hog doggin' and no guns. Can't say no more as the statute of limitations is yet to expire on the other...

If I am alone I will use whatever prescription drugs I am on but with others, I suffer the pain as NARCOTIC drugs really impair one's ability...
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Old October 20, 2009, 10:39 AM   #36
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Quote:
My single concern, honestly, is would his intoxication be a safety concern, and if so, does the guide have a right to know. It would not be in a "ratting the guy out", nor would anyone be informing law enforcement or anything of that nature.

Just a "Hey man, whatever you do in your private time is your business, but you just can't get high before you hunt, ok?"
Bingo and thanks for bringing this back to your original post. ....


Be Safe !!!
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Old October 20, 2009, 10:42 AM   #37
Brian Pfleuger
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I wouldn't hunt with the guy because it gives the appearance, real or imagined, that I approve of his use of illegal drugs. I do not and would not approve of such things and I will not allow myself to be in a position wherein it could appear that I do. It doesn't even get to the safety question.
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Old October 20, 2009, 11:50 AM   #38
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Quote:
My single concern, honestly, is would his intoxication be a safety concern, and if so, does the guide have a right to know. It would not be in a "ratting the guy out", nor would anyone be informing law enforcement or anything of that nature.

Just a "Hey man, whatever you do in your private time is your business, but you just can't get high before you hunt, ok?"

Bingo and thanks for bringing this back to your original post. ....


Be Safe !!!
Yes, thank you; everyone keeps going back to "turn the guy in to the cops" and "what if he cheated on his taxes, would you report him for that??" etc etc, LOL.

Look, this is the point of my queston:

I hunt with this guide very often, and I consider him to a be a friend, and as such that makes me even more concerned for his safety (I would still be concerned if he was a stranger, of course), as well as for the safety of his other clients, in the future when this guy hunts with him again.

So I just want the guide to know to be able to watch out for any signs of this guy being high next time he comes hunting. NOT to turn him into the cops, NOT to bar him from ever hunting again (either with or without this guide), NOT to get all up in his business, NOT to debate the moral & legal issues, etc etc.

Because I aint no damn rat, especially when it's not something that is hurting anyone.

Hell, say he had smoked up before the hunt, then I would have politely but firmly insisted that he not come on the hunt, but there was never a thought of calling the police. I know that may ruffle the feathers of many law enforcement individuals, but that's a personal choice and it's just how I feel about it. If he does god forbid hurt someone some day, then I will probably blame myself till the day I die (which may be that same day if I don't realize he's high).

So, just simply: "Should I let the guide know to keep an eye out for his possible intoxication and / or maybe tell him before hand when he books a hunt that he must please refrain from smoking weed before & during any hunts, because it is a safety issue?"


Anyway, I made my mind up and I did call the guide and I let him know about this situation, and it turns out that the guy actually had told the guide later that day that he uses weed for his pain management!

And the guide simply stated at the time that he would like him to please not smoke any before or during the hunts, nor to bring any with him on board his boat since he would risk losing his vessel (and therefore his livelihood).

And he was very grateful to me for letting him know, as he obviously can't afford to risk any accidents to himself, his kid, his clients, or his equipment.

He has no problem with the guy coming on any future hunts; he just would like him to abstain while handling guns.

And the guy was understanding & ok with that request.

I think that all worked out nicely, yes?
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Old October 20, 2009, 11:58 AM   #39
Tom Matiska
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Personal values aside, PA general hunting regulations say no being under the influence(zero point what?..... I dunnno), and in the section on State Game Lands and shooting ranges further prohibits simple possession. His offer to share suggests his use is more recreational and less medical that he rationalizes.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/p...egulations.pdf

"....Drugs & Alcohol: It is unlawful to hunt wildlife while under the
influence of controlled substances or alcohol....."

"...... Be intoxicated, use or possess alcohol or a controlled substance...."
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Old October 20, 2009, 12:21 PM   #40
Art Eatman
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There is only one topic here: What to do, as an actual act.

What marijuana does or what booze does or "gateway" stuff or the issue of law is beside the point. Off topic.

Read Post #1. Give an answer to the question. Otherwise, don't hijack the thread any worse.

My delete key works quite nicely, thank you.
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Old October 20, 2009, 06:50 PM   #41
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Art, sorry for my part in the thread hijack. Scrap, glad things worked out ok. As far as answering your question ,the fact that you stated that the day he smoked, he acted fine and you felt safe,guess the next question would have to be is MJ legal in your state for medicinal purpose`s. If not, then you shouldn`t be hunting with him cause of the legal ramifications having an illegal narcotic and guns. When I talked to him,I`d advise him of the legal risk he`s putting everyone in(including guide) and if he continued, you would say something to the guide as he probably has the most to loose. If its legal in your state, I`d treat it as any other LEGAL narcotic. FWIW, I wouldn`t hunt with anyone thats visibly impaired whether what they were digesting was legal or not.
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Old October 20, 2009, 09:16 PM   #42
FrontSight
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Damn, maybe I didn't clarify something enough: He didn't smoke any in front of me, and I could tell (at least I think I could tell) that he had not smoked any that morning, either...
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Old October 20, 2009, 09:31 PM   #43
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I apologize for my hi-jacking as well, but I felt that discussing the ramifications, effects and politics would have helped to shine light on the situation. Unfortunately, due to political beliefs and opinions, it's easy for this topic to denigrate into a poorly vetted political debate.

It sounds like the "guilty" party was using it for medicinal purposes and didn't even use, anyway, making the point null and void. The fact of the matter is: thanks to the bill of rights we are able to voice our opinion and concern over any issues that arise in our everyday life and it takes a LARGE mistake to do something that is "unacceptable" in terms of voicing our opinions.

Scrap, do whatever you feel you need to do in this situation. You may feel the need to report this to the police on the extreme (as he is mixing potential illegal narcotics with firearms), talk to him personally (as he seems like someone you know and talking to him about may solve the problem) or you can just live with it if you're comfortable with it (as you elude to being).
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Old October 20, 2009, 09:53 PM   #44
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No apologies needed for any hijacks, guys! I just wan't getting any answers to my direct question of would you let the guide know to watch out for him in the future...

Oh, and this guys smokes it for sure, since he showed me the 3 or 4 left-over, half smoked roaches he had in his car when he offered me some.

He just didn't use any at that time or during the rest of the day (small 29 foot boat; absolutely, 100% impossible for us to not have known or seen or smelled), and I'm pretty sure he hadn't smoked that morning prior to meeting us since he was completely sober (at least he seemed to be).

But there is just no way in hell I would rat the guy out to the cops; that's just not me. Does that make me responsible for anyone he maybe hurts one day? I don't know, maybe it does; I can't tell where the line gets drawn.

It worked out ok in this instance; he told the guide himself that he self medicates and the guide asked him not to when hunting and he agreed, and the guide was thankful for the heads up, so that makes me happy.
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Last edited by FrontSight; October 20, 2009 at 10:01 PM.
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Old October 20, 2009, 10:00 PM   #45
Dr. Strangelove
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What were we talking about?

Darn I'm hungry!

I see that the deed is done already, but for what it is worth I think that you should have had a discussion with your friend and left it there. We all bring many things into the woods/water with us, poor sleep, fights with spouses, general stupidity, raging machismo, etc. All of these things effect our judgment and general demeanor. Unless the man is obviously intoxicated or otherwise unsafe even if sober, I don't see the point in outing him for being a lover of the green. If the guide can't tell he has an unsafe client, then you need to find a new guide.

Looks like your friend exceeded your expectations and already mentioned to the guide his "reefer madness", so maybe think that one over a little. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it an unsafe situation.
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Old October 21, 2009, 10:46 AM   #46
Art Eatman
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Okay. Resolved. Enough.
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