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Old September 15, 2009, 07:50 PM   #1
Crunchy Frog
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Dumb statements about Browning Citori

I almost posted this as a reply to a thread about the dumbest things you've heard said in a gun store, but since it is shotgun-specific I thought I would vent here.

Over the years I have heard several stupid things said about the Browning Citori O/U. Not sure what it is about this gun that seems to bring out the clowns, but I can't think of another single gun that has bred more dumb statements (although a .45 cal. 1911 may run second place).

First, I don't know why someone with enough money to buy a Citori can't figure out how to pronounce it, but I have heard several people refer to it as a Browning "Century".

The next one is sort of an little quirk. When people discuss Browning shotguns, particularly older models like the A-5, they often refer to the shotgun as a "Belgium Browning". Yes I know, they were made in Belgium, and apparently some people think that is prestigious (I don't know of anything else good made in Belgium except for waffles). My question is about grammar. One should say "Belgian Browning", n'est-ce pas? I am going to shut up about that and open a bottle of France wine.

Finally, I have heard a fair share of misstatements and lies about the Citori. It is a perfectly fine shotgun in its own right without owners and sellers making up stuff. The other day I was in a small gun store (where one might expect to encounter a knowledgeable owner) looking for a skeet gun. The guy pointed out a Citori that he had "on sale" (still way overpriced) and told me it was the only way to go. After all, "I've had one for years that was made in Belgium, before they started making them in China." What a load.

I think the Citori is a fine product, I just can't figure out why they seem to generate such silly statements.
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Old September 15, 2009, 08:17 PM   #2
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Lazy and/or stupid come to mind.

The Belgian Brownings are highly valued because FN is recognized as one of the great gun manufacturers of the world and that's the company that John Moses Browning personally selected to build his guns.

Of course, Miroku is also a pretty darn good gunmaker as well. It's just that "Made in Belgium" sounds like old-world craftsmanship while "Made in Japan" sounds like assembly line craftsmanship.

I'm plenty happy with my Made in Japan Browning 425. 15 years and many thousands of rounds on the sporting clay range without nary a hiccup.
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Old September 16, 2009, 09:55 AM   #3
Dave McC
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As near as I can tell, the ones made in Japan are as good in finish and tolerances as the Belgians. Wood may be slightly better on the Euro guns, but it's close.

As for how to pronounce "Citori", just be glad they don't call it a "Shottie"

That's my tooth grinder....
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Old September 16, 2009, 11:00 AM   #4
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"Shottie", "Remmy", "Browny", "Mossy"........:barf:

IMO, what separates the Belgian from the Japanese Brownings are the barrels.....the Belgian ones seem to ring like a bell, have fine balance, and excellent fixed chokes that pattern very well and true to constriction

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Old September 16, 2009, 11:20 AM   #5
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Citori

I've had shotguns that cost 10 times as much as a Citori. I've had shotguns I swore handled quite a bit better. But I've never had as deadly a shotgun on game as the 16 gauge Citori line. I've probably owned 7-8, pretty much every model, and they are killers. Foolish me I've sold them all off. I shoot them better on game than any shotgun I've owned. If anyone reading this has a 16 ga. Citori of any age, or condition, or model, they are selling. Please PM or email me at mes228@msn.com I have cash, also have several long guns I'd trade.
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Old September 16, 2009, 11:47 AM   #6
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I only have 9 Browning Citori's in the safe currently ( all Miroku guns ..) 6 in 12ga, 1 20ga, 1 28ga, 1 .410 .... / I'm feeling under-gunned ..... ( but there are a few BPS pumps, a semi-auto ....

and only 7 1911's ) ...

so I guess I have the "misunderstood line of guns" covered .....
----------------

a Browning isn't the best Skeet gun out there ... I'll reserve that for a Kolar or Krieghoff, with a 2nd carrier barrel, and a full set of Briley or Kolar tubes for the sub-gagues.... and I count 27 models in Brownings Citori lineup of guns these days .... but the Citori XS Skeet, with adj comb, is a very good gun for the money. But it is too bad that more gun shops don't really understand the complete line of Citori's / how they are best utilized ...so they can really help their customers ( but then, that's why we have a forum too )...
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Old September 17, 2009, 06:26 PM   #7
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"Yes I know, they were made in Belgium, and apparently some people think that is prestigious (I don't know of anything else good made in Belgium except for waffles)."

Sounds like a personal problem and certainly a lack of research on your part.

John
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Old September 17, 2009, 09:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
(I don't know of anything else good made in Belgium except for waffles)."

Sounds like a personal problem and certainly a lack of research on your part.

John
It has nothing to do with shotguns, and very little with waffles, but every time I see something about Belgian superiority (or inferiority), http://zapatopi.net/belgium/?woo comes to mind.

DC
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Old September 18, 2009, 03:14 AM   #9
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45 Colt and Crunchy Frog,
I happen to think my Belgium made Browning is superior to my Japanese made Browning. I enjoy both of them though.

People also used to think things stamped Made in the U.S.A. were superior but aparently not anymore. I still believe they are though.
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Old September 18, 2009, 12:05 PM   #10
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If I were to comment on the Belgian-made Citori the guy in the gun shop was talking about, it would probably hurt his feelings. Browning Citoris are made in Japan, and have always been made in Japan. The Belgian O/U shotgun was called the Superposed. They are essentially the same design except for ejector cocking mechanism, the forearm metal, and forearm latch. Production was switched to Japan in the early 1970s due to the cost of labor in Europe. While I have never owned a Superposed, I own Citoris, and I like them a lot.

As far as other Belgian-made Browning shotguns, the A-5 from Belgium and the Japanese A-5 compare very nicely. The Japanese A-5 has a bit better metal fitting but is slightly heavier due to the barrel proportions where the removable choke screws in. The Japanese A-5s also have too much wood in the stocks, making them handle like a club. Not to knock Japanese manufacturing, they don't own and shoot firearms, how were they supposed to know?

Oh, by the way, it's pronounced "sit O ree", and it's a made-up word. Supposedly, the VP of Marketing for Browning was sitting in a "meeting" with the Japanese VPs trying to decide what to call the gun to differentiate it from the Superposed, and was writing sounds on his cocktail napkin when he came up with the word (another three-beer idea).
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Old September 18, 2009, 07:48 PM   #11
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OP here (no, not the kid from Mayberry). Post was tongue in cheek but still managed to offend so here are the apologies du jour.

Sorry to all our friends in Belgium. I'm sure you produce many quality, um.. non-waffly stuff. No offense intended. Hey, the HQ of the World Court makes it home in Belgium. Although I have always wondered why the city rates an article. It's called "the Hague". In the States we don't have "the Denver"; the UK does not boast "the London". Then again there is "La Paz" so perhaps it's not so unusual.

Big "sorry" to owners of Belgian made Browning products. Rightful pride in Old World craftmanship is yours. I once owned a Hi-Power that (I think) was stamped "made in Belgium". Does that make amends? OK, probably not.

Big thanks, though, to Scorch for providing the origin of the monkier "Citori". That's a good story.
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Old September 18, 2009, 08:25 PM   #12
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The Hague is in The Netherlands, not Belgium....
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Old September 18, 2009, 09:30 PM   #13
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See, they really are two different countries.



And a Citori is no Superposed. And I like the rib on the Superposed better, too.
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Old September 18, 2009, 09:37 PM   #14
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I like the Belgian barrels - much thinner, swing great, ring like a bell - they are well-struck and well regulated. (The Citoris are also well-regulated). Being fixed chokes, Belgian barrels can be more readily made thinner which means they swing FAST.....
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Old September 18, 2009, 09:40 PM   #15
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Please entertain the new guy for a second...

Im guessing it goes Citori like "Sitory" ??

I don't know, and I don't want to be that guy that is at the gun store making a fool of himself...
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Old September 19, 2009, 09:46 PM   #16
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I've had a Citori Lightning Feather 12-gauge for several years, and it is a great handling and shooting gun.

Funniest thing I ever heard was an older friend of mine who was in the market for a new shotgun remarked one day in all seriousness,
"I'd like to have me one of them "Browning Clitoris". I didn't have the heart to straighten him out; still not sure he ever figured out the difference...
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Old September 23, 2009, 03:58 PM   #17
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newbie here, and I know nothing about a Browning Citori, other than how to pronounce it, so I may be ahead of a few.

My question is this:

A guy has a 12 guage Browning Citori (Belgium made) that he is thinking about selling and threw out $7 to $800.

I have not seen the gun yet, says its in good shape.

With my limited knowledge of this gun, could I assume it is a fixed choke gun?

Probably a mod/Full.

Barrel length would possibly be 28, maybe 30? is that possible.

What about chambering, would this be a 2 3/4 only, or did they standardly come with a 3 inch chamber?

I'm thinking about rounding up the cash.
What say you?

Thanks,
R
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Old September 23, 2009, 04:06 PM   #18
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I'm thinking that if it is great shape with NO salt wood, then that would be a good price, and yes they would be fixed chokes - that does NOT mean you can't have the chokes opened a notch or two if M/F is what they are and that is too tight.

Post pics when you get it
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Old September 24, 2009, 10:02 AM   #19
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I see some mention of "salt wood" in some sales info online. Can someone explain what I am to be looking for?

Does anyone know if it would be chambered for 3" or not?

TIA
R
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Old September 24, 2009, 10:55 AM   #20
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A discussion of "salt wood"

http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTec.../8-Dec-02.html
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Old September 24, 2009, 12:21 PM   #21
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If it is chambered for 3 inch shells, it will say so on the barrel
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Old September 24, 2009, 12:52 PM   #22
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The problem with the Citori being made in Japan is that Japan doesn't have a history of turning out some of the world's best guns. Also, Japan is a very anti-gun society, Belgium has earned a reputation for fine old-world craftsmanship with regard to firearms. So has Italy. Russian companies have been making guns and shotguns for years - but they don't have a reputation of making anything top quality.

The bottom line is that, while Citori makes a decent shotgun, I don't feel that there is anything all that special about them that would cause me to pay top dollar for one. If I can't get one for a deep discount, I'd prefer to have something else like a Beretta. Why would I want to support Japan's firearms industry when they aren't offering me something truly outstanding - either in price or in quality?
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Old September 24, 2009, 01:21 PM   #23
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Quote:
Japan doesn't have a history of turning out some of the world's best guns.
It doesn't??? Well, let me name a few: Weatherby, Winchester, Browning, Nikko, Howa . . . need I go on? Besides, they just make the Citori to someone else's specification and design.

Quote:
Japan is a very anti-gun society
Agreed. But what does that have to do with the quality of their steel and machine tools industry?

Quote:
Belgium has earned a reputation for fine old-world craftsmanship with regard to firearms. So has Italy.
Yes, and yet both nations have turned out some of the most poorly-made firearms ever seen.

Quote:
The bottom line is that, while Citori makes a decent shotgun, I don't feel that there is anything all that special about them that would cause me to pay top dollar for one.
Citori does not make a shotgun, it is a shotgun, a model of over/under shotgun, to be exact. And the price asked for a Citori is not top dollar, it is actually a very reasonable price when you consider the amount of time and labor it takes to make an O/U shotgun. If you want top dollar, buy a Merkel or a Perazzi. They will set you back several times the cost of a Citori. A Beretta that costs less than a Citori will shoots loose within a few thousand rounds, go back and look at the Citori at that time.

Quote:
I see some mention of "salt wood" in some sales info online. Can someone explain what I am to be looking for?
"Salt wood" is wood that has been dried by applying salt to the outside of the wood during drying and curing to accelerate the process. After WWII, the large supplies of walnut had been used up (the weapons industries had gobbled up everything), and curing the wood takes many years, so people tried to figure out how to make walnut lumber quickly. Salt curing worked well for furniture wood, so why not firearms stocks? FN guns made after 1960 used walnut that had been cured using salt, and these guns were notorious for rusting below the stock line. Japanese Brownings use aged walnut from the US, and "salt wood" should not be an issue.
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Old September 24, 2009, 01:29 PM   #24
BigJimP
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You should buy what you want... but I'll stack a Japanese ( Miroku ) made Browing up against any Beretta made...shell for shell, fit, finish, etc ...

I primarily buy Browning because the guns fit me / and typically the Beretta does not. Is there a difference in the 2 mfg's / sure .... is it significant, no. Personally, I think the Citori line of guns from Browning is a stronger gun than most of the line of guns offered by Beretta - but that can be debated.

The gun the OP is discussing - with fixed chokes - in my area is worth somwhere between $ 650 - $ 750 probably in good condition.

My primary Brownings for hunting, Skeet and Sporting clays ...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...1&d=1253816818
One in 12ga, one in 20ga, one in 28ga and one in .410 - all Browning Citor XS-Skeet models with 30" barrels ...

My primary Trap guns
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...7&d=1235590418
Browning XT-Trap models 32" barrels / one with upgraded wood, Gracoil on it.

They're not real fancy guns / but all 6 of them have many thousands of shells thru them - and they'll all last well into 2 more generations of shooters in my family when I'm ready to give them up.
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Old September 24, 2009, 02:00 PM   #25
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Are you telling me that a Japanese Citori retains its resale value on the used market as well as a Beretta? We're not talking high end shotguns here, just the garden variety that most people tend to buy. Why is it that most rentals tend to be Beretta White Onyxes (at least from my observation) if these guns shake apart after a couple thousand rounds?

The bottom line is just tell me why I'd consider a New Japanese Citori over a New Beretta in the same general price range (+/- $400, because if I'm spending $2,000+ on a shotgun, I'm not going to worry too much about price differences of a couple hundred dollars). Please, convince me.
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