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Old October 17, 2009, 02:26 AM   #26
mrnkc130
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so what is the difference between a DIAS and a lighting link? Ive seen drawings and diagrams and even 80% complete lighting links (not sure how legal that is) but never of the DIAS for an m16 anyways. do they operate on same principal? I sure like that 7k number better than 14k!
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Old October 17, 2009, 08:03 AM   #27
Chipperman
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Lightning links (at least the ones I've seen) are Full-auto only, where the DIAS will give you Select-fire.
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Old October 17, 2009, 09:02 AM   #28
Hkmp5sd
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Here is one thing to consider when buying Lightning Links, DIAS and/or registered sear conversions....

Quote:
If the registered conversion part breaks or wears out it cannot be replaced, only repaired, if possible. BATF considers replacing it with a new part to be the new manufacture of a machine gun, and a civilian could not own it, as it would have been made after the effective date of 18 U.S.C. sec. 922(o). This wear/breakage thing is also true of the receiver on a gun where that is the registered part, but in general the receiver is less subject to wear or breakage than a small part, like a sear. Being larger, a receiver may also be easier to repair.

Bardewell's NFA FAQ


Quote:
it would just be easier for me, and permit me to get it faster if I could use a credit card for some of the purchase thats all, my marriage is worth more to me than a machine gun.
I actually went to the bank once and applied for a loan to get a machinegun. They couldn't determine how to use the gun as collateral for the loan, so they offered me a high interest rate and I turned down the loan.
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Old October 17, 2009, 12:13 PM   #29
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Skans, explain the outcome here.

Guy comes in and pays cash for a machine gun from me. I file the papers. Lock the shop, go home. Someone breaks in, steals the machine gun.

Do I file a theft/loss report with the ATF? Why or why not?
As I understand it, the BATFE Form 4 registers the NFA firearm to a particular entity or individual. That person is permitted to possess the NFA weapon and is responsible for complying with NFA regulations in that regard. It is not the same thing as a title to a vehicle. The Form 4 merely says, that as far as BATFE is concerned they will look to you as the owner of that gun. Notice that on the Form 4 the Transferor is refered to as the "registered owner of the firearm"....not the legal owner. I believe it is possible to have a different legal owner than the registered owner....and in fact this does take place when someone pays full price for the gun, no refunds, but the transfer remains pending for 4 months. During that time, you have a legal owner and a registered owner and they are not one and the same.

Legal ownership would still be determined by state law and the law of contracts as interpreted in your particular state.

In your scenario, I would say that the guy who purchased the machine gun had his gun stolen while it was in your custody and control. However, as far as BATFE is concerned, until the transfer is complete, you are responsible for reporting the theft to BATFE.
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Old October 17, 2009, 11:16 PM   #30
mrnkc130
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Quote:
I actually went to the bank once and applied for a loan to get a machinegun. They couldn't determine how to use the gun as collateral for the loan, so they offered me a high interest rate and I turned down the loan.
they must have wanted to do an unsecured signature loan, I has thought about that too but interest is higher than a credit card!

I guess if you took out a secured loan on a machine gun and defaulted on it im sure they could think of a way to reposses it, probably just dont want to mess with the paperwork, i have found a lot of banks are lazy like that, i think they forget even though you are getting a loan from them, you are the customer and they need you more than you need them.

I'm thinking I will probably just use cash I have on hand and take out a 401k loan for the remainder...seems like the best option for me, probaly a better idea than using a credit card anyways.

I looked around on the internet for a little while today looking for the DIAS and found some pictures of them and desrciptions of how they work, I also read you have to set them correctly and they need to be shimmed in place and all sorts of other stuff, seems like quite a hassle which really makes me question reliability...seems like it could be pretty tempermental.

Quote:
In terms of value, durability, and usefulness...

Lightning link < DIAS < AR-15 conversion RR < Colt M16 RR.
PTK i was wondering why you rated a converted registered reciever below a colt m16? if it was a conversion (not a married DIAS and lower) are they not the same? basically a m16 bolt and fire control group dropped into a previously semi automatic lower?

If they are cheaper I think I would rather go that way than an actual m16. Im not looking for historical signifigance of any kind, I would likely get rid of an A1 upper and old m4 style buttstock as soon as i got it anyways, i would also, if worn at all, replace the entire trigger group and bolt with a 4 position selector.

Does anyone know are you required to destroy or turn in a FA trigger group if you replace it? how many spare parts could you have laying around for it? just curious...
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Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man,the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a timehanded out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now
restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things:bread and circuses (Juvenal, Satire 10.77–81)
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Old October 18, 2009, 11:32 AM   #31
PTK
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If they are cheaper I think I would rather go that way than an actual m16.
Is the lower in spec? Is the new autosear hole anodized? Is it located correctly?


Can't really tell any of that over the internet, can you....
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Old October 18, 2009, 06:11 PM   #32
jmorris
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A here is good info on the lighting link and even shows how to set them up so they are select fire. http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html





They also have good info on the DIAS http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html




And registered receivers http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/registeredreceiver.htm

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Old October 18, 2009, 07:09 PM   #33
Mr. Davis
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Quote:
IMO, if you cannot afford to pay in full for a new toy without incurring wrath from your spouse, you probably should not buy said toy.
Not everyone who uses a credit card for a purchase is taking out a loan. I use a CC for the rewards points and purchasing protections, and pay in full each month, for example.

It would certainly be foolish to go into debt and pay 9-27% interest on a $20k machine gun plus ammo, but I don't think that's what's happening here.
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Old October 18, 2009, 07:19 PM   #34
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Quote:
It would certainly be foolish to go into debt and pay 9-27% interest on a $20k machine gun plus ammo, but I don't think that's what's happening here.

It is.

Quote:
I'm willing to pay but having that much cash on hand that my wife would let me spend on one is another issue
If she wouldn't notice it at the end of the month she wouldn't at the beginning either,
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Old October 18, 2009, 11:29 PM   #35
mrnkc130
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Quote:
It would certainly be foolish to go into debt and pay 9-27% interest on a $20k machine gun plus ammo, but I don't think that's what's happening here.
yeah that would be foolish, but i wouldnt plan on using a CC for the entire thing like I said, and im not taking to knob creek either to try and keep pace with the mini gun, 20k? not even close, maybe 6-7k.

you FA guys dont seem like you want anyone to join the party...is this like joining a snobby country club or something? I'm not poor but I also don't have 15k in cash I can drop on a gun without batting an eye lid, that doesnt mean i'm not worthy of owning one.

jmorris- thanks for the links much appreciated!

Quote:
Is the lower in spec? Is the new autosear hole anodized? Is it located correctly?
PTK- What would be out of spec? I was under the impression that all the lower's are the same, only exception I know of is the colt's with a smaller diameter front take down pin, that you can buy different pins for-what else could be different?

autosear hole annodized- Are you just talking about the hole for the trigger or the one that the hammer pivots on? is this just done to make sure the hole does not get ovaled out by the increased stress of FA? Could I take a lower that was not annodized somewhere and have that done to it?

location-I thought all the holes were in the same place on recievers that were FA of SA...are they not?
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Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man,the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a timehanded out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now
restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things:bread and circuses (Juvenal, Satire 10.77–81)
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Old October 19, 2009, 07:58 AM   #36
jmorris
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Quote:
not even close, maybe 6-7k.

you FA guys dont seem like you want anyone to join the party...
You can join the party for less than that. Once you start it's not like you can only have one. I would just start with a MAC or some other SMG that will cost less than half of what you already have and fire much cheaper ammunition. Take what is left over and start building the fund for your next toy. That plan is interest and deception free.
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Old October 19, 2009, 11:19 PM   #37
David Hineline
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Most credit cards issue checks, just write a CC check to the owner of the NFA item and the deal is done.
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Old October 20, 2009, 03:00 AM   #38
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There is also the joy of suppressed weapons as well one shoulnt have to go though life without a suppressed .22 at very least.
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Old October 20, 2009, 03:36 AM   #39
mrnkc130
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+1 on suppressed, hopefully that is what I will get for christmas from my wife, i've been dropping some hints we'll see...223 supressor is what i want 1st. i'd also like to find a 9mm suppressor that would would work with a 9mm ar and also a 9mm pistol if i can ...
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Old October 20, 2009, 01:35 PM   #40
444
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"you FA guys dont seem like you want anyone to join the party...is this like joining a snobby country club or something? I'm not poor but I also don't have 15k in cash I can drop on a gun without batting an eye lid, that doesnt mean i'm not worthy of owning one."


Since you decided to go "there", let me tell you what I think. I think you had your mind made up before you started this thread. I guess you thought everybody on here was going to tell you to go ahead and make a bad decision. When that didn't happen, you come out with that comment.
Why would it make any difference to the full auto community whether you owned a machinegun or not ? How would it effect me ?

The question you posted was more a financial question than it was a gun question. Buying anything at all on credit is almost always a bad decision in MY opinion. Personal debt is one of the biggest problems facing our society today.
Unfortunately, for most of us working stiffs, there are certain things that we just can't resonablely come up with the money to buy. Our homes and vehicles usually head the list. You end up paying a lot more for the item because you bought it on credit and you put yourself in a situation where if anything bad happens, you could lose them. But, it is pretty much agreed by our society that the added expense and risk is worth the reward. However, buying frivolous toys on credit, and at a very high interest rate at that, is a very bad idea in every way. Other than instant gratification it has no redeeming qualities at all. And in this case you are not even going to get that since you won't be taking home the gun for months. Obviously this is your decision. Obviously this is your money and your life. But, you asked our opinion on it, so I am giving you mine.

The decision to buy a machinegun at all is IMO something you need to seriously evaluate. Are you going to get as big a kick out of it as you think ? How often are you REALLY going to shoot it on full auto ? And is all that worth the money ?
Most people I know that buy a machinegun are tickled to death with it for the first couple shooting sessions. Then they get a huge kick out of showing off to their friends. But, after a few months it comes out of the safe less and less. I haven't had mine out of the safe in a year probably. We even have monthly matches which I go to about once or twice a year. The whole full auto thing just doesn't pull my chain. What does pull my chain is firing a single round and hitting exactly where I wanted to put it. I should have considered that before I bought a machinegun in the first place. I am not getting rid of it, but it basically just sits there.
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How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.

Last edited by 444; October 20, 2009 at 01:43 PM.
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Old October 20, 2009, 03:44 PM   #41
Hkmp5sd
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Quote:
I haven't had mine out of the safe in a year probably.
About the same for mine.
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Old October 20, 2009, 04:48 PM   #42
Skans
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I still get a kick out of shooting my AC556. And, it's fun to take when I go shooting with friends. I've had mine for 8 years now and I've most definitely gotten my $2,400 worth of fun out of it. But, if I had to pay $6,500 for it, I could honestly say I probably would never buy it and I wouldn't regrett it either.

The only other full-auto "gun" that I may some day get is a sear for my
FNC. That would be about $3000 for the sear and about another $800 or so for the conversion. I haven't done it that, so that aught to tell you something about where my cut-off is for gun fun.
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Old October 20, 2009, 05:42 PM   #43
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+1 to 444's comment.

If you have the money right now to buy the gun, buy it. If you want to use a card to buy it and pay it off over the next year... Don't. If you want to use the card to somehow hide the purchase from your wife, call a good divorce attorney because it sounds like you have bigger problems.

Another thing that is prohibitive about owning a machinegun is feeding it. In my experience with a 9mm subgun, I told all my friends that they could shoot it ONLY when they bought their own ammo. Sure I let a few people shoot it on my dime but 25 rounds of 9mm cost $6! Six bucks burned up in two seconds, insert another mag and burn six more. (yes 9mm costs more now) I don't know what you are looking to buy but if it is in .223 or .308... Burn fifteen bucks in two seconds...
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Old October 20, 2009, 06:42 PM   #44
444
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Willie, you indirectly brought up another good point about machinegun ownership.
You spend five minutes loading a magazine. The it is gone in seconds. Then you spend another five minutes loading a magazine, and it is gone in seconds.
I load a bunch of magazines at home and they are gone in minutes.

It gets real old, this magazine loading.

When I take somebody out that wants to shoot my gun, I am not a real big stickler on making them buy ammo. Most of them show up with ammo just because it is the right thing to do. BUT............I do tell them that if they want to shoot my SMG, THEY have to load the magazines.
Even if they bring their own ammo, we always end up shooting some of mine because they don't realize how quickly you run though a couple hundred rounds of ammo. They show up with a couple hundred rounds of ammo thinking that is enough for everybody there to shoot. They think they are going to have some fun and in turn are paying me back by letting me shoot their ammo. Never works out that way though. 200 rounds of ammo is only six mags.
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You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.

Last edited by 444; October 20, 2009 at 06:49 PM.
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Old October 21, 2009, 12:38 AM   #45
mrnkc130
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All I asked was why do most dealers not accept credit cards, I never said I was going to buy the entire thing on a credit card, or asked if that was financially wise, although i figured there would be comments about it. Nor did I mention hiding it from my wife, I appreciate the concern but I know my wife well enough, if I did hide from her we would get a divorce, I know that.

My plan was to possibly pay for part of it with a credit card, probably get a new credit card with 0% interest for a year and put 5-6k on there to soften the blow so I could get my machine gun a little sooner, I dont see the issue with that.

I didnt mean to offend anyone with the snobby country club comment that was a joke, I was just amazed at the responses telling me if you cant pay cash for one and afford 5k a year for ammo without even thinking about it that you shouldnt own a machine gun, I disagree.

As for buying it an never using it, I'm sure to some extent I will use it less over the years, but I dont think that is a reason not to get one. When I bought my 1st motorcycle I probably rode it every day, now I hardly ever ride it, still glad I have it though. I think the same is true with most toys.

Ammo- sure its expensive. But paying 1k a year for 4k rounds of steel case stuff to blow away on FA isnt that bad, hardly a reason not to get one. I plan on letting friends shoot it too if they bring thier own ammo and some for me, Im sure I can score another 500 rounds a year for free that way.

Thanks for all the input everyone!
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restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things:bread and circuses (Juvenal, Satire 10.77–81)
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Old October 21, 2009, 01:03 AM   #46
David Hineline
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Reasons for no CC acceptance, the dealer takes up to a 3% hit on the item, there is a chance you try to do a chargeback on the deal and the card company sides with the consumer,
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Old October 21, 2009, 08:49 AM   #47
jmorris
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Quote:
Nor did I mention hiding it from my wife,
That is what I understood from this quote from your first post.

Quote:
I'm willing to pay but having that much cash on hand that my wife would let me spend on one is another issue

Don’t get me wrong, I hope when I die my wife doesn’t sell my firearms for what she thinks they are worth but I don’t ask about her shoes and purses either.
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