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Old October 15, 2009, 02:56 AM   #1
mrnkc130
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Machine gun payment options....

I have begun my browsing stage for a machine gun and ofcourse the biggest issue is the cost... I'm willing to pay but having that much cash on hand that my wife would let me spend on one is another issue...My question to everyone that already has a FA is; why doesnt anyone take credit cards???? every class 3 dealer I have found does not accept credit cards, does anyone know why this is? Is there some law against it? The only guy I got to explain his policy said he once sold a bunch of guns after 9/11 and the credit card companies held his money for a few weeks or something like that so he doesnt deal with them anymore...Is this pretty much an industry standard? or did I just talk to the few dealers that dont accept credit cards? And for those of you that will say its stupid to buy something that expensive on a credit card..can I borrow the money from you?
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Old October 15, 2009, 04:44 AM   #2
JT-AR-MG42
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My guess would be

that it allows the buyer the option of backing out of the sale by simply stopping or disputing payment. I am not a dealer. I have no axe to grind.

No offense to your word or name intended here.

Having the cash on hand, or at least half of it in some cases where you are trusted, gives the dealer or seller an extra feeling of security that you do indeed intend to follow the three month process through.

If you talk to some dealers, they might have had experience with buyers who back out during the wait especially when 50% was all that was put up. Some of the reasons are good ( family illness ). But the end result is that the buyer broke his word on a sale.

Flat out, the income you put up needs to be truely disposable. I set aside the cash ( as I save it ) in the safe, and pray something more immediately interesting does not come along in the meantime.

My take, JT
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Old October 15, 2009, 07:13 AM   #3
Skans
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Here's the thing. When you purchase a machinegun, you own it from the day you bought it. The paperwork that lets you take possession of the gun may take up to 6 months to complete. And, you may find out that your CLEO won't sign off or run into other complications. Most folks would be inclined to dispute the charge on a credit card if they find out they can't take possession of the gun. Sellers and dealers can't let it work that way.

You assume the risk of being pernitted to own and possess the machinegun, not the Seller. So, if your paperwork doesn't go through for any reason, your only option is to permit the NFA dealer to sell the gun on consignment so that you can recover some of what you paid. No Seller in his right mind is going to take credit cards on this kind of purchase.
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Old October 15, 2009, 08:43 AM   #4
Willie Lowman
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There are class III dealers that take plastic. The few I could think of have gunshops that do most of their business from title 1 sales.

I wouldn't expect them to take 100% payment from plastic.
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Old October 15, 2009, 09:08 AM   #5
jmorris
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Quote:
I'm willing to pay but having that much cash on hand that my wife would let me spend on one is another issue...
You just need to get more creative with your spousal embezzlement program. If you can’t pay cash for full auto you don’t need it because you couldn’t afford to shoot it anyway.

Unless you put your ammo on plastic too then a year from now your wife finds out that you’re $20,000 in debt and don’t have anything to show for it (at least in her eyes). After the divorce you’ll sit around and try to figure out why you didn’t have better communication with your wife and just pay cash up front.
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Old October 15, 2009, 10:16 AM   #6
Skans
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You just need to get more creative with your spousal embezzlement program.
Now that's for dern sure true! (Enough said on that topic)

Quote:
If you can’t pay cash for full auto you don’t need it because you couldn’t afford to shoot it anyway.
Don't discourage the guy. Ammo cost isn't that bad. It's not like the only gun you will have to shoot is your full-auto. I go through a 1000 round case of .223 about every 2 years. Since I use Wolf poly-coated steel cased stuff, it costs me about $140 / year in ammo.

Quote:
why you didn’t have better communication with your wife....
Depending on what your CLEO is going to require, you may have to have lots of communication with the wife and be sweeter than pie. My CLEO wanted to interview my wife before signing off - SOP where I lived. I think he signed off for a guy who was a drunk and spouse abuser, and the papers spanked him for it. So, wife and neighbors get "interviewed". The very first thing you need to do, before you even look at class III stuff is have a conversation with your CLEO about the sign-off. If he won't sigh off and you are hell-bent on getting a machinegun, then the next guy you need to talk to is a lawyer who is familiar with Trusts, Corps and LLC's for NFA purchases.
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Old October 15, 2009, 12:27 PM   #7
p99guy
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most credit cards allow some form of cash draw at a bank as well, if you have to turn plastic into paper. I noticed you live just up the road from me, as I'm in Haslet. I have one of subguns.com recommended NFA dealers as a neibor if you need one.
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Old October 15, 2009, 12:31 PM   #8
mrnkc130
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Well you see I have one of those late model wives...whole different story boys.... I can get most of the cash to get one but using a credit card would mean I could probably get it sooner, without taking out a loan from my 401k or selling any of my stock, which I'm not against, its certainly seems to be a pretty good investment (not the reason I want it by the way) but not the easiest thing to convince the wife of...plus rather not get divorced.

I will have one though... wife agreed when we start building her covered arena that i could get one (should probably print something and have her sign it!!)

I have only found one class III dealer in the fort worth area... does anyone know of any in that area? or even within 200 miles or so? Looking for an m16.

also one more question for the FA owners...once i get one would i be able to get different trigger groups, I want semi burst and auto so i wouldnt want one that is just burst...
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Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man,the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a timehanded out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now
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Old October 15, 2009, 12:41 PM   #9
p99guy
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yes, you can buy different fire selection controls for your future M16...I allways prefered the original safe-semi-full.

and as said above I know a good NFA dealer local to you. My wife's main hobby is horses as well
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Old October 15, 2009, 01:24 PM   #10
Willie Lowman
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For recreational shooting, having a burst setting is like having training wheels on a Harley.

There are 4 position selectors out there for M16s but I don't know anyone who wants one.

After shooting a MP5 with the burst and auto switch I looked at the owner and asked "What's this crap between semi and full?"
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Old October 15, 2009, 02:15 PM   #11
Skans
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I have an AC556 and rarely use the burst setting. The problem with it is that if you rip off 2 rounds, the next pull of the trigger will fire only one round. It's quite easy to control your full auto fire to short bursts, or even one at a time, if I want to.
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Old October 15, 2009, 02:28 PM   #12
p99guy
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Alot of troops hate the M16A2 burst mechanism for example...it gives 3 different trigger pull weights in semi auto as the cartridge counter cycles around...and it too will shoot one round after a two round burst like the AC556. Your finger is the best mechanism going for limiting the lenth of the burst.
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Old October 15, 2009, 07:29 PM   #13
mrnkc130
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I see...semi and auto is of course the main thing i want, but i figured why not have it all if you can? i've used the 16a2 on burst in the marines but not often it wasnt a feature they let us use very much...I imagine you can get some pretty consistent controlled bursts with just auto (which i think is the most effective way to use it) but takes a little practice, ive never shot the m16 on full auto..i cant wait though...i foresee a few mag dumps at least with some wolf! maybe a beta mag too...
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Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man,the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a timehanded out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now
restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things:bread and circuses (Juvenal, Satire 10.77–81)
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Old October 15, 2009, 07:50 PM   #14
freakshow10mm
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The merchant (dealer) risks a chargeback if the buyer backs out. That costs the dealer money and the customer nothing.

The dealer is also authorized for a certain amount of processing every month. If they go over, it's an additional percentage and it's a lot. Unless they are approved for a seriously sum of transactions monthly, it will put them over the limit. Most over the limit fees I've seen are 5% over the standard 3%, so 8% of the sale price.

The NFA industry is filled with customers having champagne flavor on a beer budget. Buyers back out. Buyers get found out by their wives because they lost their balls years ago. Paying cash means your serious and committed.

Quote:
When you purchase a machinegun, you own it from the day you bought it.
Absolutely false. It isn't your gun until the 4473 has been properly executed and the transfer is completed. You don't own anything until it is out of my log book.
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Old October 16, 2009, 12:52 AM   #15
p99guy
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So do you want the contact info for the local dealer?
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Old October 16, 2009, 07:43 AM   #16
Skans
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When you purchase a machinegun, you own it from the day you bought it.

Absolutely false. It isn't your gun until the 4473 has been properly executed and the transfer is completed. You don't own anything until it is out of my log book.
That's not how it was explained to me when I purchased my AC556 from a Class III dealer. I'm not saying that you are wrong on this, just that it was made very clear to me that I legally owned the gun the minute I paid for it, but that I had no right to take possession of it or even shoot it until the transfer was completed. My understanding is that the NFA transfer laws are based on possession (which normally goes along with ownership) but not necessarily legal ownership.

Otherwise, I would think it would be fairly easy for the buyer to demand his money back if the transfer didn't go through. If you pay for something and receive nothing in exchange for your payment, I think the law will generally support your right to demand your money back, less a reasonable amount to cover the seller's costs and compensate him for the time the gun was off the market.

Based on what you are saying, if someone paid full price up front for a machinegun, and the transfer didn't go through for whatever reason, the seller could opt to keep 100% of the buyer's money and simply sell the gun to someone else. I could be wrong, but I don't think this is correct.

The way it was explained to me, if the transfer couldn't take place for whatever reason, the gun is mine to sell, but it must remain with the Class III dealer and be transfered by the Class III dealer directly to a 3rd party if/when that person gets approved.
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Old October 16, 2009, 08:43 AM   #17
ilbob
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IMO, if you cannot afford to pay in full for a new toy without incurring wrath from your spouse, you probably should not buy said toy.
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Old October 16, 2009, 10:29 AM   #18
Skans
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IMO, if you cannot afford to pay in full for a new toy without incurring wrath from your spouse, you probably should not buy said toy.
Unless you are in the lucky 1% club, you are going to incurr the wrath of your spouse for purchasing a machinegun, regardless of what you pay for it. Breaking the bank for it might just turn "wrath" into "divorce". Tread lightly, my friend. A really ticked off wife can inflict way more pain and damage than a measly machinegun.
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Old October 16, 2009, 04:01 PM   #19
FORKLIFT352
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You should look in to a "lightning link."
Some could be had for 6-8000.00.
They are used in a AR-15 and when easily installed turn
the semi function to full auto.
I read that a modified trigger group can yield any select fire
one would want.
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Old October 16, 2009, 04:26 PM   #20
freakshow10mm
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Skans, explain the outcome here.

Guy comes in and pays cash for a machine gun from me. I file the papers. Lock the shop, go home. Someone breaks in, steals the machine gun.

Do I file a theft/loss report with the ATF? Why or why not?
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Old October 16, 2009, 11:39 PM   #21
mrnkc130
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Quote:
The dealer is also authorized for a certain amount of processing every month
Thanks freakshow I figured there had to be some sort of reason like that, makes sense, sucks but makes sense why they dont want it charged...

Quote:
A really ticked off wife can inflict way more pain and damage than a measly machinegun.
Seems like you may have already met my wife at some time Skans!!

Quote:
You should look in to a "lightning link."
Some could be had for 6-8000.00.
I have been looking around for those too... never seen any for sale that were civilian transferable (just the dealer ones, $40 for 2!!! what a shame) but i have always heard they are way more then 8k, closer to 11k or so, IMO if you are going to pay that much might as well get the whole gun for a little more, plus im not crazy about just safe and auto as my only options, i have also heard the can bend and break after a while, just rather have the real thing i guess.

Quote:
IMO, if you cannot afford to pay in full for a new toy without incurring wrath from your spouse, you probably should not buy said toy.
you must be rich, really rich, me? not so much. I'm not trying to dodge or hide anything from my wife, i explained that earlier, it would just be easier for me, and permit me to get it faster if I could use a credit card for some of the purchase thats all, my marriage is worth more to me than a machine gun.
Does she like the idea of me spending that much of course not, but she has agreed that I can get one, so no need to hide it...

Quote:
So do you want the contact info for the local dealer?
yes yes i do, Im also wanting to order a suppresor from YHM very soon so that would be great i'll send you a PM thanks!

Quote:
There are 4 position selectors out there for M16s but I don't know anyone who wants one.
You know one now! as long as its straight down for burst then I think I would want one, might as well get everything that i can if im spending that kind of money, wouldnt use it much so i would want it straight down so i dont have to just flip by it all the time on the way to auto...
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Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man,the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a timehanded out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now
restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things:bread and circuses (Juvenal, Satire 10.77–81)
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Old October 16, 2009, 11:41 PM   #22
gyvel
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Quote:
You should look in to a "lightning link."
Some could be had for 6-8000.00.
They are used in a AR-15 and when easily installed turn
the semi function to full auto.
I read that a modified trigger group can yield any select fire
one would want.
All of what you mentioned sounds illegal to me.
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Old October 16, 2009, 11:46 PM   #23
PTK
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They're legal. Search for "registered lightning link" or "RLL" on subguns or Stg44 or similar. In fact, there's a bunch for sale out there right now.

http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/i...uery=retrieval

http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/i...uery=retrieval

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nf...gi?read=122315
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Old October 17, 2009, 12:12 AM   #24
mrnkc130
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Thanks for the sites PTK...I dont know how long I spent on google and never found sites like those...

anyone here have a lighting link? are they really as good as a FA trigger group?

are lighting links the same thing as a DIAS drop in auto sear? I have read about things referred to as DIAS but only ever seen pictures of things called lighting links (the metal plate with a tab) or is lighting link just the name brand?
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Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man,the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a timehanded out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now
restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things:bread and circuses (Juvenal, Satire 10.77–81)
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Old October 17, 2009, 12:59 AM   #25
PTK
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In terms of value, durability, and usefulness...

Lightning link < DIAS < AR-15 conversion RR < Colt M16 RR.
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