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Old October 3, 2009, 01:08 PM   #1
Only S&W and Me
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Attack at Night Questions

If you are physically attacked at night and struggling and in absolutely pitch black conditions....how do you know if the attacker has ability and if he has a knife, gun? Thus, the question....how do you know you have the reason to pull and fire your weapon? Would you fire or just try to defend and retreat even if you had a chance to pull your gun out?
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Old October 3, 2009, 01:14 PM   #2
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How are they attaching you if it is so dark out?
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Old October 3, 2009, 01:21 PM   #3
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First,

stay away from dark alleys, they can be hazardous at times.

In your scenario you are already under physical attack and struggling (I did tell you to stay away from the dark alleys, not?) , at this time it it sounds to me like you should have no doubts that this will result in severe injury or death (yours) and it makes little difference whether your oponents is planning to shoot, stab you or bash your skull with a rock. you need to use every means at your hands to change the situation, gun, knife, brick whatever works best and is accessible.

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Old October 3, 2009, 02:02 PM   #4
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now, i may be wrong, but if someone makes physical contact with me at night, in pitch black, there can be only two possibilities;
1) bad guy intending to do me serious bodily harm
or
2) a beautiful blonde is trying to force me to have sex with her.

either way, it's a justified shooting!
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Old October 3, 2009, 02:46 PM   #5
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If you fear for your life its time for the equalizer. Better yet avoid the situation to begin with and use a little practice called situational awareness. Your gut is your friend if it says going there is a bad idea do not go there. If you have to anyway be prepared for the worst. By the way small flashlights are cheap, fit in your pocket and are cheap insurance. Beats the dickens out of tripping over something and becoming vulnerable as you lay flat on your face with the wind knocked out of you.
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Old October 3, 2009, 02:50 PM   #6
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If we are already scuffling something pointy like my 4" German Eye that is always on my side may be quicker.
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Old October 3, 2009, 02:52 PM   #7
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There are NO assurances in the dark, EVER!

Get to the light ASAP, or, do what your adrenalin thinks is necessary, and live with the legal consequences later.

Those are your ONLY two choices if you are attacked in the dark.

There can be no other choices really.

It's dark, and you CANNOT know anything in the dark unless you feel it. By then it's too late isn't it?
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Old October 3, 2009, 03:49 PM   #8
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Very few places where there isn't some ambient light.
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Old October 3, 2009, 04:40 PM   #9
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Do an Ak47 mag dump on the aggrssor unless it is blonde and female who trying to convince you to take her on the rocket ride to the moon. In which case you surrender and do as told.
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Old October 3, 2009, 04:55 PM   #10
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Regain initiative, monitor hands or at least keep them from the bg's waist, improve position.
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Old October 3, 2009, 05:36 PM   #11
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Unless you are dragged kicking and screaming to your fate, nobody is going to be accosted in Pitch Black conditions. Nobody on This site anyway...

So the question is rendered moot, as there's never likely to be a situation where it could happen.

Who is going to be caught in the dark by someone wanting to harm them unless they come prepared, meaning, if the lights go of shoot every direction but yours and you'll be fine...
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Old October 3, 2009, 05:44 PM   #12
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As noted, . . . there are very few places people congregate that would be so pitch dark you could not see your assailant, . . . and situational awareness would not allow you to go into that place in the first place.

OTOH, . . . a few notes may be of help:

1) ALWAYS have a knife of some kind with you, . . . if you get stuck in the black hole, . . . get it ready. It can always be dropped into a pocket when you get back to the light.

2) Remember that your feet, fists, elbows, knees, head, and teeth can be potent weapons. Learn to use them, . . . and don't be afraid to bite. I know, . . . only sissies bite, . . . but if you bite him real good, . . . he'll scream real loud, . . . and that makes him a sissy too , so you're even.

3) Learn to grapple and remember that someone who grabs you will be prepared for you to try to get away, . . . if you close the distance and start grappling real good, . . . you can turn the tables, . . . especially if you have any improvised weapon to gouge his/her face with, . . . thumbs included.

May God bless,
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Old October 3, 2009, 06:12 PM   #13
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A perfect situation is entering a building where you are being stalked and the lights go out, directed by the BG for the attack.

We've all been in outdoor and indoor situations where there is no light to even see your hand. You can be at the mercy of the BG if he knows the area and really wants to kick yer azz or rob/rape you.
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Old October 3, 2009, 06:32 PM   #14
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In your case scenario, . . . IF I had the chance, . . . the 1911 would come out, I would go crouched, trying to put my back against some wall or large piece of furniture, . . . and if there was no answer to my shouted questions of who is there and what do you want, . . . rounds will probably go down range in the direction of the first definite sound that appears to be threatening.

Yes, . . . I am responsible for those rounds, . . . and yes, . . . I was in fear, your honor, for my life.

After that, . . . the lawyers can argue it out, . . . I'll still be alive if it gets this far.

May God bless,
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Old October 3, 2009, 06:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
1) ALWAYS have a knife of some kind with you, . . . if you get stuck in the black hole, . . . get it ready. It can always be dropped into a pocket when you get back to the light.
I now carry a knife in each pocket. Having a weapon that can be accessed by either hand is a lesson that has recently been brought home to me in a training scenario.
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Old October 3, 2009, 09:11 PM   #16
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If you carry a gun, carry a freakin' flashlight too. And learn to fight with both.

And even if you don't carry a gun, carry the flashlight. It makes a dandy impact weapon, as well as lighting up dark places.

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Old October 3, 2009, 09:13 PM   #17
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So the BG is wearing NVG's, I take it?

Since he's creating pitch blackness, which will blind him as well, unless he has NVG's.

Sorry, too much of a stretch.
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Old October 3, 2009, 11:38 PM   #18
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Pitch black conditions are scarce. Not rare, but scarce. As Dwight indicated, someone chopping the building power after you've entered is one possibility. I can tell you that a high-rise parking structure (4th floor) can be very dark even in the middle of a city if the lights go out.

But generally there will be some light, perhaps only enough to see fleeting shadows.

In the event of an attack just after the lights go out (you're not foolish enough to walk through pitch black spaces are you?) then one must assume the attacker has planned it that way. In which case you do everything you can to fend off the attack.

I court, I would argue that the attack, subsequent to the lights going out, indicated a premeditated plan to allow another person to assault/rob/kidnap/rape/murder me by neutralizing my self-defense ability. If I am attacked in the dark, I must presume my attacker is (a)prepared and equipped to commit violence in the dark, (b)intent on causing sufficient injury to overpower me and (c)may be armed with some kind of weapon. I will therefore defend myself accordingly.

I think it is more likely that you'd find yourself in a smaller "dark patch" of some city where your assailant had bright lights behind him. These lights may impair your ability to see if he's armed and/or conceal confederates in deep shadows cast by the lights.
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Old October 4, 2009, 07:08 AM   #19
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About the only places I can think such scenario posible is @ home or the workplace. In either place u should be familiar with the layout and thus have the advantage. Use play your advantages against your enemy's weaknes.
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Old October 4, 2009, 12:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Lee Lapin

If you carry a gun, carry a freakin' flashlight too. And learn to fight with both.
I agree.

The issue of being able to identify your target as a threat which justifies the use of deadly force is not limited to pitch dark situations only.

It could be a daytime situation where your target is back-lighted and you can not determine who they are or what they are carrying. A flashlight can help solve both situations. It is a viable option to always carry a flashlight when you carry a gun.


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Old October 4, 2009, 01:55 PM   #21
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Quote:
If you are physically attacked at night and struggling and in absolutely pitch black conditions....
You're not going to take the time to pull a light and identify your attacker
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Old October 4, 2009, 05:45 PM   #22
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No but a light may stop you from running blindly into an attacker. Boogermen don't like light.
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Old October 4, 2009, 06:29 PM   #23
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Scream I have AIDS, and I can assure the BG won't want any part of you or your blood, assuming he doesn't already have it. I never go into pitch dark areas, I also have 2 mid sized LED lights in each vehicle in case I get home and the outside light is off as well as lights on the key chains. Light is our friend and the BG's enemy.

As far as in my house I only keep one dim night light on in my kitchen. I also have 2 dogs to wake us up in case of an attempted intruder, I say attempted because if he or she is unlucky enough to make it inside, I'll be saving on the dog food bill for a while.
I think situational awareness is the element of survival, and even that is no guarantee.
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Old October 4, 2009, 06:32 PM   #24
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Don't know about the rest of the Country, but in Florida, if you are in fear of your life, you can defend yourself with deadly force.
It is not necessary that you determine the exact extent of the capabilities of your attacker.
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Old October 4, 2009, 10:35 PM   #25
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Here's my question

As I read through this thread, I began forming a question more specifically than Comncents and Dannyl did in the first two replies to the original post and almost asked by Mannlicher
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
Don't know about the rest of the Country, but in Florida, if you are in fear of your life, you can defend yourself with deadly force.
It is not necessary that you determine the exact extent of the capabilities of your attacker.
Most jurisdictions in this country require you to have a reasonable belief you life is in imminent danger, that your attacker has the intent/will to carry out the danger and the means to do so.

If your vision or other senses is/are impaired (by darkness, blowing dust, having been sprayed with something, whatever), how certain does your determination have to be that all three elements are present?

Sounds like the situation will dictate what the "reasonable person", so often asked by juries for advice, would think.

A specific imagined scenario. I am walking to my car in a parking garage and pass someone coming the other way. No other people around. He seems unthreatening. As we pass each other the flower in his lapel squirts pepper spray in my face. (OK, the delivery is unimportant. I just don't want to admit I could be taken unawares.) I cannot see now, and my other senses are not much help on account of the pain overload on nervous system and thought processes.

What can I explain later, in the light of day and cool rational thought, such as is found in a courtroom, grand juty, my official statement to investigating officers, this forum or my priest, what my thought processes were between the time I got sprayed and the time I pulled out my

1) gun
2) knife,
3) keychain kubo-tan, sap or other sub-lethal weapon
4) taser

and used it?

What additional facts would be required to justify use of any of those devices by a person rendered sightless?

Knowing that the correct answers will be different in Texas tham in California or Massachusetts, please do not denounce anyone's answers. Right now, I will be satisfied if we can all agree on the question.

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